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Derek Cunningham

Origin of Writing

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Just wondering if anyone is interested in discussing the origin of writing.

It appears that many ancient paleolithic stones etched with linear patterns can be considered "writing" as the lines draw very specific astronomical values

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/09/reinterpretation-of-the-lebombo-and-ishango-tally-marks-evidence-of-advanced-astronomical-studies-in-paleolithic-era-bones/

Below is a link to a study of early Chinese text

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/07/30/preliminary_analysis_shang_dynasty_bones_eclipse_prediction/

and this is a link to a study of cuneiform

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/06/11/analysis-of-mespotoamian-cuneiform-writing-comparison-wit-ogham-and-pictish-writing/

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I've always thought it came out of the very early trade systems and mathematics.

Basically, you go from having "IIIII" to mean "Five Things" to "OOOOO" to mean "five oranges" rather then ""JJJJJ" to mean "Five Bananas", giving us "O" for "Orange" and "J" for banana if you will. You're not jsut counting "things" but counting and grouping specific things.

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I've always thought it came out of the very early trade systems and mathematics.

Basically, you go from having "IIIII" to mean "Five Things" to "OOOOO" to mean "five oranges" rather then ""JJJJJ" to mean "Five Bananas", giving us "O" for "Orange" and "J" for banana if you will. You're not jsut counting "things" but counting and grouping specific things.

Yeah, it's no coincidence writing evolves just after the rise of agriculture and the concomitant expansion of trade. In any case, depsite Line's but of pseudo-history hooey, there's not an iota of evidence linking ogham and anything written in Sumerian cuneiform.

--Jaylemurph

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Barry Fell would have loved those links.

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Barry Fell would have loved those links.

As with everyone else who thinks "mass comparison" is a real research method...........

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`I must agree with Jay, writing is a byproduct of commerce,not a byproduct of mumbo-jumbo transmitted by oral tradition.

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jaylemurph

Posted Yesterday, 08:55 PM

snapback.png

Sir Wearer of Hats, on 10 November 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I've always thought it came out of the very early trade systems and mathematics.

Basically, you go from having "IIIII" to mean "Five Things" to "OOOOO" to mean "five oranges" rather then ""JJJJJ" to mean "Five Bananas", giving us "O" for "Orange" and "J" for banana if you will. You're not jsut counting "things" but counting and grouping specific things.

Yeah, it's no coincidence writing evolves just after the rise of agriculture and the concomitant expansion of trade. In any case, depsite Line's but of p...

I dont know about that one.

http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20527504.300-oldest-writing-found-on-60000yearold-eggshells.html

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jaylemurph

Posted Yesterday, 08:55 PM

snapback.png

Sir Wearer of Hats, on 10 November 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I've always thought it came out of the very early trade systems and mathematics.

Basically, you go from having "IIIII" to mean "Five Things" to "OOOOO" to mean "five oranges" rather then ""JJJJJ" to mean "Five Bananas", giving us "O" for "Orange" and "J" for banana if you will. You're not jsut counting "things" but counting and grouping specific things.

Yeah, it's no coincidence writing evolves just after the rise of agriculture and the concomitant expansion of trade. In any case, depsite Line's but of p...

I dont know about that one.

http://www.newscient...-eggshells.html

I'm not argiung there wasn't a long run-up to formal writing through an evolving proto-writing, but it's pretty clear that trade was the spark that fuelled the explosion of writing in its complete, advanced form.

--Jaylemurph

Edited by jaylemurph

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Just wondering if anyone is interested in discussing the origin of writing.

It appears that many ancient paleolithic stones etched with linear patterns can be considered "writing" as the lines draw very specific astronomical values

http://www.midnights...thic-era-bones/

Below is a link to a study of early Chinese text

http://www.midnights...pse_prediction/

and this is a link to a study of cuneiform

http://www.midnights...ictish-writing/

QUOTE:

I have always been fascinated by the possibility of really ancient writing, if that's what the next really is:

p033-03.gif

Words or numbers?

These painted pebbles from Mas d'Azil are typical of an art form known from south-western and southern France, the Pyrenees and southern Italy. Their excavator, Edouard Piette, first identified such pieces in 1889. They date from a phase at the very end of the last Ice Age called the Azilian, between 12,000 and 10,000 years ago.

Azilian pebbles are simply coloured and/or decorated with paint made from red ochre (iron peroxide). It was probably most often applied from the artist's fingers. The decorations include the dots, borders and bands of colour seen here, as well as zig-zags, ovals and dashes. About 1400 pebbles like these were found at Mas d'Azil. Their excavation proved that paint could survive in the ground for thousands of years. They also helped to end doubts that the first paintings discovered on the walls of caves such as Altamira really were the work of even earlier Stone Age artists.

Piette suggested that the painted motifs may be signs representing words or numbers, as in writing. Recent research suggests that the marks may not be random. The signs represented only occur in 41 of a possible 246 combinations. This might suggest that their arrangement represented words or numbers.

http://www.britishmu...ed_pebbles.aspx

=

Paul G. Bahn M.A., Ph.D. and Claude Couraud

Available online 26 August 2004.

Abstract

The end of the Ice Age (c. 9–8000 BC) in the French Pyrenees and other European areas is characterised by, among other things, the production of enigmatically decorated pebbles. Many theories concerning their function have been put forward. A recent analysis indicates that the decoration is non-random, and may represent some sort of notation.

http://www.sciencedi...160932784900784

http://www.unexplain...05#entry4004487

Edited by Abramelin

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I'm not argiung there wasn't a long run-up to formal writing through an evolving proto-writing, but it's pretty clear that trade was the spark that fuelled the explosion of writing in its complete, advanced form.

--Jaylemurph

Not mentioning the language barrier that they had to cross in order to be able to keep books right on both sides heh.

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Not mentioning the language barrier that they had to cross in order to be able to keep books right on both sides heh.

Traders never really had a problem with foreign language.

You want to earn money in a foreign country? You'll have to learn the language, or your competitor will before you do.

.

Edited by Abramelin

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Yep also the adapting between languages made other languages :)

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Yep also the adapting between languages made other languages :)

Not so much. It might account for some loan words shared between the languages, but the sound changes that constitute real change in language aren't typically triggered by the process of shared vocabulary: Latin didn't become French because it borrowed a few words from Gallic or Celtic, but it did when the Latin case system collapsed.

--Jaylemurph

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In response to post #9

Money? Seems logical.

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Hmm I'm also thinking a possibility as to how art was used to detail events and stories through cave painting. Perhaps they conceptualised the storytelling through a different means. Even without trade and such, I don't see the possibility of even communication through written symbols at the least to be completely impossible.

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Hmm I'm also thinking a possibility as to how art was used to detail events and stories through cave painting. Perhaps they conceptualised the storytelling through a different means. Even without trade and such, I don't see the possibility of even communication through written symbols at the least to be completely impossible.

I would of thought it was about expression over money..

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I was wondering.....

If trade was the impetus for writing as you said.... Wilgie Mai is an ancient mine in Western Australia that is often associated with trade. It is at least 30,000 to 40,000 years old.

Ochre from this specific mine was found in other regions with much better grade ochre.....

This has stumped archaeologists as there appears to be no physical reason why people would have traveled hundreds of kilometers to obtain ochre from this specific mine when they were locally sitting on much better sources.

Sooooo the suggestion is that quality alone was not the primary driving force, and that there may perhaps some religious reason attached.

Astronomy and ancient religion often go hand in hand......

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Agree that trade was where modern writing originated but the OP was asking where it may have began! (edited, wrong word)

In my culture, writing was frowned upon as a weakness for the mind but used in 'Rune' form to lay down a 'spell' of Law when dedicating a new village or any village.

The 'Law' was accepted when one chose to live there and those who disagreed were free to leave when able to do so or expelled, hence the proliferation of sub-tribes.

Edited by mumanster

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Most really early writing seems to be lists of mundane things. That I take as a good clue.

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Hmm I'm also thinking a possibility as to how art was used to detail events and stories through cave painting. Perhaps they conceptualised the storytelling through a different means. Even without trade and such, I don't see the possibility of even communication through written symbols at the least to be completely impossible.

I, too, have long been fascinated by the (possible) relationship between petroglyphs/petrographs/early cave art and the development of written language. I have no answers, only interest.

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Additional data now supporting the theory that archaic lines were drawn to represent astronomical values is now uncovered in the Stonehenge Heritage Park....

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/13/presence-of-astronomical-writing-on-the-bush-barrow-lozenge/

The Bush Barrow Gold panel has numerous lines on it that have not been adequately explained by any other prior theory.

The lines once more align to astronomical values linked to the measurement of time and the prediction of eclipses.

...and going back to the circa 30,000 year time frame there exists two bones found in Africa (the Lebombo and Ishango bones) both show alignment to the exact same angular values, as does a circa 30,000 year old Venus sculpture found in Europe and a circa 30,000 year old recently marked stone uncovered at Shuidongguo in China. The three links are shown below.....

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/09/reinterpretation-of-the-lebombo-and-ishango-tally-marks-evidence-of-advanced-astronomical-studies-in-paleolithic-era-bones/

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/11/10/study-of-astronomical-text-on-the-dolni-vestonice-venus-figure/

http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2013/01/28/analysis-of-the-astronomical-data-contained-within-the-engraved-stone-uncovered-at-the-shuidonggou-paleolithic-site-northwest-china/

Regarding a link to counting the Ishango and Lebombo bones are both considered to be examples of "Tally Sticks" that some archaeologists believe were employed to count the lunar month.....

So you have the link to counting and astronomy in the Ishango and Lebombo bones....and though controversial, many are quite happy to accept that....

but somehow....later.... when evidence for counting is seen.....it is automatically assumed that it must be to do with trade.

These papers listed above are the first to say wait on a second.....

.....the various samples are all aligned to the same angular array.

If the values are assumed to be astronomical you have a direct link to the physical study of eclipses.....which is something that most associate with ancient religions.

And this takes you to the Bush Barrow Lozenge http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/Bush-Barrow-Lozenge-Astronomical-Writing.png

which shows identical astronomical values to the Orkney Venus figure found in Orkney...http://www.midnightsciencejournal.com/2012/12/11/analysis-of-the-orkney-venus-evidence-for-a-global-civilization/

Other samples uncovered in Orkney show identical values, such as samples uncovered at Skara Brae.

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Are pictographs true writing?

I know it is argued they are a form of writing, but I would argue that true writing is an abstraction of what is represented - and pictographs are not an abstraction but a pictorial representation. They are art, but not - to my mind - writing.

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Are pictographs true writing?

I know it is argued they are a form of writing, but I would argue that true writing is an abstraction of what is represented - and pictographs are not an abstraction but a pictorial representation. They are art, but not - to my mind - writing.

I referred to them as precursors to writing, and asked whether or not petroglyphs, pictographs and even cave paintings could be building blocks towards writing. Nordic runes would be a more "advanced" form of written communication translatable as a language. I'm suggesting there may be transitional forms, as in evolutionary theory buttressed by fossilized finds. It's a heory. I am no expert.

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I referred to them as precursors to writing, and asked whether or not petroglyphs, pictographs and even cave paintings could be building blocks towards writing. Nordic runes would be a more "advanced" form of written communication translatable as a language. I'm suggesting there may be transitional forms, as in evolutionary theory buttressed by fossilized finds. It's a heory. I am no expert.

It seems likely.

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Frank....

Do you now of any petroglyphs showing linear grid-like patterns in Vietnam?

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