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wuhugm

Faster Than Light and Time Travel

113 posts in this topic

Is this the right sub-forum for this?

I'm curios how did they come up with a theory saying that by FTL making time travel possible?

I think it was merely misperception, the reason be :

For the sake of this discussion, let's set some condition :

1. You have the Power of Teleportation, literally making travel time close to 0, which means traveling great astronomical distances is FTL

2. You have super telescope that can see details of planets dozens of lightyear away

3. You have space suit

Earth time 2010 AD, you saw a planet 10 light years away with your super telescope, let's call it Gaia and for the sake of it let's have Gaia also in 2010 it's time.

Then you saw a landmark (building, natural structure, whatever) in Gaia about to be destroyed (By aliens, super sandstorm, whatever) in approximately 6 hours. You then immediately done your spacesuit and then teleporting to Gaia to stop it.

You arrived and what did you find...

The landmark is long gone, destroyed years ago, exactly 10 years ago.

What happened here is simply delayed information, light particles from Gaia took 10 years to reach earth thus means the information we received through sight was that of Gaia in year 2000. In reality in that time frame both planets is in 2010 but we can't observe Gaia in real time.

You teleported back to earth and noticed that only few minutes passed, you are still in 2010 AD.

Is there any time travel involved here? None. Not backward not forward.

So how did they did they come up with a theory saying that by FTL making time travel possible?

please enlighten me~

Edited by wuhugm

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Is this the right sub-forum for this?

I'm curios how did they come up with a theory saying that by FTL making time travel possible?

I think it was merely misperception, the reason be :

For the sake of this discussion, let's set some condition :

1. You have the Power of Teleportation, literally making travel time close to 0, which means traveling great astronomical distances is FTL

2. You have super telescope that can see details of planets dozens of lightyear away

3. You have space suit

Earth time 2010 AD, you saw a planet 10 light years away with your super telescope, let's call it Gaia and for the sake of it let's have Gaia also in 2010 it's time.

Then you saw a landmark (building, natural structure, whatever) in Gaia about to be destroyed (By aliens, super sandstorm, whatever) in approximately 6 hours. You then immediately done your spacesuit and then teleporting to Gaia to stop it.

You arrived and what did you find...

The landmark is long gone, destroyed years ago, exactly 10 years ago.

What happened here is simply delayed information, light particles from Gaia took 10 years to reach earth thus means the information we received through sight was that of Gaia in year 2000. In reality in that time frame both planets is in 2010 but we can't observe Gaia in real time.

You teleported back to earth and noticed that only few minutes passed, you are still in 2010 AD.

Is there any time travel involved here? None. Not backward not forward.

So how did they did they come up with a theory saying that by FTL making time travel possible?

please enlighten me~

Well FTL travel by spaceship as opposed to teleporting may in theory cause your own personal time to reverse making you grow younger according to special relativity.but time in the rest of the universe would go on as normal. (I think). Of course traveling by spaceship FTL is thought to be impossible so that idea will probably never be tested. I think a wormhole going to a part of space time in your past might be the only possibility but I'm not even sure that would work. Instant teleportation is supposed to be impossible also

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Well FTL travel by spaceship as opposed to teleporting may in theory cause your own personal time to reverse making you grow younger according to special relativity.but time in the rest of the universe would go on as normal. (I think). Of course traveling by spaceship FTL is thought to be impossible so that idea will probably never be tested. I think a wormhole going to a part of space time in your past might be the only possibility but I'm not even sure that would work. Instant teleportation is supposed to be impossible also

That for now is only thought experiment right

And reversing or stopping biological clock is more physiological rather than time travel, more like stasis in Sci-fi

I also heard if hypothetically you leave earth with FTL ship on 2c (twice light speed) and the return on 4c, you can see yourself in the departing trip (given it's possible to observe surrounding in FTL travel)

This is also wrong I guess

That's not yourself you see, it's just illusion, simply information suspended in light particles, the original you is already making return trip, but the after image still following behind with the speed of c

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That for now is only thought experiment right

And reversing or stopping biological clock is more physiological rather than time travel, more like stasis in Sci-fi

I also heard if hypothetically you leave earth with FTL ship on 2c (twice light speed) and the return on 4c, you can see yourself in the departing trip (given it's possible to observe surrounding in FTL travel)

This is also wrong I guess

That's not yourself you see, it's just illusion, simply information suspended in light particles, the original you is already making return trip, but the after image still following behind with the speed of c

I don't think it would work like that. If you left at 2c and traveled a light year and came back at 4c, assuming you didn't have to spend any time speeding up and then slowing down to turn around and speeding back up 9 months would have still passed by on earth but you would be younger than when you left. But it's impossible to even get to c let alone go faster than that. At c going both ways 2 years would pass on earth but it would seem instantaneous to you and you wouldn't age at all. I think you might be right about seeing your image following you at c but I'm not sure about that one Edited by spacecowboy342

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I don't think it would work like that. If you left at 2c and traveled a light year and came back at 4c, assuming you didn't have to spend any time speeding up and then slowing down to turn around and speeding back up 9 months would have still passed by on earth but you would be younger than when you left. But it's impossible to even get to c let alone go faster than that. At c going both ways 2 years would pass on earth but it would seem instantaneous to you and you wouldn't age at all. I think you might be right about seeing your image following you at c but I'm not sure about that one

In that situation how much time actually spent with us inside the FTL ship? Why would the time of traveling and time passing on earth are not the same? Assuming we can measure time correctly, shouldn't it be the same?

I mean if that's the case, then FTL galactic trade is hardly profitable at all, since the time outside is different than us traveling in FTL, by the time we reach our destination, years would've passed already and prices radically change.

Then what's the point in developing FTL at all if not for arriving faster?

If you say it seems instantaneous then it means it actually is. Disregarding the time required to power up and power down ship, if it seems instantaneous for us to make roundtrip of 1 lightyear then time passed on earth is that instantaneous moment only, right, just like the experiment with teleportation earlier.

Edited by wuhugm

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My understanding is that it doesn't make time travel possible but messes up causality. FTL means you can send a signal but get a response before you send it.

The tachyon pistol thought experiment illustrates this paradox

"Man A and Man B meet at a point in space, and agree to turn around, move away from each other, count down 8 seconds, then turn and fire their weapons at each other. We will follow from man A's perspective.

Both parties exit and travel away from each other at 0.866 C. Man A counts down to 0, turns and then fires. Due to time dilation, when Man A counts to zero, Man B has only counted down to 4, thus his shot flies past Man B at 4 seconds.

Enraged that Man A has fired before he has hit 0, he fires at 4 seconds, and due to time dilation, man A has only counted down to 6! It strikes man A and kills him dead after he has counted down only 2 seconds, a full 6 seconds before he fired his initial shot. A classic grandfather paradox. It gets made worse by the fact that if you started from man B's perspective instead of man A, the exact inverse happens, with man B dead 6 seconds before he fires his shot instead."

http://www.thebestforumever.com/community/threads/tachyon-pistol-duel-thought-experiment.47326/

Edited by Rlyeh

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My understanding is that it doesn't make time travel possible but messes up causality. FTL means you can send a signal but get a response before you send it.

The tachyon pistol thought experiment illustrates this paradox

"Man A and Man B meet at a point in space, and agree to turn around, move away from each other, count down 8 seconds, then turn and fire their weapons at each other. We will follow from man A's perspective.

Both parties exit and travel away from each other at 0.866 C. Man A counts down to 0, turns and then fires. Due to time dilation, when Man A counts to zero, Man B has only counted down to 4, thus his shot flies past Man B at 4 seconds.

Enraged that Man A has fired before he has hit 0, he fires at 4 seconds, and due to time dilation, man A has only counted down to 6! It strikes man A and kills him dead after he has counted down only 2 seconds, a full 6 seconds before he fired his initial shot. A classic grandfather paradox. It gets made worse by the fact that if you started from man B's perspective instead of man A, the exact inverse happens, with man B dead 6 seconds before he fires his shot instead."

http://www.thebestfo...periment.47326/

This is on the premise that tachyon projectile travels instantly while information transfer between human is based on lightspeed, right?

i think something is very wrong in that example

if the tachyon projectile has missed B, then the situation by that moment is :

1. A has fired his gun (according to him 8 counts has passed)

2. B only on 4 counts

Then B fires his gun because of that, the situation by that moment is :

1. B firing in his 5th count

2. A got hit and killed but in his 9th count

Since human perception got screwed because of time dilation, the only point of reference is the Tachyon, which was fired on 8th and 9th count also on 4th and 5th count for A and B respectively

No causality is violated

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Then B fires his gun because of that, the situation by that moment is :

1. B firing in his 5th count

2. A got hit and killed but in his 9th count

Since human perception got screwed because of time dilation, the only point of reference is the Tachyon, which was fired on 8th and 9th count also on 4th and 5th count for A and B respectively

No causality is violated

In this case it's not human perception, time dilation applies to the reference frame and all reference frames are equally valid or real. A counts down to 0 and shoots, in B's reference frame A fires sooner, B shoots back and hits A, in A's reference frame he is hit and killed before firing the first shot.

If the Tachyon is the only proper frame of reference, how do you translate it to A and B's reference?

Edited by Rlyeh

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In this case it's not human perception, time dilation applies to the reference frame and all reference frames are equally valid or real. A counts down to 0 and shoots, in B's reference frame A fires sooner, B shoots back and hits A, in A's reference frame he is hit and killed before firing the first shot.

If the Tachyon is the only proper frame of reference, how do you translate it to A and B's reference?

Frame of references can exist because there are observers that served as the core of said frames

Moving close to the speed of light makes the object shift into different frame of reference than normal universe (was what Einstein said) and thus object can only interact with other objects in the same reference frame

In this case 2 objects generating 2 reference frames and tachyons supposedly crossing over different frame of references since it's a FTL particle

Of course this is hypothetical since we can't yet prove that they indeed in different "time"

So in this situation there are 3 frames of reference, normal space and 2 warp frequencies, that tachyons travel through. Let's disregard how they can hit impossible targets like in this situation.

Tachyon to me is in it's own frame of reference which encompasses 3 other frames, observable in all frames simultaneously. Means Tachyon override the validity of other frames, regardless anything that happens in other frames.

Any frame of reference might be real and valid, but when tachyon is generated, it has priority over all others.

The creation of paradox in this situation is impossible since it included the negation of the first tachyon fired by A. The first tachyon fired is the universal truth and rules causality not the other way around.

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So in this situation there are 3 frames of reference, normal space and 2 warp frequencies, that tachyons travel through. Let's disregard how they can hit impossible targets like in this situation.

What's normal space?
Tachyon to me is in it's own frame of reference which encompasses 3 other frames, observable in all frames simultaneously. Means Tachyon override the validity of other frames, regardless anything that happens in other frames.

Any frame of reference might be real and valid, but when tachyon is generated, it has priority over all others.

The creation of paradox in this situation is impossible since it included the negation of the first tachyon fired by A. The first tachyon fired is the universal truth and rules causality not the other way around.

Why does it have priority? The problem is there is no universal "truth" or reference in relativity, simultaneity is relative. http://www.phys.unsw.edu.au/einsteinlight/jw/module4_time_dilation.htm#simultaneity

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Why does it have priority? The problem is there is no universal "truth" or reference in relativity, simultaneity is relative. http://www.phys.unsw...tm#simultaneity

isn't that in reference to light particles? that still applies to FTL particles?

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isn't that in reference to light particles? that still applies to FTL particles?

I understand that it would also apply to reference frames in motion because of time dilation.

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btw

wouldn't these theories invalidate the existence of God even further? as in Biblical God

I mean acknowledging these means accepting the existence of parallel universes

I'm still having a hard time to accept the possibilities of multiple Frames of Reference at ANY POINT OF TIME

The bible strictly stated that Time is constant forever, and Koran even stated that God always vowed in the name of Time.

I'm trying to incorporate science with religion, but these theories clearly reject that notion

OOT I know, but it has strayed since earlier posts, so what the heck

I would've thought Tachyon has the capability of being a fixed Reference Frame since it's possibly not being affected by time dilation

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btw

wouldn't these theories invalidate the existence of God even further? as in Biblical God

I mean acknowledging these means accepting the existence of parallel universes

I'm still having a hard time to accept the possibilities of multiple Frames of Reference at ANY POINT OF TIME

The bible strictly stated that Time is constant forever, and Koran even stated that God always vowed in the name of Time.

I'm trying to incorporate science with religion, but these theories clearly reject that notion

OOT I know, but it has strayed since earlier posts, so what the heck

I gave up on the Bible when genesis started off with a make believe story.
I would've thought Tachyon has the capability of being a fixed Reference Frame since it's possibly not being affected by time dilation

I was talking about A and B's reference frames. If you could somehow transfer information FTL between them, who's reference do we use?

The tachyon pistol duel was just an example that demonstrates FTL interaction between different frames of reference screws up causality.

Edited by Rlyeh

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"Violating" causality is something I've gotten to use to, although its weird at times. What we can't violate is geometry.

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"Violating" causality is something I've gotten to use to, although its weird at times. What we can't violate is geometry.

Have you actually violated causality though?

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Have you actually violated causality though?

Probably, but when you do it is no longer a violation but the new causality, so it's hard to know.
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Someone got intimate with causality~

Is an idea of Reference Frame which encompasses multiple reference frames so far fetched?

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Probably, but when you do it is no longer a violation but the new causality, so it's hard to know.

When I read "violate causality" I'm thinking an action that prevents it's cause. Like the tachyon pistol duel I posted last page.

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When I read "violate causality" I'm thinking an action that prevents it's cause. Like the tachyon pistol duel I posted last page.

So then it didn't happen and didn't prevent its cause so it did happen. What's so strange about that?

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In that situation how much time actually spent with us inside the FTL ship? Why would the time of traveling and time passing on earth are not the same? Assuming we can measure time correctly, shouldn't it be the same?

I mean if that's the case, then FTL galactic trade is hardly profitable at all, since the time outside is different than us traveling in FTL, by the time we reach our destination, years would've passed already and prices radically change.

Then what's the point in developing FTL at all if not for arriving faster?

If you say it seems instantaneous then it means it actually is. Disregarding the time required to power up and power down ship, if it seems instantaneous for us to make roundtrip of 1 lightyear then time passed on earth is that instantaneous moment only, right, just like the experiment with teleportation earlier.

No time flow is relative to the reference frame of each observer. There isn't just one time flow it flows differently for everyone depending on how fast they are going. See "Einstein's Special Theory of Relativity"

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So then it didn't happen and didn't prevent its cause so it did happen. What's so strange about that?

And you've done that?
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And you've done that?

As I said it's hard to be sure; the reflections become too difficult to see clearly rather quickly.

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My understanding is that it doesn't make time travel possible but messes up causality. FTL means you can send a signal but get a response before you send it.

The tachyon pistol thought experiment illustrates this paradox

"Man A and Man B meet at a point in space, and agree to turn around, move away from each other, count down 8 seconds, then turn and fire their weapons at each other. We will follow from man A's perspective.

Both parties exit and travel away from each other at 0.866 C. Man A counts down to 0, turns and then fires. Due to time dilation, when Man A counts to zero, Man B has only counted down to 4, thus his shot flies past Man B at 4 seconds.

Enraged that Man A has fired before he has hit 0, he fires at 4 seconds, and due to time dilation, man A has only counted down to 6! It strikes man A and kills him dead after he has counted down only 2 seconds, a full 6 seconds before he fired his initial shot. A classic grandfather paradox. It gets made worse by the fact that if you started from man B's perspective instead of man A, the exact inverse happens, with man B dead 6 seconds before he fires his shot instead."

http://www.thebestfo...periment.47326/

I don't think it's going to work like that. If both are travelling away from each other at the same velocity then the other's clock compared to their own would appear slowed by the same amount and both would fire at the same time though both would think the other fired early Edited by spacecowboy342

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Now this tachyon dueling reminds me of double slit experiment or even schrodinger's cat

both creates the possibility of a paradox

but to the immediate observers and to us, the rest of humanity, these events have no impact whatsoever

either the cat dies or not, or what happened in quantum level, the world is not affected at all

to us everything is simply a single event

so in the case of tachyon dueling as well, theoritically there's a higher frame of reference where this event holds no significant whatsoever

and the possibility of Time Dilation being an elaborate hoax

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