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LostSouls7

Do you do your will? Or God's will?

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Let's go back in the time I grew up in a church. I won't say which one, but like many churches they say don't chase desires or money. And just go spread the word of God, and that is the only purpose. Supposely that is doing the will of God or try to convert as many people to Christian as you can right?

I was not very happy there. The way I saw it the church just got more rich and powerful. And I was slavery away doing what I didn't want to do.

Now all the Jesus and end of the world stuff could be true. It could be a clever plot to just control people.

Either way I am now much more happier now doing magick.

Mostly I am one with nature, and I meditate and feel God in my soul.I

don't think i need a church or leader to feel close to nature and creation.

I also now do what makes me happy and am now finally reaching my dreams and will.

But according to the church I am evil. They will say I worship devils and am pure evil.

I also don't follow any offcial group or anything.

I am still somewhat affilated with the church.

However I do things my way and it has been working out.

I am happy doing as I wish and getting what I want as long as I dont hurt others

or commit crimes etc.

I don't see the harm. Oh but those peskey church control systems.

If you watch harry potter oh no that's evil!

You are going to hell. That is how they see it.

For the first time I feel happy and free.

and now I am not a satanist. I see that as just a reverse of Christianty...

which tries to hard to rebel and is just another set of rules and control.

I suppose I wrote my own philisophy and it's working out for me.

I suppose as long as I am happy and doing well it's what counts in the end right?

But what about all of you? Do you do the will of the church or God as they say?

Or your own will?

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I do my best to do things purely by my own will, because I often feel that there is a source (if some people want to call it God, they will) to all of us, and it is learning through us. When I think this way, I feel an obligation to simply live life the way I choose, as if someone was watching the story, waiting to see what happens next.

But in reality, I end up spending nearly all of my time being like the vast majority of us all: choosing everything I do based on what other people might think of me. Free will choked, and individuality bowing to mostly imagined mass acceptance. A bunch of walking nervous wrecks who should be free, doing what we want.

Edited by _Only

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I think sometimes people do judgmental things out of their own bile and convince themselves it's God's will.

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you cant know this. you can think you are executing your will but how can you prove that.

For example, in islamic verses there is 'protected plate' (Levh-i mahfuz) where every memory, every creature, every place, that happened or will happen in time is "recorded." So they are already known or something.

Edited by thyra

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I do the best I know how and pray for guidance or realisation when I am confused. I don't know God's will exactly, I know what people have interpreted as and I enjoy Jesus' teachings in the bible but to say I would do God's will would mean he would have to tell me what that is for me.

Sometimes we think we are doing "God's will" by following what someone tells us is required thru dogma but we can just as easily be doing the will of just another person with hidden and secret agendas, it is my biggest problem with religion - the way people can use it to judge others or fascinate folk into thinking a particular version of dogma is the real and only deal - everyone but them go to hell, what a very special type of pleading that is, bah humbug.

Sometimes we think others are going against God's will yet in everything in life there is a cause and effect and this so called sinner can just as easily be the innocent that was corrupted by the evil of others - it's those others who have the price to pay and perhaps this so-called sinner is the one that is going to be making sure the accounts are balanced. We really never know do we? We can paint a situation black or white but can we ever really claim to know which it is or even if it's a special shade of grey? No, we can't know.

I think the best is to treat everyone as though they are doing the best they can based on what they know and when they know better then they will do better, in the end we are all in this together.

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I'm not sure I'm qualified to address your concern. On one hand you describe an institution that is there to steal your money, and in the other you describe an escape. I've read Harry Potter, several times, and so have many of the friends I went to church with. It seems you're describing a group of people that want to squash your individualism, and replace it with their beliefs. I totally disagree with such, and therefore have not been in such a controlling environment.

It appears that "God's will" and "your denomination's will" seem to be incorrectlycontrasted here.

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People do themselves a disservice when they judge the entirety of Christianity by the actions of one church.

For my life, I have chosen to serve God in the way that He tells me to. I have the overall direction of God's will - to help Christians grow, and to help the lost to find God - and I have specific goals that He guides me to achieve. My life is extremely fulfilling, and being in the presence of God brings more satisfaction than temporary hedonism.

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People do themselves a disservice when they judge the entirety of Christianity by the actions of one church.

For my life, I have chosen to serve God in the way that He tells me to. I have the overall direction of God's will - to help Christians grow, and to help the lost to find God - and I have specific goals that He guides me to achieve. My life is extremely fulfilling, and being in the presence of God brings more satisfaction than temporary hedonism.

For one thing, there are a lot of non-Christians who have fulfilling lives satisfied and who are not hedonists. A second thing, I don't think Christianity gets judged by the behavior of just one denomination; it is more the general pattern of behavior through history that generates the adverse judgments when they are made. Finally, you strike me as inordinately self-satisfied, such as that you are telling yourself something over and over just to be sure it is true.
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People do themselves a disservice when they judge the entirety of Christianity by the actions of one church.

For my life, I have chosen to serve God in the way that He tells me to. I have the overall direction of God's will - to help Christians grow, and to help the lost to find God - and I have specific goals that He guides me to achieve. My life is extremely fulfilling, and being in the presence of God brings more satisfaction than temporary hedonism.

When I judge christianty negatively it's not because of the actions of one but the shared actions of manythat are often similar and pnned on 'god's will'.

God's will by your definition seems qute selfish and self serving. Helping others, being kind and loving doesn't even rank highly enough to be listed. Like those churches defiition of good's will yours doesn't em like a positive force for good either.

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For one thing, there are a lot of non-Christians who have fulfilling lives satisfied and who are not hedonists. A second thing, I don't think Christianity gets judged by the behavior of just one denomination; it is more the general pattern of behavior through history that generates the adverse judgments when they are made. Finally, you strike me as inordinately self-satisfied, such as that you are telling yourself something over and over just to be sure it is true.

1. I made a statement about my own life, not about the lives of others, be they believers or not.

2. A general pattern of behavior still does not accurately reflect all churches. The church that I am in has not grown in wealth and power. Our pastor works full-time as a maintenance man; no riches there. Neither does the church dictate the way I should live.

3. If there is any self-satisfaction, it comes from myself having made choices in my life. No, I am God-satisfied, and I do not have to tell myself that over and over. There is no convincing needed; I grew out of that stage when I first met God decades ago.

When I judge christianty negatively it's not because of the actions of one but the shared actions of manythat are often similar and pnned on 'god's will'.

God's will by your definition seems qute selfish and self serving. Helping others, being kind and loving doesn't even rank highly enough to be listed. Like those churches defiition of good's will yours doesn't em like a positive force for good either.

I am aware of the negative judgement as you proclaim, but it has no personal bearing on me, so I am not worried about it.

I am curious as to how you read selfishness in my statements. "Helping others, being kind and loving" doesn't rank? What list are you talking about? "Helping others" isn't a positive force for good?

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I am aware of the negative judgement as you proclaim, but it has no personal bearing on me, so I am not worried about it.

I am curious as to how you read selfishness in my statements. "Helping others, being kind and loving" doesn't rank? What list are you talking about? "Helping others" isn't a positive force for good?

It's my experience that people that assume it has no bearing effectively turn a blind eye to it, which is why it's become a problem. 'Good people' do nothing becaause it has no bearing on them.

God's will reeks of selfishness on his part (in your cse, not on yours, but I've seen examples of it). Here are the things you listed above as being part of god's will:

1:to help Christians grow

2:to help the lost to find God

3: Specific goals that he 'guides you to achieve'

Out of those three helping others isn't listed, nor is kindness or being loving. That's why I said they didn't rank, because they're not even mentioned in the top three of the things you describe. Those things are,of coure postive frces for good,which is what concerns me when it comes to god's will. People that follow god's will seem to either ignore those traits or become very selective with them. God's will seems far more selfish, concerned with getting more people to follow god and consolidate that power.

Edited by shadowhive
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I do the best I know how and pray for guidance or realisation when I am confused. I don't know God's will exactly, I know what people have interpreted as and I enjoy Jesus' teachings in the bible but to say I would do God's will would mean he would have to tell me what that is for me.

Sometimes we think we are doing "God's will" by following what someone tells us is required thru dogma but we can just as easily be doing the will of just another person with hidden and secret agendas, it is my biggest problem with religion - the way people can use it to judge others or fascinate folk into thinking a particular version of dogma is the real and only deal - everyone but them go to hell, what a very special type of pleading that is, bah humbug.

Sometimes we think others are going against God's will yet in everything in life there is a cause and effect and this so called sinner can just as easily be the innocent that was corrupted by the evil of others - it's those others who have the price to pay and perhaps this so-called sinner is the one that is going to be making sure the accounts are balanced. We really never know do we? We can paint a situation black or white but can we ever really claim to know which it is or even if it's a special shade of grey? No, we can't know.

I think the best is to treat everyone as though they are doing the best they can based on what they know and when they know better then they will do better, in the end we are all in this together.

Wise words, Libstak. Ones I agree with.

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As to th OP, I'm glad you got out of that church. Such a controlling environment is not good for anyone, but sadly it seems a common part of religion.

God's will is a strange concept really. Religion seem to use it as an excuse to treat people badly or to call things evil. People's personal responsibility bcause negated. They do bad things, but it's not their fault, they're just doing god's will. I've heard those words used to justify anything from letting abusing a child, to bullying and murder and everything in between. It's horrible really. I've seen the flipside too, people shifting the good deeds of others to god's will as well, negating the good thosee people do because god gets the praise.

Personally, we should all take responsibility, not use god as an excuse because it's very easy for god's will to become a controlling factor not just in one person' life, but in groups like your congregation.

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God's will reeks of selfishness on his part (in your cse, not on yours, but I've seen examples of it). Here are the things you listed above as being part of god's will:

1:to help Christians grow

2:to help the lost to find God

3: Specific goals that he 'guides you to achieve'

Out of those three helping others isn't listed, nor is kindness or being loving. That's why I said they didn't rank, because they're not even mentioned in the top three of the things you describe. Those things are,of coure postive frces for good,which is what concerns me when it comes to god's will. People that follow god's will seem to either ignore those traits or become very selective with them. God's will seems far more selfish, concerned with getting more people to follow god and consolidate that power.

1. To help Christians grow (and)

2. To help the lost to find God. This includes standing beside them through tough times, letting them vent their feelings, offering them support and encouragement, helping pay bills due to financial tragedy, sitting in an ICU waiting room, and the like.

3. Specific goals. Real example: being in the right place at the right time to prevent a teenager from making a very self-destructive decision.

Do those examples not fall under the category of loving and kindness?

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1. To help Christians grow (and)

2. To help the lost to find God. This includes standing beside them through tough times, letting them vent their feelings, offering them support and encouragement, helping pay bills due to financial tragedy, sitting in an ICU waiting room, and the like.

3. Specific goals. Real example: being in the right place at the right time to prevent a teenager from making a very self-destructive decision.

Do those examples not fall under the category of loving and kindness?

The problem with 2 is that the goal isn't to help them, but it's under the banner of 'helping them find god'. That always strikes me as, well. You're not helping those people for the sake of it, or for them, but have the ulterior motive of 'helping' them find god instead. Which just sounds, well not good.

Edited by shadowhive
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1. To help Christians grow (and)

2. To help the lost to find God. This includes standing beside them through tough times, letting them vent their feelings, offering them support and encouragement, helping pay bills due to financial tragedy, sitting in an ICU waiting room, and the like.

3. Specific goals. Real example: being in the right place at the right time to prevent a teenager from making a very self-destructive decision.

Do those examples not fall under the category of loving and kindness?

Some of this falls under moral guidance and this is typically taught early in the home, it is taught in many small ways, such as responding to a child's cries.(this teaches a child how to value others feelings.) So when you say helping someone who is lost what exactly are you saying. It seems to me you are trying to instill what has not been given at some point and then in some cases offering humanitarian help for others.

Edited by Sherapy

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The problem with 2 is that the goal isn't to help them, but it's under the banner of 'helping them find god'. That always strikes me as, well. You're not helping those people for the sake of it, or for them, but have the ulterior motive of 'helping' them find god instead. Which just sounds, well not good.

Your assumption is incorrect. I do not do those things for the purpose of evangelism, but rather for the purpose of meeting needs. The choice to find God is their choice, not mine. Meeting needs is not done to groom a victim; instead it is done out of compassion for people.

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Your assumption is incorrect. I do not do those things for the purpose of evangelism, but rather for the purpose of meeting needs. The choice to find God is their choice, not mine. Meeting needs is not done to groom a victim; instead it is done out of compassion for people.

You put those things under a category of your choosing. That category was not helping people, nor meeting their needs, but it was helping the lost find god. Now you're trying to say putting those things in that category has nothing to do with what that category is called. I must say that doesn't make all that much sense. So which is it? Do you do those things to meet peoples needs (a you claim now) or to help the lost find god (as you originally cliaimed)? Because there is a difference. One is motivvated by compassion the other is merely grooming them to become another follower.

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I am not lost, I'm on a journey.

But what about all of you? Do you do the will of the church or God as they say?

Or your own will?

Will of a church or organized religion, NO, I am my own guru. The will of God..., in around about way. My own will, I am says I... Pantheism is where philosophy and religion get complicated. Everything is God including myself, if I am doing my own will, than I am doing the will of God. Same for the cat, for she is God also. If I want a good and kind God. then it is up to me to be good and kind. As far as helping the lost find a god, I might dust you off and put you on the trail, but you have to find God or what ever yourself, Your life is your own, how you live it is your choice in the end.

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You put those things under a category of your choosing. That category was not helping people, nor meeting their needs, but it was helping the lost find god. Now you're trying to say putting those things in that category has nothing to do with what that category is called. I must say that doesn't make all that much sense. So which is it? Do you do those things to meet peoples needs (a you claim now) or to help the lost find god (as you originally cliaimed)? Because there is a difference. One is motivvated by compassion the other is merely grooming them to become another follower.

The one falls under the broad category of the other. Yes, we are charged with enlarging the kingdom of God. We are motivated by our compassion for people, not for simply adding numbers. (When I say “we”, I refer to both the church I am affiliated with as well as other churches that I am aware of. It does appear that there are other churches whose purpose appears to be amassing numbers for numbers’ sake. Are they being good stewards of their resources? I don’t know. Are some of those pastors living high on the hog? It would appear so. I find their motivation questionable.)

Secularists tend to be unable to see a Christian’s point-of-view, or even acknowledge that we have a point-of-view. If a person does not have the presence of God in their life and the promise of an afterlife, then we want to provide them the option of choice. We can’t force or coerce a person to become a Christian; it has to be a personal decision. We just make the choice available.

Along with offering a spiritual resource, we offer a physical resource when possible. My church is small—we have 14 regular attenders—so our funds are limited. However, we have provided groceries, made a car payment, bought clothes and diapers, and so on. We do so because we care.

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but like many churches they say don't chase desires or money.

Thats it, end of reading any further.

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The one falls under the broad category of the other. Yes, we are charged with enlarging the kingdom of God. We are motivated by our compassion for people, not for simply adding numbers. (When I say “we”, I refer to both the church I am affiliated with as well as other churches that I am aware of. It does appear that there are other churches whose purpose appears to be amassing numbers for numbers’ sake. Are they being good stewards of their resources? I don’t know. Are some of those pastors living high on the hog? It would appear so. I find their motivation questionable.)

Secularists tend to be unable to see a Christian’s point-of-view, or even acknowledge that we have a point-of-view. If a person does not have the presence of God in their life and the promise of an afterlife, then we want to provide them the option of choice. We can’t force or coerce a person to become a Christian; it has to be a personal decision. We just make the choice available.

Along with offering a spiritual resource, we offer a physical resource when possible. My church is small—we have 14 regular attenders—so our funds are limited. However, we have provided groceries, made a car payment, bought clothes and diapers, and so on. We do so because we care.

This is untrue, a secularist can choose not to assume your POV while at the same time be able to see that you have one. In a sense you are offering blue sky, correct?

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This is untrue, a secularist can choose not to assume your POV while at the same time be able to see that you have one. In a sense you are offering blue sky, correct?

Notice that I did say "tend" and not "always". And I'm sorry, but I don't understand what you mean by "offering blue sky."

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The one falls under the broad category of the other. Yes, we are charged with enlarging the kingdom of God. We are motivated by our compassion for people, not for simply adding numbers. (When I say “we”, I refer to both the church I am affiliated with as well as other churches that I am aware of. It does appear that there are other churches whose purpose appears to be amassing numbers for numbers’ sake. Are they being good stewards of their resources? I don’t know. Are some of those pastors living high on the hog? It would appear so. I find their motivation questionable.)

I agree, I find those that are just interested in money to be highly questionable and that they are far more concerned with their own greed than helping others.

In general, it seems that you are interested in amassing numbers. Not necessarily got your own church, but to follow your god. (Enlarging the kingdom as you put it.)

Secularists tend to be unable to see a Christian’s point-of-view, or even acknowledge that we have a point-of-view. If a person does not have the presence of God in their life and the promise of an afterlife, then we want to provide them the option of choice. We can’t force or coerce a person to become a Christian; it has to be a personal decision. We just make the choice available.

I recognise that christians have a point of view, but it's not a good one. There's a lot of the christian teaching that is quite disturbing.In a christin's eyes a person that doesn't follow your god (sometimes even narrower, if they don't follow what your denomination says) they are valueless. It's a christian's job to 'save' people, becaue no matter how good they are if they don'/t follow your god they have no value to it.

Coersion seems to be a very big part of christianity. Sometimes it's fear based, sometime it's 'love' based, but either way the intent is to make non-believers believers. The only difference is the method and how far they're willing to go with it.

However the promise of god in someone's life or an afterlife is hardly original. There have been hundreds of religions throughout human history offering the exact same thing. (Hell, you can find virgin births and children of gods all over he place.) Should we be dependant on a god? Should the promise of a afterllife matter all that much? And, of course, the two aren't mutually exclusive. I believe strongly in an afterlife, but not in a diety.

Along withoffering a spiritual resource, we offer a physical resource when possible. My church is small—we have 14 regular attenders—so our funds are limited. However, we have provided groceries, made a car payment, bought clothes and diapers, and so on. We do so because we care.

A physical resource is often more important than a spirtiual one. It's good that you help and I hope it is because you care.

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I freely choose, using my own free will, to do god's will as best as I can know and understand it, because this is more productive for me and for my society than not following his guidance . After all, he is even older and wiser than I am. :innocent:

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