Aid For Americans vs Aid for Israelis

[Yamato]

If God is just, andie will be resurrected as a Palestinian. Then he can learn all about how hating oppression feels.

[jeem]

We $upport Palestinians and they murder their own regularly. Should we stop funding them as well? If we supported no country that killed dissidents then we'd not be in the M.E. at all

edit to add: We wouldn't be supporting most countries anywhere in the world - it seems to be a pretty common practice.

You support those who are eager to murder not those who can bring peace

[jeem]

If God is just, andie will be resurrected as a Palestinian. Then he can learn all about how hating oppression feels.

But will he remember his present view about Palestinian.If he does not remember he will never be able to learn

If God is just, andie will be resurrected as a Palestinian. Then he can learn all about how hating oppression feels.

But will he remember his present view about Palestinian.If he does not remember he will never be able to learn

If God is just, andie will be resurrected as a Palestinian. Then he can learn all about how hating oppression feels.

But will he remember his present view about Palestinian.If he does not remember he will never be able to learn

[+and-then]

His stated position of: "Everything is going to hell in a hand basket!" combined with "Steady as she goes!" is so irreconcilable it proves he doesn't really believe what he says much less care about "The Jews". He just uses Jewish people as the scapegoats to dishonestly attack anyone critical of the state of Israel.

If you believed in the word of the God of the bible you would understand that there is not thing ONE you can do to change it in the smallest detail. All you can do as an individual is refrain from hating on a personal level and try to do good to those who hate you. The fact that you grasp at the idea that you can make a lie of scripture shows how clueless - or perhaps willful - you are Yam. Good luck with that.

[Yamato]

If you believed in the word of the God of the bible you would understand that there is not thing ONE you can do to change it in the smallest detail. All you can do as an individual is refrain from hating on a personal level and try to do good to those who hate you. The fact that you grasp at the idea that you can make a lie of scripture shows how clueless - or perhaps willful - you are Yam. Good luck with that.

Actually the Bible says that God scattered the Jews across the continents, and forbids Jews to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah. This isn't about some sect of Judaism, this is Scripture in the Torah. Whether I believe it or not, is irrelevant.

You believe in Armageddon so you say. But if you really did, you would agree with me on Zionist policy. I think you really believe in this real estate development project in the Middle East and all of the problems that surround it.

[thyra]

Actually the Bible says that God scattered the Jews across the continents, and forbids Jews to have their own state until the coming of the Messiah. This isn't about some sect of Judaism, this is Scripture in the Torah. Whether I believe it or not, is irrelevant.

You believe in Armageddon so you say. But if you really did, you would agree with me on Zionist policy. I think you really believe in this real estate development project in the Middle East and all of the problems that surround it.

I understand what Yamato is tryingto say. You are mistaken about the idea of israel. Israel will be collected from ALL nations. Jew is a nationality as well as it is a race since they dont make crossrace marriages in general. you can be an israel too. only god knows who is israel. there is no way of knowing that. it is a great irony to name a country israel and make such plans of bringing doom on the region and clearing it on your favour. it ust doesnt work that way, name of israel is first given by god and only god knows who is israel.Instead of looking at the movie script going on in the region try to better understand what is in the scriptures perhaps.

Edited December 2, 2013 by thyra

[Yamato]

I understand what Yamato is tryingto say. You are mistaken about the idea of israel. Israel will be collected from ALL nations. Jew is a nationality as well as it is a race since they dont make crossrace marriages in general. you can be an israel too. only god knows who is israel. there is no way of knowing that. it is a great irony to name a country israel and make such plans of bringing doom on the region and clearing it on your favour. it ust doesnt work that way, name of israel is first given by god and only god knows who is israel.Instead of looking at the movie script going on in the region try to better understand what is in the scriptures perhaps.

The way the Israeli government handles it, it's a race. But I'm not interested in eugenics experiments by the State either. If anyone is consulting scripture in order to set policy, that might be the crux of the problem.

[thyra]

The way the Israeli government handles it, it's a race. But I'm not interested in eugenics experiments by the State either. If anyone is consulting scripture in order to set policy, that might be the crux of the problem.

because and then is getting his sensitivity on the issue from the scriptures and seeing the region through those scriptures the way he understands them, i needed to make that post above. I also think same way misreading of scriptures or deliberate imposing of them on the region through the name israel is causing a movie scripture played on over there which is in vain in and of itself for any purpose whatsoever.

[Yamato]

because and then is getting his sensitivity on the issue from the scriptures and seeing the region through those scriptures the way he understands them, i needed to make that post above. I also think same way misreading of scriptures or deliberate imposing of them on the region through the name israel is causing a movie scripture played on over there which is in vain in and of itself for any purpose whatsoever.

He has claimed he believes it's God's will be done. If that's the case then why is he so defensive about the policy? Nothing mankind can do will change the prophecy anyway. So that's the first inconsistency with his position. The 2nd inconsistency is just a matter of pragmatism. If you really believe a place is going to become a future war zone, why in the world would you support policies of mass migration to that war zone? I'm sorry but he should be more anti-Zionist than I am if I take his biblical beliefs into account. He loves to morph Israel into Jews but Jews are much greater than Israel could ever be. Jews living in the US today are going to be just fine in the US tomorrow. They don't need to move to Israel to die needlessly in some horrible cataclysm to satisfy some ancient covenant. They're free to worship and reproduce in the US and around the world as they see fit.

But doing our job in the world, providing a bureaucratic and military smokescreen for Israel while it quietly goes about its business of annexing 10% of the West Bank goes ever on. Obama didn't visit the Holy Land this year with any Peace Process initiatives. They didn't even address that. Iran is somehow way too important to talk about Palestinians. Israel thought it was a good idea for Palestinians not to have pasta before John Kerry made a personal appeal for noodles not to be banned. I wish I was making this stuff up. It's insane what people are supporting.

[Frank Merton]

Frankly I find myself feeling strange saying this (its contrary to my normal anti-ideological bent) but I tend to think the West owes the Jews something, and if it has to be a homeland in Palestine, mythically based or not, then that is what it has to be. The Palestinians could be accommodated fine if they would let themselves be accommodated.

[thyra]

He has claimed he believes it's God's will be done. If that's the case then why is he so defensive about the policy?

Perhaps he wants the pleasure of being part of this triumphed but not by being directly involved in it. it is easy to believe that the prophecy should be fulfilled in a far corner of physical earth, I guess.

[Frank Merton]

Oh dear, I see I just committed the unpardonable sin in English grammar: I said "its" where I should have said "it's."

[Yamato]

Perhaps he wants the pleasure of being part of this triumphed but not by being directly involved in it. it is easy to believe that the prophecy should be fulfilled in a far corner of physical earth, I guess.

Okay, I'm just going to defer the psychological stuff to you from now on.

[+and-then]

Well I'm glad you and thyra have me all analyzed. Yam I support what I believe to be the message of the bible. Could I be wrong? ABSOLUTELY. But you, also, might be - ever consider that? And I'm not talking of the morality of your stance. Toward the suffering of the Palestinians which I do not deny, you are quite right. But you give no such mercy to the Jews who feel they also have a right to a home where they will not have to worry every moment of their lives if they will be over run tomorrow or next month. You ignore the fact that the Palestinians have never wavered in their commitment to removing the Jews from their midst. This is not propaganda it is fact. They have never made a good faith effort to coexist with the Jews of Israel. I have never heard you admit that they have or that they have sought a peace that included recognizing Israel's right to exist AS A JEWISH STATE. Do you believe that the Jews of Israel have a right to exist as a state of Jewish character in Palestine?

[Yamato]

Well I'm glad you and thyra have me all analyzed. Yam I support what I believe to be the message of the bible. Could I be wrong? ABSOLUTELY. But you, also, might be - ever consider that? And I'm not talking of the morality of your stance. Toward the suffering of the Palestinians which I do not deny, you are quite right. But you give no such mercy to the Jews who feel they also have a right to a home where they will not have to worry every moment of their lives if they will be over run tomorrow or next month. You ignore the fact that the Palestinians have never wavered in their commitment to removing the Jews from their midst. This is not propaganda it is fact. They have never made a good faith effort to coexist with the Jews of Israel. I have never heard you admit that they have or that they have sought a peace that included recognizing Israel's right to exist AS A JEWISH STATE. Do you believe that the Jews of Israel have a right to exist as a state of Jewish character in Palestine?

I was considering that you were right, not that you were wrong. It's not about belief in the Bible or not. It's about taking you at your word as to what you believe, and not being able to reconcile them with the facts/policies.

I give no mercy to "the Jews"? They're my next door neighbors I assure you they get as much mercy per day as I do. Excuse me for neglecting your foreign welfare project but you should fund the project from the private sector.

[supervike]

Frankly I find myself feeling strange saying this (its contrary to my normal anti-ideological bent) but I tend to think the West owes the Jews something, and if it has to be a homeland in Palestine, mythically based or not, then that is what it has to be. The Palestinians could be accommodated fine if they would let themselves be accommodated.

Why does the West owe Jews something? I'm missing that part.

[thyra]

Why does the West owe Jews something? I'm missing that part.

Because jews are scared. Also some people interpret the happiness on earth is depending on a zionist understanding. We dont understand what the verses of sacred texts mean but we know which country to help financially looking at their earthly given names. it is really funny. But perhaps there is surplus of money somewhere and some people high on some levels politically and religiously loving to make fun of people that way.

[+and-then]

Because jews are scared. Also some people interpret the happiness on earth is depending on a zionist understanding. We dont understand what the verses of sacred texts mean but we know which country to help financially looking at their earthly given names. it is really funny. But perhaps there is surplus of money somewhere and some people high on some levels politically and religiously loving to make fun of people that way.

That's so &&%$%$ sweet Tell you what darlin' - follow Yam's prescription and pull all the cash from everyone the US supports and let them all fend for themselves. We'll save a fraction of a fraction of a penny on the dollars we're borrowing. Meantime we lose all influence in what they choose to do to each other and when all hell breaks loose guess who pretty much HAS to step in and stop the food fight? And in the case of Zion that fight might someday involve them saying to hell with all of you and lighting the prettiest candle you ever saw. But hey - it's only Zionists , until it's NOT

[thyra]

That's so &&%$%$ sweet Tell you what darlin' - follow Yam's prescription and pull all the cash from everyone the US supports and let them all fend for themselves. We'll save a fraction of a fraction of a penny on the dollars we're borrowing. Meantime we lose all influence in what they choose to do to each other and when all hell breaks loose guess who pretty much HAS to step in and stop the food fight? And in the case of Zion that fight might someday involve them saying to hell with all of you and lighting the prettiest candle you ever saw. But hey - it's only Zionists , until it's NOT

On a second thought if it is the case, I respect your idea to help people who are scared. There are many people afraid in this world living in poverty and lacking safety in many measures, but you choose jews, and thats okay, too. Some of portion among whole those scared people. better than nothing. I'd better stay out of this discussion for a while after this realization.

[buckskin scout]

I of course do not answer for Frank but I hope my input is not intrusion.

1. Israel is a proven ally in a very dangerous part of the world - critical to the policies of the US.

2. The primary aid we give them is military and as such it mostly goes to US contractors so the $ and jobs actually stay here.

3. Those other countries DO receive aid in proportion to their value to America. It sounds cold because it IS cold. This is the way governments operate.

And what about Israel's massive weapons sales, military and police training and other forms of collaboration with such terroristic regimes as in Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua under Somoza, Iran under the Shah, Malawi under Dr. Benda, a close friend of the apartheid regime in South Africa. Perhaps the prominent examples have to do with Israel's extensive military and economic alliance with apartheid South Africa and support for the Shah, especially among the Labor party doves, like Yigal Allon, who, made frequent visits to his friend, the head of Savak, the Shah's sadistic secret police. Another interesting example has to do with the 1976-83 "dirty war" regime in Argentina which butchered hundreds of Jews and engaged in such practices as forcing Jewish prisoners to kneel in front of pictures of Hitler, yet Israel was its primary supplier of military hardware and Israeli generals, like Motta Gur, often made friendly visits to the country.

[+and-then]

And what about Israel's massive weapons sales, military and police training and other forms of collaboration with such terroristic regimes as in Guatemala, El Salvador, Nicaragua under Somoza, Iran under the Shah, Malawi under Dr. Benda, a close friend of the apartheid regime in South Africa. Perhaps the prominent examples have to do with Israel's extensive military and economic alliance with apartheid South Africa and support for the Shah, especially among the Labor party doves, like Yigal Allon, who, made frequent visits to his friend, the head of Savak, the Shah's sadistic secret police. Another interesting example has to do with the 1976-83 "dirty war" regime in Argentina which butchered hundreds of Jews and engaged in such practices as forcing Jewish prisoners to kneel in front of pictures of Hitler, yet Israel was its primary supplier of military hardware and Israeli generals, like Motta Gur, often made friendly visits to the country.

You mean Israel act's like most other governments? It is corrupt at times and..*gasp* like everyone ELSE?

The question was about why we'd support Israel not whether others think they are deserving of aid. Try to pay attention.

[buckskin scout]

You mean Israel act's like most other governments? It is corrupt at times and..*gasp* like everyone ELSE?

The question was about why we'd support Israel not whether others think they are deserving of aid. Try to pay attention.

Hey, these are countries the US refuses to supply arms to for their genocides and human rights violations (D'oh!) ... but Israel is all over them like flies on you know what. Israel is one of the top arms suppliers to third world despots around the world and have you heard?

It is you that better pay attention and get off your adulations for that Kingdom of "Priests" and "Holy" Nation (that is Exodus 19:6).

[Yamato]

That's so &&%$%$ sweet Tell you what darlin' - follow Yam's prescription and pull all the cash from everyone the US supports and let them all fend for themselves. We'll save a fraction of a fraction of a penny on the dollars we're borrowing. Meantime we lose all influence in what they choose to do to each other and when all hell breaks loose guess who pretty much HAS to step in and stop the food fight? And in the case of Zion that fight might someday involve them saying to hell with all of you and lighting the prettiest candle you ever saw. But hey - it's only Zionists , until it's NOT

I never said pull all the cash, I never said let whoever you care about fend for themselves.

I said, stop relying on Washington DC to do it for you. A statist is someone who actually thinks that the sky is going to fall without Washington DC there to save them. As if nothing in the world is going to get done unless Washington DC does it. This topic is no exception. This is worse than ninjadude's Obamacare. It's worse than Br Cornelius's Capitalism. It's the most accurate proof of how statist we really are and it puts the lie to the test for conservatives especially. I mean it's like I'm talking a foreign language to some of you people when I simply suggest spending your own money on your own interests and stop bilking other people to get your programs funded. God knows I've got special interests too; I don't have a federal entitlement complex to go around and talk down to anonymous people on the internet making an endless stream of statist excuses for why you should pay for them.

[+and-then]

I never said pull all the cash, I never said let whoever you care about fend for themselves.

I said, stop relying on Washington DC to do it for you. A statist is someone who actually thinks that the sky is going to fall without Washington DC there to save them. As if nothing in the world is going to get done unless Washington DC does it. This topic is no exception. This is worse than ninjadude's Obamacare. It's worse than Br Cornelius's Capitalism. It's the most accurate proof of how statist we really are and it puts the lie to the test for conservatives especially. I mean it's like I'm talking a foreign language to some of you people when I simply suggest spending your own money on your own interests and stop bilking other people to get your programs funded. God knows I've got special interests too; I don't have a federal entitlement complex to go around and talk down to anonymous people on the internet making an endless stream of statist excuses for why you should pay for them.

Are you an attorney Yam? You parse VERY well. Man you are CONSTANTLY complaining about money and who it gets spent on. I was merely making the point that what little influence the US has for good or ill any longer is bought with the cash we spread around - and YES, I know we don't really have the cash and it shouldn't be happening. That aspect of it is just surreal to me - never have understood how it works to spend money that doesn't exist.

[Yamato]

You mean Israel act's like most other governments? It is corrupt at times and..*gasp* like everyone ELSE?

The question was about why we'd support Israel not whether others think they are deserving of aid. Try to pay attention.

If Israel's govt acts like most other govts, then that again confers with what I've been saying to you from day one: Drop the government. How addled are you? Stop giving yourself something to complain about. The problems are never solved by the government. People are who solve problems, the government gets some greasy salesman up on a podium to smile at you and take all the credit. Woodrow Wilson didn't give women the right to vote. Every great example of social change in our history was made by people, not by Washington DC. People who look to federal force to solve problems belong in the same bag together. Out with the rest of the trash on Tuesday.