"Putsch" in Ukraine

[Kaa-Tzik]

So, we have outside politicians from EU states rabble rousing inside Ukraine, even calling for the elected government to be removed. Again in these large "demonstrations" we see the usual far right pathological Russian haters, the type who beat up ethnic Russian war veterans they are so "brave" and depraved. That these politicians, notably from Lithuania and Poland, who used to be the overlords of Western Ukraine for centuries, call for change of government is actually illegal, and they should be arrested and tried for very serious crimes, yes, that's you, ex prime minister Kaczynski... It seems that yet again we have EU and US involvement in trying to destabalise Ukraine, and not for the "benefit" of Ukranians, but for the financial and political benefit of these organisations. US would love to have troops in the Donbass and Crimea, and thus bring WWIII closer. Politicians in Sevastopol have called for Russian troops to be sent in even now. This will not happen, but it shows how this situation develops.

The blaim for this situation lies with Khrushchev, who when he was in power re-drew the internal Soviet Union borders and transfered Crimea and Donbass from Russian SSR to Ukranian SSR. I make this important point for those who may be mislead by propoganda that says these areas are some Ukranian homeland since creation, and some do say this.. These areas are Russian, Crimea was conquered and settled by the Russian Empire, not some non existent Ukranian state. In 1991 the drunken idiot Yeltsin made a pact with the then head of Ukranian SSR, Leonid Kravchuk, to keep the unrealistic borders created by Khrushchev, an ethnic Ukranian..... This ridiculous situation has been seized upon by the EU, US and fascists in Ukraine to cause trouble between Russia and Ukraine, and to take Ukraine into EU and then NATO. Nothing good will come of this. This situation receives hardly any attention in the West, and even then it is very heavily biased against Russia, ethnic Russians in Ukraine, and the reality of history. If the idiot Yeltsin had not given away Russian areas of Ukranian SSR, then this situation would not be happening. There would be disquiet about direction a, so far, fictional state of Western Ukraine, with capital in Lvov perhaps, is taking, but the situation would not be so dangerous as it is now. Believe me, this situation is potentially very dangerous and perhaps the only way to resolve this is to have a plebicite in Donbass and Crimea to ask if population wants to be Russian or Ukranian. They have never been given any choice before, they shoud be given one now, and EU and US should keep their noses out.

Edited December 3, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Mr.United_Nations]

Source? not sure what this is about as the Ukraine protests are about Ukraine and not Russia

[Kaa-Tzik]

This is all over the media of these countries, so no single source. This is not just about EU, it goes much deeper, as I have explained, to a small extent.

[blueblood]

i visted your page to find out what I'm dealing with here.

I hear about these protests and cannot understand that a population

can be so sophisticated to protest against such a thing.

The Dutch foreighn secretary visted such a demonstration and I

concluded the EU is funding and organizing this thing.

I hope my visit will not give offence...

[WoIverine]

They want to join the EU, be careful what you wish for Ukrainians.

[Still Waters]

I was going to start a new topic with this but I think it fits in ok here.

Thousands of people have gathered in the Ukrainian capital, Kiev, intensifying pressure on the government after it refused to sign a deal on closer ties with the European Union.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25290959

[Frank Merton]

It seems pretty plain that Ukrainians and Russians, in spite of Slavic ties, don't much get along. I think it's because Russians tend to look down on and try to dominate Ukrainians, and want them in a submissive state. The alternative for Ukraine is Europe. Now ask yourself if you had to choose between being in Europe or being in Russia, which would you choose?

Edited December 8, 2013 by Frank Merton

[Kaa-Tzik]

It seems pretty plain that Ukrainians and Russians, in spite of Slavic ties, don't much get along. I think it's because Russians tend to look down on and try to dominate Ukrainians, and want them in a submissive state. The alternative for Ukraine is Europe. Now ask yourself if you had to choose between being in Europe or being in Russia, which would you choose?

It seems pretty plain that you don't know the history......

Let's be clear, Russians do not "look down" on, or try to "dominate" Ukranians. To suggest these shows a total lack of understanding. Many Russians have relatives in Ukraine, and vise versa, many have a Russian and Ukranian parent. The Kuban, the Krasnodar region, has a very large population of Kuban Cossacks whose origins lie in Ukraine, and even speak Russian with a Ukranian dialect, they are the descendents of the famous Ukranian Zaporozhian Cossacks, yet they have no problem with being Russian, or even Russian and Ukranian. The right (East) bank of the Dnieper, including Kiev, are part of old Kievan Rus, the Donbass area in the East of Ukraine is populated by native Russian speakers. Crimea, as I said in my initial post, has never belonged to an independant state of Ukraine until fall of Soviet Union, the population is Russian by ethnicity. So, when I see this nonsense about Russians looking down on Ukranians, what exactly is the basis for such a false statement?

Now, I do not gloss over real issues. Western Ukraine, the left (West) bank of the Dnieper is home to a mix of people. The majority are what used to be called, by some, Ruthenians. And some will see themselves as the "real" Ukranians. It is true that they have been in the middle of, and dominated by larger powers over the centuries, The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth, Russia, Ottomans. They have been denied their own country for centuries and they most certainly deserve one, and I will not say one word against that. The issues stem, primarily, from the huge disaster by the Soviet Union to properly organise farming, thus causing hardship and death for Russians and Ukranians. The Ukranians suffered far worse, and about six million died in what they call the Holodomor, the killing by starvation. This is a highly emotive issue and is used by some, very loud and Russophobic, Ukranians to unjustly beat Russia with, while ignoring the multi-ethnic origin of the the communist party leadership, many, including Stalin, not being ethnic Russian at all, and the fact that ordinary Russians also suffered. This is a hugely toxic subject and may bring down a heap of insults on me, but I am trying to be balanced, unlike many.....

As I already mentioned, if Khrushchev had not altered the internal USSR borders, and he of course would have no conception at that time that USSR would ever fall and his decision cause problems, and if Yeltsin not allowed that decision to stand and let the borders of independant state of Ukraine include parts of what was Russia, then this thread would not exist, demonstrations would probably not be taking place in Kiev. If Ukranians want their own country, fine, if they want into EU, well, sad to see them slip away, but it's their decision. But for all this EU, and in the future it will be NATO, nonsense happening in what is essentially a divided country, should be addressed as a matter of extreme importance. Too many are mislead by coniving and lying EU politicians and the media in their countries. They have been led to think that Ukraine is some homogenous country of "freedom loving" EU and NATO aspirants and that they all hate Russia and that Russia hates them and wants to supress them. BS, total BS.

I have covered this in a quick superficial way as the subject is enormous, and the passions too deep to properly cover in anything less than a book, or two, or three... Some will say I have lied, others will see I speak the truth. I try to be truthfull and see both sides. Those from EU and USA should do the same before making unfounded comments.

Edited December 8, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Frank Merton]

I recognize propaganda the minute they tell me I don't know the history. You started this that way and I overlooked it, but really get some honesty. Most Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia.

You say if they go into the EU, "sad to see them slip away." That give you away, you know.

[Kaa-Tzik]

I recognize propaganda the minute they tell me I don't know the history. You started this that way and I overlooked it, but really get some honesty. Most Ukrainians want nothing to do with Russia.

You say if they go into the EU, "sad to see them slip away." That give you away, you know.

You clearly do not know history and bluster to make it seem you do. Your post, as I expected, is the usual mean spirited carping that you are renowned for. If you have no constructive comments from real knowledge to make, then I suggest you shut up and stop parading your ignorance and obvious bias, if not actual hatred.

[Kaa-Tzik]

Well, continuing on topic. An opinion poll shown on TV news, so sorry, I can't give link, shows just now divided Ukraine is over EU. In Western Ukraine 79% were in favor of EU, while in the East it is only 26%. That there are voices saying that there will not be a civil war in Ukraine is actually worrying, and seems to be a nervous reaction to events in order to comfort these "voices", rather than a confident statement of fact. Nobody wants a war, or any civil disturbance in Ukraine, that would be a tragedy. So, if this situation continues, if outside politicians continue to agitate for regime change, what is to be done. It should be noted that no Russian politicians are in Ukraine agitating, and the statements from Moscow about the situation are against the blatant interference of EU. I already mentioned this, but if the situation goes downhill any further, which is likely, should an option for a plebicite in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea be looked at. I do not know, but if it gets bad, what is preferable, civil war, or at least serious civil disturbance, or a division of Ukraine. Did not the EU get peace prize a few years back for maintaining peace in Europe since the war, hmm

I make no secret that I am not a fan of the EU. What I ask is not to debate the pros and cons of what membership of EU for Ukraine would mean in normal circumstances, but sensible opinion on whether Ukraine should be torn apart because of this issue. Ukraine has problems enough, and I say that this issue makes them worse and should be discarded until such time that Ukraine can be said to be a properly unified country. For instance, when they will vote on what political view they have, and not what language they speak or what side of the Dnieper they live. We don't want another Yugoslavia, and if it goes bad in Ukraine, then it will make Yugoslavia look rather tame, and, being perhaps much too gloomy, could make WWII look rather tame....

Edited December 8, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Mr.United_Nations]

If Ukraine wants to be away from Russia, then let them, they only want a civil war so they can blame the West

[Kaa-Tzik]

If Ukraine wants to be away from Russia, then let them, they only want a civil war so they can blame the West

That is rather crass. Nobody wants a civil war, on what do you base such a statement? And as for "wants to be away from Russia", do the millions of ethnic Russians in Ukraine not have a say in this?

[Mr.United_Nations]

That is rather crass. Nobody wants a civil war, on what do you base such a statement? And as for "wants to be away from Russia", do the millions of ethnic Russians in Ukraine not have a say in this?

The Russians and Anti west will blame the West. Ukraine people should have their own vote, their voice because its their country and their country alone, they can do whatever they want with it, you can't force a country to stick by you or not

[Kaa-Tzik]

The Russians and Anti west will blame the West. Ukraine people should have their own vote, their voice because its their country and their country alone, they can do whatever they want with it, you can't force a country to stick by you or not

I think you should read my posts properly, or read a history of Ukraine, then come back and try making informed comments, because at the moment you are not. You have no answer to the millions of ethnic Russians in Ukraine having a say?. What is your opinion about them?

[Mr.United_Nations]

I think you should read my posts properly, or read a history of Ukraine, then come back and try making informed comments, because at the moment you are not. You have no answer to the millions of ethnic Russians in Ukraine having a say?. What is your opinion about them?

Why should i want to about history? This is about whats best for Ukraine, if they want to be away from Russia, then let the Ukrainians have theirr say. I have said Ukraine needs their own voice, their own vote because its their country not Russia's. Again you cant force another country they will or not do, whats the point of being independent?

[Kaa-Tzik]

Why should i want to about history? This is about whats best for Ukraine, if they want to be away from Russia, then let the Ukrainians have theirr say. I have said Ukraine needs their own voice, their own vote because its their country not Russia's. Again you cant force another country they will or not do, whats the point of being independent?

So, on your own admission you don't know or care about history. Remarkable, as it is all about history. I see you will not, or cannot, answer about ethnic Russians in Ukraine having a say. They are not "colonists" in Ukraine, it is their homeland, and had you bothered to learn any history, or just taken the time to read my posts, you would know this.

[Mr.United_Nations]

So, on your own admission you don't know or care about history. Remarkable, as it is all about history. I see you will not, or cannot, answer about ethnic Russians in Ukraine having a say. They are not "colonists" in Ukraine, it is their homeland, and had you bothered to learn any history, or just taken the time to read my posts, you would know this.

And today is about the future, past is past, Ukraine should be led by Ukrainian people, why can't you see that?

[Kaa-Tzik]

And today is about the future, past is past, Ukraine should be led by Ukrainian people, why can't you see that?

Pity you will not answer my questions about the millions of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.....

[Mr.United_Nations]

Pity you will not answer my questions about the millions of ethnic Russians in Ukraine.....

Why should Russians have their say? Its Ukraine not Russia, why will not you acknowledge the people of Ukraine?

A pity

[Kaa-Tzik]

Why should Russians have their say? Its Ukraine not Russia, why will not you acknowledge the people of Ukraine?

A pity

Are you being wilfully ignorant? This is utterly ridiculous of you. Do you think that everybody in Ukraine is a "Ruthenian", or non Russian speaker? Do you think they all speak the Ukranian version of Eastern Slavonic? Millions of people, the majority of people in Eastern Ukraine, and almost all people in Crimea are Russian speakers. Why do you wilfully ignore this reality? They are also the "people of Ukraine", and I ask again, do they have the right to have their voice heard?

Yanukovich did not sign the deal with EU because the democratically elected Ukranian parliament voted against it. Do you not know that? do you not understand democracy?

[Mr.United_Nations]

Are you being wilfully ignorant? This is utterly ridiculous of you. Do you think that everybody in Ukraine is a "Ruthenian", or non Russian speaker? Do you think they all speak the Ukranian version of Eastern Slavonic? Millions of people, the majority of people in Eastern Ukraine, and almost all people in Crimea are Russian speakers. Why do you wilfully ignore this reality? They are also the "people of Ukraine", and I ask again, do they have the right to have their voice heard?

Yanukovich did not sign the deal with EU because the democratically elected Ukranian parliament voted against it. Do you not know that? do you not understand democracy?

Actually the Ukrainian parliament were forced not to sign it by Russian opposition, thousands of people are protesting because they dont want to be dictated by Russia. But if people are born in Ukraine they should have a vote

[Kaa-Tzik]

Actually the Ukrainian parliament were forced not to sign it by Russian opposition, thousands of people are protesting because they dont want to be dictated by Russia. But if people are born in Ukraine they should have a vote

Give proof that Ukranian parliament was "forced" by Russia not to vote yes, for not even opposition parliamentarians are saying that, only non representative demonstrators on the streets, and of course EU media. I make no mention about the views of citizens of Russian Federation, Russia makes no claims on Ukranian territory, and has never done so, or even slyly hinted that it has. I am only interested that the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine, Ukranian citizens, are allowed their voice. Would you not agree that if the situation degenerates so badly that conflict looks likely, then to avoid bloodshed, it may be necessary to hold a plebicite in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea to ask if the people of those areas wish to remain as part of a "greater Ukraine", or to leave the present state of Ukraine and become part of Russian Federation, or even form their own country.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Give proof that Ukranian parliament was "forced" by Russia not to vote yes, for not even opposition parliamentarians are saying that, only non representative demonstrators on the streets, and of course EU media. I make no mention about the views of citizens of Russian Federation, Russia makes no claims on Ukranian territory, and has never done so, or even slyly hinted that it has. I am only interested that the Russian speaking areas of Ukraine, Ukranian citizens, are allowed their voice. Would you not agree that if the situation degenerates so badly that conflict looks likely, then to avoid bloodshed, it may be necessary to hold a plebicite in Eastern Ukraine and Crimea to ask if the people of those areas wish to remain as part of a "greater Ukraine", or to leave the present state of Ukraine and become part of Russian Federation, or even form their own country.

There will be no conflict and "President Viktor Yanukovych has said he shelved the EU deal after Russian opposition."

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25290959

I did not say Russia owns Ukrain I am saying Russia needs to stop controlling ukraine

[Kaa-Tzik]

There will be no conflict and "President Viktor Yanukovych has said he shelved the EU deal after Russian opposition."

http://www.bbc.co.uk...europe-25290959

I did not say Russia owns Ukrain I am saying Russia needs to stop controlling ukraine

I would take anything the BBC says about Russia with a huge amount of salt because they are anti-Russian to such an extent that they are unhinged. looking at various media across several languages, I see a rather more balanced and realistic view than the BBC, or Sky, or psychotically anti-Russian Daily Telegraph etc. Plenty of people in UK, a healthy majority by any opinion polls, would rather not like Brussels to control the UK. Some people in US States would not like to be controlled by Washington. It cannot be said that Russia can have no opinion about it's neighbour that has a large number of Russian speakers. And as I type this, I hear a BBC correspondent in Kiev saying that Ukraine is a deeply divided country, and talking about a large demonstration by supporters of Yanukovich. It is not a one way anti-Russian - pro EU street in Ukraine. It is best for those not involved to keep out and let Ukranians deal with this. Those EU politicians who have been on the streets of Kiev and called for regime change have committed serious criminal offences and should be arrested. But this will not happen. I hope nobody condones criminal activity of such an extent that it calls for, essentially, revolution. Is that what he EU is about, fomenting revolution in a major European country....

Edited December 8, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik