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wuhugm

The existence of God can never be proven

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What spawned this thinking was the 3rd of Clarke's laws :

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic"

or miracle in that sense, which is true

Just imagine if someone with Star Trek's technologies, no, even current technologies appeared thousand years ago. They will easily replicate Prophets' miracles like it was nothing and even more. People didn't believe human could fly, when Heliocentric first proposed everyone laughed, and nobody could imagine things like laser, nuclear, and stuffs would appear.

So, what does that have to do with the existence of God?

Simple, People in the past believed in God because those miracles and divine punishments were unthinkable to be done by any other entity but God. But now we know better, we could replicate even greater destruction than Noah's Flood or Sodom's Destruction by spamming nuclear bomb over the surface. So we know that other entities can do whatever God did in the bible and maybe even also greater things like advanced civilizations in SF stories.

Then imagine that someday an entity come down from the sky, shining brightly, and claim itself as God. Would you believe it? hmm, I don't know, show us what you can do.

Then it destroyed a mountain | Big deal... we can do that hundreds time over

Then it healed injured people | Insta Surgery? Chikung? Nanomachine?

Then it caused tsunamis | Seismic weapon? Gravity Manipulation?

Then it asked what it should do to make us believe | we answered, "hell if I know"

The problem is exactly that, we will never know whether that entity is actually Real God or maybe Alien, Wizard from different dimention, Esper, Ultimate evolution of consciousness or whatever.

Maybe the answer of God existence will only be revealed to us in After Life? When we are resurrected for judgement.

But wait, what if it was like Matrix and this is only a simulated world?? Oh *****!!!

Edited by wuhugm

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Hello wuhugm, welcome to UM.

While I agree with your premise, that the existence of god can never be 'proven', the evidence supplied to support the existence of such a being - even as just a possibility - is all singularly flawed.

This flaw is that all of it is anecdote. None of it was written by someone who actually witnessed the events described. And, there is no supporting evidence for these events other than this anecdote. Therefore, to grant the events that provide this evidence actually occurred is unsupportable - and the 'logic' that these events lead to a possibility of god is, likewise, based on hearsay only.

It is a thought-experiment, based on what may be a fictitious premise - rather than a statement of truth.

Edited by Leonardo
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The end times?

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@Rlyeh : Judgement Day, After Life, Apoclypse, whatever you might call it, if it will ever happen

@Leonardo :

Yahoo

wouldn't that make Religions on the same level as folklores and myths?

so rather than inconsistencies and miraculous events recorded in the bible, we must considered the fact that the entire book might be fiction? That's kinda... sad

But anyway, people of the past need God (yes, it was us that needed God, not the otherway around) because there were so many things they couldn't do, like praying for bountiful harvest and strength to conquer enemies, but what about now? As technology progresses we need God less and less.

Now, rather than using time for sacrificing goats for succesful war, people would choose to use the time to buy more missiles.

And myself personally rather than leaving the fate of my enemy to God, I would put my faith into more bullets to the head

Seems we are heading to an age where it doesn't really matter if God's existence can be proven or not

Edited by wuhugm

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Great article, I think anything is possible in our universe, but we aren't capable of discovering huge things yet alien life, interstellar travel etc, we will get to those sometime but a god or a higher power

power.....

I deem it possible since we can have alternate universes...

I hope I were able to make my point :)

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@Leonardo :

Yahoo

wouldn't that make Religions on the same level as folklores and myths?

so rather than inconsistencies and miraculous events recorded in the bible, we must considered the fact that the entire book might be fiction? That's kinda... sad

But anyway, people of the past need God (yes, it was us that needed God, not the otherway around) because there were so many things they couldn't do, like praying for bountiful harvest and strength to conquer enemies, but what about now? As technology progresses we need God less and less.

Now, rather than using time for sacrificing goats for succesful war, people would choose to use the time to buy more missiles.

And myself personally rather than leaving the fate of my enemy to God, I would put my faith into more bullets to the head

Seems we are heading to an age where it doesn't really matter if God's existence can be proven or not

Possibly, but I would place the existence of god in the same category as the existence of any other subject of a thought-experiment.

Take the thought-experiment that is Schroedinger's Cat. Did the cat actually exist? Was the experiment actually performed?

On an intellectual level we concede it may have - just as on an intellectual level we might concede the god(s) of many of the world's religions might exist. But all out instinct and reason tells us that Schroedinger's Cat did not exist in actuality, but was an invention (perhaps a metaphor) to illuminate a point Schroedinger was making. Likewise, we might use our instinct and reason to conclude the god(s) various people spoke and wrote of did/does not exist, but was also a metaphor or invention meant to illustrate a different 'truth'.

The 'truth' these god(s) are meant to be illustrative of may be profound, so to suggest their non-existence except as thought-concepts is "sad", perhaps does not do justice to what they were/are invented to represent.

Edited by Leonardo
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We have the nearby thread, A Question for all Skeptics, which touches on similar concerns. You might want to check that out.

Clarke's rule restates, with some flair, a sober reality: a supernatural assertion cannot be established by a natural observation. (See how much better Clarke's version was? That's why he made the big bucks.)

A natural observation of an unusual perforamnce can, however, be a reason for me to pay more attention to some people than others. However he did it, naturally or supernaturally, Jesus eventually agreed, after Satan had explained it to him, that free food and lots of it is a great way to attract a crowd.

Does the free food mean that Jesus is God? No, of course not, there are other explanations. And, I haven't actually gotten any free food. As Leo rightly points out, I have gotten a second-hand story about somebody else, a third party, who supposedly got free food long, long ago in a desert backwater far, far away. Which leads us to:

Eight bits' corollary to Clarke's Law

Any sufficiently impressive magic story is indistinguishable from science fiction.

John and Stranger in a Strange Land, for instance.

Finally, it is not obvious that my being dead is going to make it any easier to prove something to me.

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Great article, I think anything is possible in our universe, but we aren't capable of discovering huge things yet alien life, interstellar travel etc, we will get to those sometime but a god or a higher power

power.....

I deem it possible since we can have alternate universes...

I hope I were able to make my point :)

By the point humanity are able to do those things, they would already be splendid "Gods" themselves, maybe even terraforming planets and seeding life all over the galaxy. And to those lives broughtforth by humanity, their God would be us humans. But if humans were actually creations themselves then to which God they should worship? :D

I don't know about alternate universes, though it seems to occur at subatomic level (Double Slit Experiment), but probably not at macroscopic lever nor it's ever observable

Possibly, but I would place the existence of god in the same category as the existence of any other subject of a thought-experiment.

Take the thought-experiment that is Schroedinger's Cat. Did the cat actually exist? Was the experiment actually performed?

On an intellectual level we concede it may have - just as on an intellectual level we might concede the god(s) of many of the world's religions might exist. But all out instinct and reason tells us that Schroedinger's Cat did not exist in actuality, but was an invention (perhaps a metaphor) to illuminate a point Schroedinger was making. Likewise, we might use our instinct and reason to conclude the god(s) various people spoke and wrote of did/does not exist, but was also a metaphor or invention meant to illustrate a different 'truth'.

The 'truth' these god(s) are meant to be illustrative of may be profound, so to suggest their non-existence except as thought-concepts is "sad", perhaps does not do justice to what they were/are invented to represent.

Yes, God can very well be a subject of Thought Experiment having both probability of His existence and non-existence

The problem is God was not an invention of a single person, every civilizations devised similar existence throughout history, and I never heard of any Atheistic civilization. This happened without interactions between civilization, not only like Greek and Rome which were influencing each other.

I'm feeling sad for religious people for their God being reduced to mere concept for I was one.

@8 Bits :

Will do~

The funny thing is giving free food in a particular era will indeed promote you to be God

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In ancient Sumeria about 6,000 years ago each city state had their own Gods.Many people prepared feasts on a daily basis to offer up to these Gods.The sacrifice meals would be brought to the Temples, and the well fed priests would receive them.

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In ancient Sumeria about 6,000 years ago each city state had their own Gods.Many people prepared feasts on a daily basis to offer up to these Gods.The sacrifice meals would be brought to the Temples, and the well fed priests would receive them.

Wow~ Exactly how much different the mental capacity of current humanity and them from back then?

But shiieet, only few thousand years needed for humanity to advanced to this point, compared to the age of universe, it's weird we haven't seen any space faring civilizations, unless humanity is actually the earliest intellectual creature.

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In ancient Sumeria about 6,000 years ago each city state had their own Gods.Many people prepared feasts on a daily basis to offer up to these Gods.The sacrifice meals would be brought to the Temples, and the well fed priests would receive them.

interesting. I always thought that someone who is into spirituality would forget to feed themselves on the daily basis. :) it is good they did that.

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We have the nearby thread, A Question for all Skeptics, which touches on similar concerns. You might want to check that out.

Clarke's rule restates, with some flair, a sober reality: a supernatural assertion cannot be established by a natural observation. (See how much better Clarke's version was? That's why he made the big bucks.)

A natural observation of an unusual perforamnce can, however, be a reason for me to pay more attention to some people than others. However he did it, naturally or supernaturally, Jesus eventually agreed, after Satan had explained it to him, that free food and lots of it is a great way to attract a crowd.

Does the free food mean that Jesus is God? No, of course not, there are other explanations. And, I haven't actually gotten any free food. As Leo rightly points out, I have gotten a second-hand story about somebody else, a third party, who supposedly got free food long, long ago in a desert backwater far, far away. Which leads us to:

Eight bits' corollary to Clarke's Law

Any sufficiently impressive magic story is indistinguishable from science fiction.

John and Stranger in a Strange Land, for instance.

Finally, it is not obvious that my being dead is going to make it any easier to prove something to me.

Unless you happened to be there. Then of course you will quite easily distinguish reality from anecdote, But what the observable reality really represents requires back stage understanding of what is actually happening as you observe; hence clarke's law, that advanced science is indistinguishable from magic even to one who is there to observe it .

I do tend to agree that, for someone like myself, it would have to be extremely advanced technology for me not to recognise it as such and know that it was not miracle or magic. I find it hard (after 6 decades of reading science fiction) to imagine anything which I would not think of as a form of technology. We are heading to a point where technology is invisible to the person using it, and unless you know it is there you will not be able to see it, or recognise its existence.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Don't care if he's real God or not. Don't care if he can popup and black hole out of nothing or not. As long as he

- loves a stranger unconditionally with all his heart and like his son

- be able to heal people instantly, resurrect people, help people in need (doesn't matter the method used)

- punish the bad (doesn't matter the method used), as long as I can witness when I'm still alive

Then I will take him as my God :innocent:

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Haha, yeah, we actually don't need God who created universes, do we?

We need God that answers our wishes :D

Those 2 might be the same but more often not

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Is the entire point of intellectualism solely to reduce one's own suffering by ensuring that nothing will ever deceive him?

The evidence of God is in the fulfillment of His promises among His people. It's come to that because creation wasn't enough to point to God, as many cultures found it fit to worship things He created rather than the Creator Himself. It's spelled out in the Bible.

As my pastor pointed out today, signs and miracles always follow the preaching of the Gospel, not precede it. Jesus didn't come doing miracles first and then preaching. So He doesn't satisfy philosophical demands for empirical evidence. Nonetheless, as long as His Gospel is preached, you'll never get away from it. And I have a feeling that if you shut the mouths of His people, the earth itself would cry out.

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Is the entire point of intellectualism solely to reduce one's own suffering by ensuring that nothing will ever deceive him?

The evidence of God is in the fulfillment of His promises among His people. It's come to that because creation wasn't enough to point to God, as many cultures found it fit to worship things He created rather than the Creator Himself. It's spelled out in the Bible.

As my pastor pointed out today, signs and miracles always follow the preaching of the Gospel, not precede it. Jesus didn't come doing miracles first and then preaching. So He doesn't satisfy philosophical demands for empirical evidence. Nonetheless, as long as His Gospel is preached, you'll never get away from it. And I have a feeling that if you shut the mouths of His people, the earth itself would cry out.

Dude! you're right!

Miracles never was used to create Faith but instead to reinforce Faith

hoho, then believing in something because it shows us miracle is a wrong order, not a believer or religious at all, simply logical.

Deep...

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Logical? First someone tells a story, then someone likes it and writes a book. They have to sell the book, so they build on the story, Kind of like telling how big a fish was, it keeps getting bigger or how many there was in this case. Then if you can sell people on the idea and the story, you got a religion. Whether or not the story is true is irrelevant. Look as the stories of Norsemen, the Irish and the Welsh, magic and miracles abound, it our nature to crave drama and things out of the ordinary to save us from our mundane lives of mucking out the stall, cutting wheat and feeding the chickens. Life before electric was rather boring.

Charlie Brown Christmas is on and it's time to put up the tree.

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I disagree Green.

First, the ancient culture wasn't capitalistic. Second, stories revolved around societies as a whole, not individuals who wanted to make a profit.

Third, the ancient aliens theory has a point. Why all the stories of heavenly beings? Even the Bible mentions it. Likely, these stories weren't inspired by imagination. If imagination took over, its likely the stories were inspired by actual events. In the same way, every culture has a flood story. Coincidence? I think not.

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I think that's what we need as a race right now. We need this god to come out and show themselves. It would make life so much easier knowing that we're not alone

What god it may be is a whole different discussion.

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Can't be disproved either. That's why it's called 'faith.'

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Faith is nothing more than believing something because you want to.

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Faith is nothing more than believing something because you want to.

Want to. need to. Choose to.

Faith is a condition all humans can choose, or not chose, to adopt.

We have faith. We invest faith. We act on faith.

I'd put it more positively. Like love, compassion, mercy, altruism and forgiveness; faith is one of the expressions of our nature. It makes us what we are as human beings, and is a reflection of who and what we can be. My parents put their faith in me when I was born and I didn't let them down. I put my faith in my wife when I married her, and she lived up to that faith in every way.

Faith brings positive consequences, of its self, with nothing else required.

Edited by Mr Walker
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I don't see faith as a virtue; I think some who would have us believe things make it into a virtue but I see it as perhaps something of a weakness. Faith is an excuse, as it were, for believing things we would like to believe but can't find other reasons for believing.

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Faith is trusting in God to come through with His promises. That's the Biblical explanation anyway.

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'Verily I say unto you, There be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom.'

So is there a two thousand year old witness to that statement or is it a broken promise?

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