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markdohle

Israel

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Israel

I have a friend, who is probably a genius in more ways that one. He can think rings around me and for that I like him. I enjoy people who are smarter than me. Yet when it comes to politics, I have trouble understanding how his mind seems to stop working. I am not saying this because he belongs to another political party, no; it is the way he reacts on certain issues, instead of responding in a manner that would invite some sort of dialogue. I have come away from some discussions’ disturbed, if truth be told.

We were talking about Israel a while back and again, I never seem to learn, I was surprised and appalled in how he expressed his distained for Israel. He wants us to withdraw all support from Israel and back up the demands of the more radical neighbors who state that they seek only the complete annihilation of the Israeli state. He believes that they are too aggressive (The Jews) and are the only ones at fault in what is happening in that part of the world.

So this time I asked him to think upon this scenario. It went like this. We both live in the state Georgia in the United States. So I said, think of Georgia as being a country, and the surrounding states are sovereign states who may have some issues with one another, even wars, but are united, for the most part in their hatred of our country. That they only want our total destruction, there is no middle ground….at least for some of the more radical countries. How would that affect us as a society? Then think that the majority of the population in Georgia, were Roman Catholic, and has a history of being hated and persecuted for centuries. Not only that but our people were killed by the millions during a world war…..how would that affect our mentality, yours and mine and our society? Then, what if we had nuclear capabilities? Needed for self preservation of our society, as well as having a superior fighting force, more disciplined than our enemies, brought about because we know that no one will come to our recue if we are attacked by our enemies…. again who seek only our destruction? I don’t think that our being defensive in our approach would be paranoia at all. For what if there was one country that said that they would support us, but in reality a certain segment of the population were in fact our enemies? It is not a situation that I would wish on any country. Then add to the fact that we are small in population and our country is little to begin with in land mass.

My friend just looked at me and told me to go to hell and walked out of the room. I don’t understand how an intelligent man, can’t see the situation of Israel, how they are backed into a tiny corner, with no room to turn at all. Perhaps one day they will use a nuclear device as a last ditch effort to survive. I think that is a real possibility. Even if I did not like the state of Israel, I would support them for the sake of peace and to offset a nuclear incident.

I fact I love Israel. The Jewish people have suffered a great deal in the past, and I can understand their defensive attitude, their army and their weapons. In many ways they are alone. As a people, small in number, they have done more for the human race than any others social entity. In science, philosophy, religion and art, they have excelled and made this world a better place I believe. Is the Jewish nation perfect? Of course not….Have they make mistakes? Yes, but can anyone tell me they would do differently if on a daily basis the lives of their wife’s and children are threatened. I know my answer. If I were Jewish I would be over in Israel. Their identity survived for 2,000 years when they were dispersed, even when persecuted and killed by so called Christian peoples, they are a special people and we should be thankful for their existence. If not for religious reasons, then for secular, philosophical and artistic ones, for sure; for truly they are a gift to the human race I believe.

Sorry for the rant. There is an old saying, ‘Hold your friends close, but your enemies closer”. In the case with radicals Muslims, if you hold them close, they will only gut you. Don’t forget, radical Muslims also want our destruction as well. Am I being paranoid, I don’t think so. Also I don’t lump all Muslims into the radical category. I know Muslims that are appalled at what is going on and feel despair over were this will lead for them. I believe the ride is going to get much rougher before it gets better. We are a primitive, tribal, violent species, who have weapons that we may be to young to have. I think as a species we are 13 years old with way too much testosterone for our own good.

Edited by markdohle
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Your friend seems to be just another member of the world majority Mark. The hatred is so inexplicable that I choose to believe it is supernatural in nature. It often is seen worst in those who have never nor will ever be impacted by the actions of Israelis. And the best argument they have to defend it is "fairness". As if that has ever really existed anywhere at a national level.

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Name of israel to be given to a country is really bizzare. I always found it bizzare :) If I were israel living some other place on earth, i would sue them :D

you will understand israel to launch nuclears off because it feels isolated and threatened but you dont understand your friend when he tells you to go to hell?

Edited by thyra
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Name of israel to be given to a country is really bizzare. I always found it bizzare :) If I were israel living some other place on earth, i would sue them :D

you will understand israel to launch nuclears off because it feels isolated and threatened but you dont understand your friend when he tells you to go to hell?

If that is all you got from his statement then maybe you and his friend could have lovely dinner conversations. The issue is MUCH more complicated. He said that

"Perhaps one day they will use a nuclear device as a last ditch effort to survive. I think that is a real possibility."

Big difference between that and just feeling isolated and threatened - wouldn't you agree?

eta -didn't intend to make the last sentence BOLD - this software has a mind of it's own sometimes.

Edited by and then
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Yes, thats all I got from the whole conversation and still it remains so. If I had more things to say, then and now, anything else, I would gladly add. :) oh, I just did. :)

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Then, what if we had nuclear capabilities? Needed for self preservation of our society, as well as having a superior fighting force, more disciplined than our enemies, brought about because we know that no one will come to our recue if we are attacked by our enemies.

You severely underestimate the amount of military support "government aid" Israel recieves. Let's look at who's in their corner:

USA, UK, Germany, Turkey, India, Canada, China and Czech Republic, to name a few.

They are allied with practically every Western superpower. It's not jus the alliances that are important to note here - it's also the money.

President Obama's Fiscal Year 2010 budget proposes $53.8 billion for appropriated international affairs' programs. From that budget, $5.7 billion is appropriated for foreign military financing, military education, and peacekeeping operations. From that $5.7 billion, $2.8 billion, almost 50% is appropriated for Israel.[

Does that raise any red flags? Half of the US budget for international military aid is set aside for a tiny little country in the middle-east!

Our own Prime Minister here in Canda vouched earlier this year we would reaffirm our "undying support for Israel". We already send several hundred million dollars a year. Again, we have a 1st world nation pledging support.

I'm getting tired of Israeli supporters whining about how "alone" Israel is. When Israel is being backed by the Western powers that decimate other middle-eastern countries on a whim, you begin to see the bigger picture. Israel is not alone: far from it. They are in as good a place as they can be compared to their immediate enemies who CAN'T rely on the biggest military force on the planet.

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What's cool is that so many Israeli citizens are in high office in the US government. Senators and Congressmen, Chief of Staff in the White House (once upon a time), half the federal judiciary, half the Pentagon, or at least its comptroller for a period of time, etc etc.

The federal government is virtually controlled by Israeli interests, and that's so cool. :tu:

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What's cool is that so many Israeli citizens are in high office in the US government. Senators and Congressmen, Chief of Staff in the White House (once upon a time), half the federal judiciary, half the Pentagon, or at least its comptroller for a period of time, etc etc.

The federal government is virtually controlled by Israeli interests, and that's so cool. :tu:

Oh right thanks for reminding me. I was going to make a point of that, too. But then again the numbers coming from the US speak for themselves.

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The problem with this issue is you are called a racist if you suggest cutting funding. Even reducing funding. Ask in "Crap we are not doing great over here, Isreal, can you check with someone else for a couple months?" then you are called a bigot.

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Israel

I have a friend, who is probably a genius in more ways that one. He can think rings around me and for that I like him. I enjoy people who are smarter than me. Yet when it comes to politics, I have trouble understanding how his mind seems to stop working. I am not saying this because he belongs to another political party, no; it is the way he reacts on certain issues, instead of responding in a manner that would invite some sort of dialogue. I have come away from some discussions’ disturbed, if truth be told.

We were talking about Israel a while back and again, I never seem to learn, I was surprised and appalled in how he expressed his distained for Israel. He wants us to withdraw all support from Israel and back up the demands of the more radical neighbors who state that they seek only the complete annihilation of the Israeli state. He believes that they are too aggressive (The Jews) and are the only ones at fault in what is happening in that part of the world.

So this time I asked him to think upon this scenario. It went like this. We both live in the state Georgia in the United States. So I said, think of Georgia as being a country, and the surrounding states are sovereign states who may have some issues with one another, even wars, but are united, for the most part in their hatred of our country. That they only want our total destruction, there is no middle ground….at least for some of the more radical countries. How would that affect us as a society? Then think that the majority of the population in Georgia, were Roman Catholic, and has a history of being hated and persecuted for centuries. Not only that but our people were killed by the millions during a world war…..how would that affect our mentality, yours and mine and our society? Then, what if we had nuclear capabilities? Needed for self preservation of our society, as well as having a superior fighting force, more disciplined than our enemies, brought about because we know that no one will come to our recue if we are attacked by our enemies…. again who seek only our destruction? I don’t think that our being defensive in our approach would be paranoia at all. For what if there was one country that said that they would support us, but in reality a certain segment of the population were in fact our enemies? It is not a situation that I would wish on any country. Then add to the fact that we are small in population and our country is little to begin with in land mass.

My friend just looked at me and told me to go to hell and walked out of the room. I don’t understand how an intelligent man, can’t see the situation of Israel, how they are backed into a tiny corner, with no room to turn at all. Perhaps one day they will use a nuclear device as a last ditch effort to survive. I think that is a real possibility. Even if I did not like the state of Israel, I would support them for the sake of peace and to offset a nuclear incident.

I fact I love Israel. The Jewish people have suffered a great deal in the past, and I can understand their defensive attitude, their army and their weapons. In many ways they are alone. As a people, small in number, they have done more for the human race than any others social entity. In science, philosophy, religion and art, they have excelled and made this world a better place I believe. Is the Jewish nation perfect? Of course not….Have they make mistakes? Yes, but can anyone tell me they would do differently if on a daily basis the lives of their wife’s and children are threatened. I know my answer. If I were Jewish I would be over in Israel. Their identity survived for 2,000 years when they were dispersed, even when persecuted and killed by so called Christian peoples, they are a special people and we should be thankful for their existence. If not for religious reasons, then for secular, philosophical and artistic ones, for sure; for truly they are a gift to the human race I believe.

Sorry for the rant. There is an old saying, ‘Hold your friends close, but your enemies closer”. In the case with radicals Muslims, if you hold them close, they will only gut you. Don’t forget, radical Muslims also want our destruction as well. Am I being paranoid, I don’t think so. Also I don’t lump all Muslims into the radical category. I know Muslims that are appalled at what is going on and feel despair over were this will lead for them. I believe the ride is going to get much rougher before it gets better. We are a primitive, tribal, violent species, who have weapons that we may be to young to have. I think as a species we are 13 years old with way too much testosterone for our own good.

Looking at everything Jesus Christ taught us to believe in, Israel doesn't act Christian.

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Looking at everything Jesus Christ taught us to believe in, Israel doesn't act Christian.

What government actually does, not the United States, nor any other state. The fact is, if a world war starts, it will start from there. Israel is surrounded by enemies, we will all be affected if a war starts there. Oil not being the central consideration, though an important one of course. People have no idea how unstable the world is at this time......in the end we never will, we get used to anything, then make it the new normal, until something happens that the new normal gets much, much worse.

Peace

mark

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The problem with this issue is you are called a racist if you suggest cutting funding. Even reducing funding. Ask in "Crap we are not doing great over here, Isreal, can you check with someone else for a couple months?" then you are called a bigot.

It is not just Israel that is upset about this, other Arabs countries are also fearful of where this could lead. Saudi Arabia says that they will now seek nuclear power in order to protect themselves, I am sure other Arab states will do the same. The Sunni and Shia Muslims hate each other as much as they hate the Jews.

Peace

Mark

Edited by markdohle

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What government actually does, not the United States, nor any other state. The fact is, if a world war starts, it will start from there. Israel is surrounded by enemies, we will all be affected if a war starts there. Oil not being the central consideration, though an important one of course. People have no idea how unstable the world is at this time......in the end we never will, we get used to anything, then make it the new normal, until something happens that the new normal gets much, much worse.

Peace

mark

There's hatred amongst our own people we could focus on too but like all hatred, what's the point?

Peace, hope, and love; all three. When we let hatred shape our world view and govt policies, we violate Christ's teachings in the most deliberate fashion.

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There's hatred amongst our own people we could focus on too but like all hatred, what's the point?

Peace, hope, and love; all three. When we let hatred shape our world view and govt policies, we violate Christ's teachings in the most deliberate fashion.

I think we do live in a fallen world, one that is pain and chaos and seems to only be getting worse. As a Christin, all I can do is pray, hope and seek to deepen my faith and hope in Christ Jesus as well as seeking deeper healing so I can love more profoundly.

Peace

mark

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Israel has a right to exist.

It IS surrounded by people who want it destroyed.

Do we as people of good conscience allow millions of innocent people to die because it's too much hard work?

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Israel has a right to exist.

It IS surrounded by people who want it destroyed.

Do we as people of good conscience allow millions of innocent people to die because it's too much hard work?

Radical Muslims also want to destroy us as well.

Peace

mark

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What I think everyone is forgetting, is that if these guys, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Assembly_of_the_United_Nations (these guys to be more precise http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Nations_Special_Committee_on_Palestine) , had plopped a conflicting culture (Jews) in your back yard (Palestine), and then that conflicting culture kept taking more of your backyard each year, you would be upset as well.

None of this is new, the Palestinians didn't like it then, just as they don't like it now. Why does the Western world expect them to change their opinion?

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Radical Muslims also want to destroy us as well.

Peace

mark

Radical anybody wants to destroy 'x'. Radical Christians want to destroy abortion clinics. Radical Christians hung a bunch of women in Salem. Political radicals blow up Oklahoma City buildings. Political radicals shoot Presidents. Isolated radicals shoot up schools.

Are you suggesting all Muslims in Palestine are radicals?

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There's been enough children in Palestine so traumatized that some even lose the ability to speak. They deserve to shine their own lights; they deserve a voice. Until then they deserve to be defended. Palestinians deserve basic human rights, like the right to free trade, so they don't have to use their carnation harvests as animal feed because they're not allowed to export them across their own borders.

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So you think another wrong, the destruction of Israel, will make that wrong better Yam?

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Israel doesn't exist.

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What I think everyone is forgetting, is that if these guys, http://en.wikipedia...._United_Nations (these guys to be more precise http://en.wikipedia....ee_on_Palestine) , had plopped a conflicting culture (Jews) in your back yard (Palestine), and then that conflicting culture kept taking more of your backyard each year, you would be upset as well.

None of this is new, the Palestinians didn't like it then, just as they don't like it now. Why does the Western world expect them to change their opinion?

I certainly understand the feelings of anger and betrayal they must feel at losing their land. They were furious that they were told to live beside people they have an institutional hatred for but it's been 70 years or so and they doggedly hang on to the dream that they can simply remove this people. It's irrational and it WILL lead to a global war in time. If it were any other two groups it could have been settled long since. Doesn't it strike you the least bit strange that the whole planet seems riveted on what is going on there?
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Israel doesn't exist.

Lots of people living in the area seem to disagree.

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I certainly understand the feelings of anger and betrayal they must feel at losing their land. They were furious that they were told to live beside people they have an institutional hatred for but it's been 70 years or so and they doggedly hang on to the dream that they can simply remove this people. It's irrational and it WILL lead to a global war in time. If it were any other two groups it could have been settled long since. Doesn't it strike you the least bit strange that the whole planet seems riveted on what is going on there?

It's one of those "what if ..." moments, how different would the world be if modern Israel was in America (wasn't there a plan for it to be in New Mexico?)

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I certainly understand the feelings of anger and betrayal they must feel at losing their land. They were furious that they were told to live beside people they have an institutional hatred for but it's been 70 years or so and they doggedly hang on to the dream that they can simply remove this people. It's irrational and it WILL lead to a global war in time. If it were any other two groups it could have been settled long since. Doesn't it strike you the least bit strange that the whole planet seems riveted on what is going on there?

Only because of a fictitious book... not everybody believes in that BS

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