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RavenHawk

Late Term Abortion vote

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Looks like the Late Term Abortion Ban was defeated tonight. With 80% reporting, *Against* leads with 54%. This should really shake things up, especially following the consensus to allow same-sex marriage.

http://www.sfgate.com/news/medical/article/Early-votes-oppose-Albuquerque-abortion-ban-4992583.php

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/19/albuquerque-abortion_n_4301860.html

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I'm pro-choice, but I don't think lethal abortions should be allowed past the stage where the fetus could survive on it's own outside of the womb. After that time, doctors should try to save the fetus with all available medical attention and send the bill sent to the mother. I don't think it should take 5 months of growing to decide to have an abortion.

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The public is getting more and more liberal on social issues: this is happening worldwide as religions lose their hold.

While I generally like the consequences, late-term abortions to me push the edge. We might as well also allow infanticide.

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It was banning abortions that are after 20 weeks of pregnancy. That seemed reasonable to me.

But I think what it is is that alot of hardcore pro choice people see any limit on abortion as a plot to ban all abortions

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It was banning abortions that are after 20 weeks of pregnancy. That seemed reasonable to me.

But I think what it is is that alot of hardcore pro choice people see any limit on abortion as a plot to ban all abortions

Agreed. It's just symptomatic of the entire political process in the US - giving an inch equals defeat.

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I'm VERY Pro-Choice and I don't think that "late term abortions" should be allowed except in certain cases. It appears that this laws ONLY exception is if the mother's life is in danger. I believe this is the issue with the law/ban. I would have also voted against this law because of this, NOT because I support late term abortions.

Albuquerque residents are voting Tuesday on a ballot measure that would ban abortions in the city 20 weeks after fertilization based on the disputed idea that fetuses feel pain at that point. The ban makes an exception for situations in which the mother would die without the abortion, but has no exceptions for fetal anomalies discovered late in the pregnancy, for situations in which the mother's health is severely affected by the pregnancy, or for victims of rape or incest.

Nibs

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There are a fair number of people walking around I would like to see aborted. But babies are innocents so I give them a pass.

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Looks like the Late Term Abortion Ban was defeated tonight. With 80% reporting, *Against* leads with 54%. This should really shake things up, especially following the consensus to allow same-sex marriage.

http://www.sfgate.co...ban-4992583.php

http://www.huffingto..._n_4301860.html

I'm confused. What do late term abortions and same-sex marriages have to do with each other?

Nibs

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I am NOT pro-abortion, but I AM pro-choice because I see no way around it. It is another's body and at the mercy of legal and biological definitions. But I have a lot of questions:

How late is late-term? Up until labor commences? A woman could postpone labor.

What percentage of abortions are performed due to anomalies or health issues or rape/incest?

And how does the rape/incest exception actually work? Do I need to have filed a police report against someone?

Is there actually a law that says I (physicians) cannot legally end a pregnancy at any time if my life (physical or psychological) is in immediate danger? My friend was diagnosed with hormone receptive breast cancer in the 90's and was told to end her pregnancy by several doctors. There was no "law" issue brought up. And likewise, what if I attempt suicide due to being pregnant with a relative's or rapist's child? Or suffer debilitating psychological trauma? Am I (physicians) actually legally prevented from ending my pregnancy at any point?

My physician would legally have to watch me die or send me home to die if ending my pregnancy (at any point) is the answer to saving my life and my choice? This is how the law reads today? And my physician would lose her license or whatever?

Edited by QuiteContrary

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I'm confused. What do late term abortions and same-sex marriages have to do with each other?

Nibs

They are both necessary concepts in the modern world? :unsure2:

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But I think what it is is that alot of hardcore pro choice people see any limit on abortion as a plot to ban all abortions

and they might be right, just as right as progun ppl see any restriction\control mesure, a step towards total ban and confiscation.

same principle here.

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Abortion is child sacrifice. It must be banned.

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I'm pro-choice, but I don't think lethal abortions should be allowed past the stage where the fetus could survive on it's own outside of the womb. After that time, doctors should try to save the fetus with all available medical attention and send the bill sent to the mother. I don't think it should take 5 months of growing to decide to have an abortion.

This is where the confusion lies. Most late term abortions are of deformed fetuses and it’s not until the late term before it’s discovered that there are problems. These are children that would survive with extreme handicaps. And in nature would probably not live much longer after birth. Death is a part of life and should be an option available. Life is sacred because we have a balance between life and death. All life should have a chance to live but it should also have its choice of death.

I’m pro life but I’m more anti big government. Government should not dictate to parents on what burdens they decide to take on. Why burden the parent with a responsibility that will expend way too many resources. Most of these children are a drain on society, not a blessing. And the pain that they (and their guardians) experience during their lives can be unbearable but there is no escape for them. That serves no one any benefit. There is no quality of life. The compassionate thing to do is mercifully end the life now and free the soul. What’s the difference between a deformed fetus that is born and a deformed fetus that is stillborn? The body of the one born hasn’t died yet.

Now with that said, don’t misunderstand. There are some parents that can handle such a challenge to raise a deformed child and find great fulfillment in that. The child will know love and caring. And that will benefit everyone around. It’s the difference in the parents and what they can handle. And no government should force all parents into the same situation. Not all parents are capable to deal with any situation. Nature is not Socialist. There are no equal outcomes in nature. Everyone has equal opportunity.

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I'm confused. What do late term abortions and same-sex marriages have to do with each other?

Rights! Non infringement by the government. It is not the government’s place to set laws regarding morals and free choice. Our government is secular, the nation is Christian. The government is not the nation.

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The public is getting more and more liberal on social issues: this is happening worldwide as religions lose their hold.

The people need to be liberal on social issues, not the government. As dogma loses its hold, faith will increase.

While I generally like the consequences, late-term abortions to me push the edge. We might as well also allow infanticide.

If it becomes legal then so be it. But for now, fetuses do not hold legal status for the most part, unless a pregnant woman is killed. That’s a bit of sarcasm. When we as a society decide to give fetuses legal status, then abortion will change. But when it does then we will be confronting the choice of euthanasia. But whatever it is, it will be in the realm of the people to decide.

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It was banning abortions that are after 20 weeks of pregnancy. That seemed reasonable to me.

But I think what it is is that alot of hardcore pro choice people see any limit on abortion as a plot to ban all abortions

Well, it's just like the gun issue in that sentiment then. Give an inch, they take a mile.

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I've noticed on this particular issue, the loudest (not in this discussion forum, just in general in the U.S.) tend to be the least experienced with these issues (just like the gun topics).

If you would like some insight, check out this discussion; http://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/sl93q/get_out_the_throwaways_dear_parents_of_disabled/

I'll warn you, it has a lot of feelings being let out, it can be a tear jerker.

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Abortion is child sacrifice. It must be banned.

No, it is not sacrifice, but it is killing. But what is the difference between a fetus of 21 weeks that is aborted and a fetus of 3 weeks that dies naturally?

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Abortion is child sacrifice. It must be banned.

But... but... if we ban it then the gods will be mad and the crops will fail.

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what is the difference between a fetus of 21 weeks that is aborted and a fetus of 3 weeks that dies naturally?

It's the same difference as the difference between murder and dying of natural causes, even if a fetus isn't nearly as important as a child or adult in the minds of some people. If we kill a developing person surely it's not the same magnitude as killing a person, but the difference is exactly the same because it's the difference between causing death and not causing death.

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It's the same difference as the difference between murder and dying of natural causes, even if a fetus isn't nearly as important as a child or adult in the minds of some people. If we kill a developing person surely it's not the same magnitude as killing a person, but the difference is exactly the same because it's the difference between causing death and not causing death.

Is it? Do we have a legal definition of life? I believe that life begins with the sperm and egg but that is hardly a legal definition. But when does the Spirit enter the body? Before conception? During development? before birth? Or after birth? When? The point that I was trying to make is what happens to the person of a miscarriage? That person is no longer alive. It doesn’t matter how they died, they are still dead. A miscarriage is not necessarily natural. If the pregnant woman does something not necessarily on accident that causes a miscarriage, is this natural? Did the mother commit murder? Or was the child already deceased? Life begins naturally all the time in the animal kingdom. As far as procreation goes, we are no different than the simplest animal. The vast majority of time, that life does not take. Abortion is but a fraction of this discharge of biological material.

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Abortions are necessary; the social consequences of not allowing them are bad all over the place. Like everything, though, that doesn't mean reasonable regulations cannot be put in place, and a rule about late-term abortions (not an absolute ban but some special procedures for special cases) seems reasonable.

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Is it? Do we have a legal definition of life? I believe that life begins with the sperm and egg but that is hardly a legal definition. But when does the Spirit enter the body? Before conception? During development? before birth? Or after birth? When? The point that I was trying to make is what happens to the person of a miscarriage? That person is no longer alive. It doesn't matter how they died, they are still dead. A miscarriage is not necessarily natural. If the pregnant woman does something not necessarily on accident that causes a miscarriage, is this natural? Did the mother commit murder? Or was the child already deceased? Life begins naturally all the time in the animal kingdom. As far as procreation goes, we are no different than the simplest animal. The vast majority of time, that life does not take. Abortion is but a fraction of this discharge of biological material.

Yes, in that case, the Mother committed murder. I rarely agree with Yam, but I have to here. Life is indeed precious, and there ought to be good reason to so much as consider abortion, and that decision should be made immediately, not late term. Reasons do exist I grant. I am not entirely sure that personal preference is a good enough reason though.

Does not matter how they died? What??? So ia a family member fell off a cliff, to you that is the same thing as a family member being tortured and raped until death occurs? Yes it all means dead, the point being, it does not have to mean that at all.

The spirit? WTF? If you are going to talk legal definitions, leaving the supernatural at the door is a good idea as well.

What good can possibly come from late term abortion? How is that not simply offering more time for one to decide if they want parenthood or not?

Sorry, I do not see any reason for such cold and evil law. It's just a license to kill I reckon.

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Abortions are necessary; the social consequences of not allowing them are bad all over the place. Like everything, though, that doesn't mean reasonable regulations cannot be put in place, and a rule about late-term abortions (not an absolute ban but some special procedures for special cases) seems reasonable.

Would not special conditions already be in place? If a pregnancy puts a mothers life in grave danger, then an abortion would be considered surely.

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Would not special conditions already be in place? If a pregnancy puts a mothers life in grave danger, then an abortion would be considered surely.

Yea that sort of thing. I haven't really worked it out in my head what all would be in such a regulation, but I would certainly oppose a rule banning an abortion when the mother's life is at risk. The problem I see here is that such a loophole would almost certainly be abused.
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