"Putsch" in Ukraine

[Kaa-Tzik]

Well, it's all over now. The rent-a-mob have failed their masters and are now left stranded in Kiev. Probably be quiet now until elections in 2015, when Klitschko will have had a huge injection of $ and EU support, and $, I think I may have forgotten about the $$$$.

Edited December 10, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

Kaa-Tzik, I’m not questioning your conclusions, predictions or knowledge of history.

We both know our versions, or the way we present certain facts will always differ, so it would be a waste of time if either of us tried to enlighten the other one.

However, I must point out to you that it’s unwise to assume the protestors were paid. If you’re just applying methods of special war so be it, I just hope you don’t really believe it’s a handful of hired people protesting and other hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians just happened to be at Maidan by accident.

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/fotostrecke-massenproteste-in-kiew-fotostrecke-104696-4.html

If it was up to the people, elections would do, there would be no need for demonstrations.

It’s possible to postpone the will of the people, of course, but not to eradicate it. You know the history, so you know exactly what I have in mind.

When a political union fails, no one is more hurt than people whose identity was unitary – clumsy choice of word, but you probably can decipher what I was trying to say. When ex-Yu went to hell, kids from mixed marriages were hurt the most. It was easy to simply stand by your own side, but what should people who felt both sides are theirs do? Split in half? It turned out it’s not that they belong to the both sides, it turned out they don’t belong to any side.

That’s what war does, among other things. It takes the choice away. Makes ethnic lepers.

I’m not forgetting that when I think of Ukraine and that’s just one of the reasons why I hope there won’t be any pacifying you’ve been looking forward to on previous pages.

It would close many doors for many common people. Politicians and oligarchs have their back up plans and opportunities, common people don’t. The dirtier politicians play, the more these commons will suffer.

You’re right about money, it plays huge if not crucial role in this mess. Only you should notice who’s currently profiting in Ukraine (Russian oligarchs) and how fair it is. Combined with repression against the majority in their own land, it doesn’t take any evil US or EU to instigate revolt, the revolt is direct consequence of methods applied by the oligarchy.

You think Ukrainians don't know about corporate West and its cruelty? They're not idiots. They simply chose lesser evil at this moment. Or a different evil, it gets on your nerves when you have to suffer the same pestilence for years.

[Kaa-Tzik]

You’re right about money, it plays huge if not crucial role in this mess. Only you should notice who’s currently profiting in Ukraine (Russian oligarchs) and how fair it is. Combined with repression against the majority in their own land, it doesn’t take any evil US or EU to instigate revolt, the revolt is direct consequence of methods applied by the oligarchy.

The people on the "Russian" side who have profited are some "people" in Lugnask who have now switched sides to Klitschko, taking their parliamentarians with them, and another "person" from Yanukovitch's party now wavers. On the other side perhaps ask, well, best not to name names, but a guy of Hungarian origins and a few of German origins, and where is it $ come from..... There are dirty tricks being played by both sides, we all know this, but the most invidious are those played by EU fan boys as their money is from abroad. Some may say this is treason, and some say Klitschko has already been bought by EU/US, in a way that Yanukovich is not Moscow's man in Ukraine, no matter how the EU/US media lie. If Russia interfered in the politics of say, US or Germany or Poland in the way those countries nakedly interfered in Ukraine these last days, just imagine the screaming hysterical reaction in Brussels and Washington. Kiev has been paralysed to say anything about this, and all Moscow has done is make a few rather muted noises about how ridiculous these EU/US politicians have shown themselves.

The situation should of course be resolved by Ukranians. But who is Ukranian? Let's look at Crimea, they are Russians, yet in the far west, in Zakarpatska Oblast, they are Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks and Rusyns (nothing to do with Russians). As Crimeans want to be either independent of Kiev, if not part of Russia, so those in Zakarpatska also want independence from Kiev, and wanted this in 1991. What is to be done? what is to be done about the most western oblasts that contain the most venement Russian haters, and it is hate, believe me. Ukraine is a like big Yugoslavia, how is it saved from the toilet? I don't know. I am certain that eastern, southern and central Ukraine can hold together as a country without any inter-ethnic problems as the differences are small, and totaly un-noticable to foreigners. But what about the far west, the screamers who get bused into Kiev every so often to "demonstrate", and I don't think they pay their own fares. It is almost always portrayed that the "problem" in Ukraine is the Russian speakers, yet the western media spotlight never shines on the screaming haters in the most western oblasts, no stories of the hate in Lvov, oh no. Sorry, another lecture/history lesson, but I thought to shine a light where it should be shone. One last bold statement, perhaps too bold for some and is not a statement of my personal belief, simply flying a kite. So, Ukraine can perfectly survive as an independent Eastern Slavonic country. Think about it....

I probably said enough now, so respond or not, it doesn't matter. Was sort of expecting somebody from Lvov to join in and say I lie and they all love Russians, or put a curse on me, meh

Edited December 10, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Helen of Annoy]

The people on the "Russian" side who have profited are some "people" in Lugnask who have now switched sides to Klitschko, taking their parliamentarians with them, and another "person" from Yanukovitch's party now wavers. On the other side perhaps ask, well, best not to name names, but a guy of Hungarian origins and a few of German origins, and where is it $ come from.....

Good. I expect more of them to notice that the buses spend awful lot of fuel. Someone has to finance that, it’s not fair EU has to pay for everything. Future members have to do their part too.

There are dirty tricks being played by both sides, we all know this, but the most invidious are those played by EU fan boys as their money is from abroad. Some may say this is treason, and some say Klitschko has already been bought by EU/US,

And some say some of the policemen that had to stand against the protestors will vote for Klitschko too.

Besides, you don't have to buy an Ukrainian for Ukraine, it's more likely you can't buy one against Ukraine.

in a way that Yanukovich is not Moscow's man in Ukraine, no matter how the EU/US media lie.

Oh, come on, don’t give me that low grade propaganda! That was meant for Americans and even they didn’t buy it. Not that they can't tell Yanukovich from Jaruzelsky. I don’t know why Jaruzelsky fell on my mind... Putin has Yanukovich on remote control. I can totally picture Putin thinking he’s pushing buttons on his TV remote, and noticing the channel wasn’t switched but Yanukovich has suddenly frozen on the screen. Damn, says Putin, unfreezes Yanukovich, grabs the right remote and switches the channel.

If Russia interfered in the politics of say, US or Germany or Poland in the way those countries nakedly interfered in Ukraine these last days, just imagine the screaming hysterical reaction in Brussels and Washington. Kiev has been paralysed to say anything about this, and all Moscow has done is make a few rather muted noises about how ridiculous these EU/US politicians have shown themselves.

Chief of the new news agency Putin has set instead of “liquidated” RIA (and it was liquidated chiefly because of "pro-western" propaganda (!)) was more than vocal about it.

The situation should of course be resolved by Ukranians. But who is Ukranian? Let's look at Crimea, they are Russians, yet in the far west, in Zakarpatska Oblast, they are Poles, Hungarians, Romanians, Slovaks and Rusyns (nothing to do with Russians). As Crimeans want to be either independent of Kiev, if not part of Russia, so those in Zakarpatska also want independence from Kiev, and wanted this in 1991. What is to be done? what is to be done about the most western oblasts that contain the most venement Russian haters, and it is hate, believe me. Ukraine is a like big Yugoslavia, how is it saved from the toilet? I don't know. I am certain that eastern, southern and central Ukraine can hold together as a country without any inter-ethnic problems as the differences are small, and totaly un-noticable to foreigners. But what about the far west, the screamers who get bused into Kiev every so often to "demonstrate", and I don't think they pay their own fares. It is almost always portrayed that the "problem" in Ukraine is the Russian speakers, yet the western media spotlight never shines on the screaming haters in the most western oblasts, no stories of the hate in Lvov, oh no. Sorry, another lecture/history lesson, but I thought to shine a light where it should be shone. One last bold statement, perhaps too bold for some and is not a statement of my personal belief, simply flying a kite. So, Ukraine can perfectly survive as an independent Eastern Slavonic country. Think about it....

I hear you and I’m thinking about it, but... nope. First, because Ukraine is Europe and Europe currently needs to connect.

Second, because Yanukovich. Of course one would pop up and make that independence Moscow controlled. Ex-Yu was non-aligned, remember? lol. If it wasn’t so hilarious it would be tragic. Though there were some epic Russia-defying moments. And yes, these were US sponsored. Not to digress too far.

I probably said enough now, so respond or not, it doesn't matter. Was sort of expecting somebody from Lvov to join in and say I lie and they all love Russians, or put a curse on me, meh

They are busy right now. I told you both that you lie and that I love you and now I’ll curse you too for keeping me up so late. The history of Croatia and of Ukraine are so similar it’s as good as it was from Lvov.

(Except that your proxy Serbia was ****ting on our heads over here, but their ambitions were so similar to Russian ambition it was as good as it was from Moscow.)

May we all wake up tomorrow in slightly better world. What? Miracles happen. Only not to us. But one day it must be our turn.

[Mr.United_Nations]

Looks like the president is finally listening to the protesters

"President Yanukovych said on Monday that government officials could visit Brussels this week to resume"

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-25328311

[Kaa-Tzik]

This quote from John Kerry

“The United States expresses its disgust with the decision of Ukrainian authorities to meet the peaceful protests in Kiev’s Maidan Square with riot police, bulldozers and batons,”

Next time the rioters attack Starbucks etc we will see US police bend over for the rioters will we....... This from the country that has police gunning down children in the street and tazers them in school. Something that simply does not happen in Russia, or Ukraine, or Belarus, or Kazakhstan. I wonder what the relatives of the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqi civilians killed by US feel about this sickening hypocrasy. When does Russia tell America what it can or cannot do inside USA? never, when does Russia tell UE what it can or cannot do within EU? never. People can shout all they like about the "big bad bear", at least Russia says what it means and does not engage in this repulsive hypocrasy like Kerry and the moral, political and intellectual pygmies of EU, who still walk about Kiev giving support to "demonstraters" and even dare to lecture the elected president. There are two types of post in this thread, those that are long on fact and short on opinion, (mine), and those that are long on opinion (and naked bias) and short on fact, (others). Dressing up opinion and padding it out with extraneous nonsense is not a substitue for fact. This thread is about situation in Ukraine, not about the "wicked" Serbs, or about forced movements of populations within Soviet Union in the days of Stalin. A very noisy, and clearly foreign supported minority, are "demonstrating" in Kiev and call for regime change. Is the elected government then to surrender to any noisy minority. Can any minority then "demonstrate" in any EU or US city and their demands must be met? Are we now in a post democratic age when goverments rise and fall on the basis of the mob on the street? It would be interesting if a poster without an inbuilt bias against Russia, or Eastern Slavonic speakers in general, were to make honest comment. Plenty in UK and a few other EU countries want nothing to do with EU, so what do you think of the tactics used by EU politicians to call for regime change in a major European country in order to get that country into EU?

[Helen of Annoy]

Self-control, brate, self-control!

I’d love to pull an unbiased rabbit out the hat for you, but it’s not my fault last century was fruitful with bias-inducing events.

Obviously, there’s something wrong with democracy if it makes people stand in the square in this cold. Not to mention they’re not only standing and singing, they are also risking the police cracks their heads open.

http://www.spiegel.de/fotostrecke/ukraine-klitschko-versus-janukowitsch-fotostrecke-104834-5.html

There’s no democracy more direct than this democracy we witness right now in Ukraine.

Countries where majority wants out of EU, should get out. Naturally. You can’t force anyone to adopt European identity, just like you can’t force anyone European to adopt any other identity. Especially if the forced identity comes from someone in identity crisis...

Proper European countries are finally gathering in EU. Most naturally. The unnatural de-Europeization had its chance for almost a century. It’s really about time it stops. It failed. It’s enough.

I’m not certain, but I have warm and fuzzy feeling Moscow is arranging new deals with sane and useful people willing to lead European Ukraine and make Ukraine a bridge between Russia and EU. Yanukovich and minorities manipulated into Europhobia are only getting in the way of another natural process, you know. As natural as the natural gas Said minorities will certainly be useful negotiating tool, but that’s natural too.

Come on, don’t be a sourpuss, sing the Ode to Joy with me.

[Kaa-Tzik]

There’s no democracy more direct than this democracy we witness right now in Ukraine.

The "democracy" that comes out of barrel of a $ and a euro. Ha, I don't even have the wretched symbol on my keyboard.

So, songs you want, well songs you will have, but not eurotrash

And something else. Kuban Cossack Choir singing Ukrainian song. So, are they Ukranians or Russians, or Russian Ukranians or Ukranian Russians? who is it for foreigners from EU or anywhere else to say who is who, or now blue and yellow flag is lowered and toilet paper blue rag flag with stars is raised? Now can some moron politician in Brussels or Washington dare interfere in this.

Enjoy the music and forget the "walking dead" eurotrash (fantastic and witty emoticon would be here, but...)

Edited December 11, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[bmk1245]

Yet I have been very careful to say, several times, that Russia has made NO claims on Ukranian territory, or Lithuanian or Latvian, and has not even taken in Abkhazia and South Ossetia when it could easily do so, and with the enthusiastic support of the population of those areas who want to be within Russian Federation. Who speaks for a "Greater Russia"? not Putin, not even the idiot Zhirinovsky. This fear of a "Greater Russia" is only in peoples minds, it is not a reality.[...]

Of course Putin nor clown Zhirinovskyi do not do that openly, but I bet they wet dreaming about that.

[...] Nobody wants any civil war, except maybe those foriegners shouting from the sidelines, and injecting money to various Western Ukrainian political groups and paramilitaries. You know about the Ukranian nationalist paramilitaries in Lvov with their Western money and NATO "advisors"? You speak of the "Rights of the majority", fine, then on that basis Western Ukraine with 79% wanting EU should join, and the 75% of those in Eastern Ukraine against EU will not. [...]

Of course, its only minority for EU... Lets see: even for entering EU in 5 years - 37%, and 31% against. If you add all for EU - you will get 58%. Here is another number - 40% for EU, And another 48% for EU. Add undecided (and other "mayby in 20 years"), in later numbers, and your "majority" will become minority.

[...] Now what happens.... And let's not forget the wishes of the overwhelming majority in Crimea to leave Ukraine. Few days back the Crimean parliament declared, when situation in Kiev looked really bad, that if any coup against democratically elected government was succesful, then they would declare Crimea to be independant and ask Russia for protection. Such announcments are extremely serious.

I heard that from fifth column 23 years ago, a lot... Edited December 11, 2013 by bmk1245

[Kaa-Tzik]

Of course Putin nor clown Zhirinovskyi do not do that openly, but I bet they wet dreaming about that.

Of course, its only minority for EU... Lets see: even for entering EU in 5 years - 37%, and 31% against. If you add all for EU - you will get 58%. Here is another number - 40% for EU, And another 48% for EU. Add undecided (and other "mayby in 20 years"), in later numbers, and your "majority" will become minority.

I heard that from fifth column 23 years ago, a lot...

But what is to stop Putin or Zhirinovsky saying it openly? maybe Putin for diplomatic reasons, if he even thinks such things, and there is no evidence. And Zhirinovsky gives a damn about diplomacy....

Your first link will not open for me. But I got RIA, before it is silent... And I am strongly against that by the way, shocking decision. Anyway, it is of course polls over all Ukraine, yet to me, the important element is the regional breakdown. Fine, if say 51% of all ukranians vote for eurotrash, but that will mean majority in East and Crimea have no choice. This is what may break Ukraine, this is what my posts are about. In most countries in their elections is normally an even spread over entire country of votes for, say a party of the right or one of the left. Whatever party wins, it does not disposses one actual physical half of the country, so there is no split. But in Ukraine there is this ethnic geographic split. When one region, in any country, votes opposite another, then that is recipy for disaster. Even America suffered this.

About Crimea, again I invite you to stand in Simferopol or Sevastopol and tell them who they are or what they want.....

[Helen of Annoy]

The "democracy" that comes out of barrel of a $ and a euro. Ha, I don't even have the wretched symbol on my keyboard.

Yes, yes, while the one way trip to Siberia is still free in proverbially democratic Russia... oh, wait, I just understood what’s the problem here: we have completely different definitions of democracy.

Apparently, you think democracy is what we call totalitarianism.

How Orwellian of you.

Enjoy the music and forget the "walking dead" eurotrash (fantastic and witty emoticon would be here, but...)

But the lighthouse was out so you couldn't find it?

Don't you worry, I’m enjoying the music. Especially the tiny violin you played so touchingly in this thread.

[+and-then]

I admit my near total ignorance of what is going on here but I have to wonder about one thing. Are there not ethnic Russians in most, if not all of the former SSR's? And would they not, necessarily, be more attached to Russia than their current location? From here it looks like Putin is using whatever means he can to restructure the old power base of the USSR. He's rebuilding the army and rocket forces at a fever pitch. Creating alliances in the ME and elsewhere to constrain the US and EU. All of that is understandable for a former world power's leaders to desire to accomplish but let's call it what it is eh? I have no fear of the Bear - people will either be willing to be free of domination or they will be enslaved, it has always been that way. The difference in how LONG one is enslaved is how willing they are to die for freedom. If the Ukrainian situation causes an intervention to protect the ethnic Russian population then I think we can safely say a pattern is developing, no?

[Helen of Annoy]

I admit my near total ignorance of what is going on here but I have to wonder about one thing. Are there not ethnic Russians in most, if not all of the former SSR's? And would they not, necessarily, be more attached to Russia than their current location? From here it looks like Putin is using whatever means he can to restructure the old power base of the USSR. He's rebuilding the army and rocket forces at a fever pitch. Creating alliances in the ME and elsewhere to constrain the US and EU. All of that is understandable for a former world power's leaders to desire to accomplish but let's call it what it is eh? I have no fear of the Bear - people will either be willing to be free of domination or they will be enslaved, it has always been that way. The difference in how LONG one is enslaved is how willing they are to die for freedom. If the Ukrainian situation causes an intervention to protect the ethnic Russian population then I think we can safely say a pattern is developing, no?

There are Russians in most countries that used to be former SSSR.

Some are ethnic Russians, some are military and bureaucratic migrations.

(We had similar situation in ex-Yu, since Serbs were hegemonic nation, much like Russians in former SSSR, they were preferred in military and state bureaucracy.)

The bizarre idea seen on previous pages, where ethnic Russians by profession and Russians who were brought to Ukraine are more important than domicile population (sane people who are accidentally Russian included) is not new. Stalin started with that: first he reduced Ukrainian population by forever disputed number of millions of actual Ukrainians who died in genocide by hunger (Golodomor in 1932-33), then he populated the area with more Russians, whose existence was and still is closely tied to former SSSR's, today Russia's military.

The good news is that Russia probably isn’t interested in conflict.

Look at Moscow, suddenly distancing from Yanukovich. He is suddenly willing to negotiate and even to free arrested protesters. There’s too much Russia would lose even if they’d win Crimea in an actual war. (Whole Ukraine is out the question, even in the most deranged fantasies that include a nuke or two. It simply wouldn’t be the first time Ukraine was levelled with the ground.)

The bad news was seen on previous pages.

Edited December 13, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[Kaa-Tzik]

The OP is about the situation in Ukraine. Not Yugoslavia in 1990s, or events in Soviet Union. This moaning about Soviet Union, Putin, KGB is simply a deliberate distraction from the OP and is used as an excuse to attack Russia. Specific issues I have raised are ignored in favor of garbage about being transported to Siberia, and it goes on and on. It is very clear that not one person who has made a post, other than me, has any interest in the fate of Ukraine and it's people, only about waving EU flag and endlessly moaning about Putin, who has said hardlly a single word about this situation. It is clear that the wishes of anybody not wanting to join EU are are ignored, and that the only "correct" views about EU are of those wanting into EU. The newest members of this quasi Soviet state called EU are of course shrillest in EU flag waving, and sometimes it seems to me to be rather contrived and almost as if they try to convince themselves their countries have not made a terrible descision.

That these demonstrations have been going on for so long, and so loudly, is now very suspicious. It is simply about deal with EU being out on hold, not even rejected. The level of hysteria shown by the protesters is out of all proportion to the event, it is at a level that could be expected if Ukraine were about to launch and unprovoked attack on, say, Moldova, or Lichtenstein. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, remember him? the clever and moral guy who made Obama and Kerry look like the moral and intellectual pygmies they are, well, he has said that the situation in Kiev is "incomprehensible", and to anybody with any intelligence it is as well. A link to his remarks about the Ukraine situation. Anybody here actually interested in what is happening in Ukraine today, and not Soviet Union, Putin/KGB or "wicked" Serbs.....

http://rt.com/news/l...ovocations-243/

Edited December 14, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Kaa-Tzik]

There are Russians in most countries that used to be former SSSR.

Some are ethnic Russians, some are military and bureaucratic migrations.

(We had similar situation in ex-Yu, since Serbs were hegemonic nation, much like Russians in former SSSR, they were preferred in military and state bureaucracy.)

The bizarre idea seen on previous pages, where ethnic Russians by profession and Russians who were brought to Ukraine are more important than domicile population (sane people who are accidentally Russian included) is not new. Stalin started with that: first he reduced Ukrainian population by forever disputed number of millions of actual Ukrainians who died in genocide by hunger (Golodomor in 1932-33), then he populated the area with more Russians, whose existence was and still is closely tied to former SSSR's, today Russia's military.

The good news is that Russia probably isn’t interested in conflict.

Look at Moscow, suddenly distancing from Yanukovich. He is suddenly willing to negotiate and even to free arrested protesters. There’s too much Russia would lose even if they’d win Crimea in an actual war. (Whole Ukraine is out the question, even in the most deranged fantasies that include a nuke or two. It simply wouldn’t be the first time Ukraine was levelled with the ground.)

The bad news was seen on previous pages.

These are simply your opinions, and you are renowned for you vitriolic anti-Russian views. Your comments on the Golodomor are wrong and disgusting propoganda vomitted mostly by the descendents of Ukranian fascists who live in Canada, with many also in US and UK. Certainly Ukraine has been levelled to the ground, by the nazis during the war. Pity you still obviously have no regard whatsoever for the views of Ukranians, Russian speakers or not. Like I said several times now, go to Simferopol and Sevastopol and tell them their ancestors were "shipped in" by Stalin, or who they are or what they want. Your bias clouds your mind to reality and makes you a less than honest commentator about this affair. It is clear you care nothing about any Ukranians except those in the far western oblasts, and I suspect not out of any love, but out of cynical regard for their hatred of Russia.

[Frank Merton]

I don't get Yeltsin. He could go down in history as one of the greatest of Russian leaders if he would incorporate Russia into Europe (along with Ukraine and the rest). Oh it would take a couple of decades but what an achievement that would be. Instead he seems to still harbor the old paranoia about the West. Russia is a European nation.

[Kaa-Tzik]

I admit my near total ignorance of what is going on here but I have to wonder about one thing. Are there not ethnic Russians in most, if not all of the former SSR's? And would they not, necessarily, be more attached to Russia than their current location? From here it looks like Putin is using whatever means he can to restructure the old power base of the USSR. He's rebuilding the army and rocket forces at a fever pitch. Creating alliances in the ME and elsewhere to constrain the US and EU. All of that is understandable for a former world power's leaders to desire to accomplish but let's call it what it is eh? I have no fear of the Bear - people will either be willing to be free of domination or they will be enslaved, it has always been that way. The difference in how LONG one is enslaved is how willing they are to die for freedom. If the Ukrainian situation causes an intervention to protect the ethnic Russian population then I think we can safely say a pattern is developing, no?

There are no intentions of intervening in any ex Soviet country. Some in the Baltics may shout about Russia, yet Russia does not shout about them..... As I have mentioned, probably to many times already, Russia has never made a single demand on Ukranian territory, or on Belarus or Kazakhstan or any territory that was not part of Russian SSR at falll of Soviet Union. These noises about Russia wantin to expand into territories once part of Soviet Union or old Russian Empire are nonsense without a single fact to back them up. And about any new "arms race". How many US overseas bases are there, and how many Russian ones. Of what military pact is Russia a member of and, and od any of these mythical other member nations border the US. Why does NATO exist when Warsaw Pact is long dead? NATO is on Russia's borders, yet not a word about that is to be said. Think about your own comments about Israel.. The media still talks aboiut how Russia must want to invade western Europe, and that tank armies could be in Berlin or Paris on days. Yet does it not seem to defy commonsense that if when Soviet power stretched to Lubeck, Braunschwieg, Fulda, and no attempt to invade was made, that Russia should now invade from as far east as Smolensk! Look at map of NATO countries and US bases in countries not even in NATO, and tell me that Russia is a threat.....

[Kaa-Tzik]

I don't get Yeltsin. He could go down in history as one of the greatest of Russian leaders if he would incorporate Russia into Europe (along with Ukraine and the rest). Oh it would take a couple of decades but what an achievement that would be. Instead he seems to still harbor the old paranoia about the West. Russia is a European nation.

I think you mean Putin, as Yeltsin is the man most responsible for this mess. However, Russia is European and Asian. Certainly the vast majority of people who are citizens of Russian Federation are ethnic Russians and are European. Though since Yermak Timofeevich crossed the Urals in 1580 and began the conquest of Siberia, and the eventual march to the Pacific, Russia became an Empire of west and east. If you ask a fair haired blue eyed ethnic Russian in Novosibirsk if they were European, which they clearly are by ethnicity, the answer would likely be no, and they would say they were Russian, or may even say Siberian before Russian. Russia does not need to belong to any political blok, free trade area yes, but not political as EU has become. EU would not want Russia anyway as it would not take even one diktat from Brussels. You say about Putin being "paranoid". Yet look at map of where Warsaw Pact, and were NATO and US bases are today, then is there not reason to be be, not "paranoid", but cautious. NATO is on doorstep of Peterburg, Russia is not on doorstep of New York. Baltic states say they need to be in NATO because if they are not then Russia will invade. BS, if there was any intention then they would not have been allowed to leave USSR. Once more in this thread, I invite anybody to quote a single word of Yeltsin, Putin or Medvedev saying they want ex Soviet territories under Russian control. Yet we drown in the words of western politicians and media saying that Russia is a threat to western Europe, if not about to launch attack within days, and all these words are complete fabricated BS for consumption by their own badly informed populations.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Frank Merton]

I got my names wrong; sorry. Yes I know about Asiatic Russia. I think they should give it independence but that won't happen considering the resources there, so it would become part of the European entity, just as places like Greenland and Bermuda are even though they are not strictly "Europe."

[Frank Merton]

As far as the fears of Russian hegemony/seizure/whatever, I would only say that history is a hard thing to live down. It's perhaps comparable to Korean reluctance to get too close to Japan.

[Kaa-Tzik]

From here it looks like Putin is using whatever means he can to restructure the old power base of the USSR. He's rebuilding the army and rocket forces at a fever pitch. Creating alliances in the ME and elsewhere to constrain the US and EU

NATO, same as Soviet Union, maintained long range air patrols over the North Atlantic, in particular the area, Scotland, Iceland to Greenland. Russia, after fall of USSR, cancelled all these patrols. A few years back, 2010 I think, there was hysteria in media, UK mostly, that Russia had begun these patrols again. Yet I saw no mention in the UK or US media that NATO, meaning in this case the US, had never cancelled their patrols after fall of USSR and have continued them to the present day. So, it's okay for US to have these patrols, and for nearly twenty years after end of cold war, but not Russia? really.....

After 1991 nearly all spending on Russian armed forces stopped. You all seen the pictures of rusting warships and submarines, and maybe the vast numbers of tanks lined up in areas east of Urals and rusting away. Did NATO do similar on such a huge scale? did US stop military spending for more than a decade? Well, no, it has constantly expanded, along with aggressive wars of course. US military is constantly upgraded, yet Russia does not yet have a fifth generation fighter in service, soon, but not yet. Tanks are all ancient and are from 1960s designs. Latest tank, T-90MS has new turret on T-90 (T-72) hull, yet is severely constrained as it has to fit on a too small turret ring diameter for what is require for truely modern tank. T-90MS is only for export anyway as T-95 project was cancelled. So, no new tanks. Apart from late Soviet era Msta-S, in comparitively few numbers, the artillery is also as ancient as the tanks. TOS-1A, usually called "Buratino" as a highly mobile short range rocket system, looks good on youtube videos, and is good, but how many? enough to launch WWIII? well, hardly. Then there is the other hi-profile "toy" BMPT "Terminator", how many of these cool looking modern machines? I think about six, yes six!. Then submarines. Most of Typhoons, all seven of them, I think, are in port and are to be replaced. How many replacements?, on your post it must be considerable numbers. So let's see, lets give a long list of names of new SSBNs. Yuri Dolgorukiy, oh, thats it, just the one. Well, what a huge build up of forces eh. Much Russian equipement is obsolete, and it is not possible to upgrade without hysteria about "built up" for sinister purposes?. Most of the sexy looking new stuff exist only as a few toys.

See, I allowed myself to be distracted from Ukraine. Could almost think it was on purpose these posts offtopic......

Edited December 14, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik

[Frank Merton]

See, I allowed myself to be distracted from Ukraine. Could almost think it was on purpose these posts offtopic......

It's context.

[Kaa-Tzik]

I got my names wrong; sorry. Yes I know about Asiatic Russia. I think they should give it independence but that won't happen considering the resources there, so it would become part of the European entity, just as places like Greenland and Bermuda are even though they are not strictly "Europe."

Though we cannot see the future, I am very confident that there will never be a split from Russian Federation of Siberia and far east. There is no desire, no matter about a "Siberian" identity. There however is a potential future problem of China. An independant Siberia will look tempting......

[Helen of Annoy]

The OP is about the situation in Ukraine. Not Yugoslavia in 1990s, or events in Soviet Union.

You know damn well why is parallel between former SSSR and former Yugoslavia valid and useful. Deal with it or disprove it.

This moaning about Soviet Union, Putin, KGB is simply a deliberate distraction from the OP and is used as an excuse to attack Russia. Specific issues I have raised are ignored in favor of garbage about being transported to Siberia, and it goes on and on. It is very clear that not one person who has made a post, other than me, has any interest in the fate of Ukraine and it's people, only about waving EU flag and endlessly moaning about Putin, who has said hardlly a single word about this situation. It is clear that the wishes of anybody not wanting to join EU are are ignored, and that the only "correct" views about EU are of those wanting into EU.

You're the one that constantly brings Putin in this thread. The whole point is that situation in Ukraine should have very little to do with Putin.

The newest members of this quasi Soviet state called EU are of course shrillest in EU flag waving, and sometimes it seems to me to be rather contrived and almost as if they try to convince themselves their countries have not made a terrible descision.

Ah, so Russia trying to put together a commonwealth or whatever is not quasi Soviet, but EU is?

EU is not yet what it is supposed to be one day, so far it’s only a pile of bureaucratic parasites on top of vast unused potentials, but this is simply a phase in evolution of Europe and Europeans. At the moment, whole world suffers from passively consumerist delusions, but that will change soon enough.

That these demonstrations have been going on for so long, and so loudly, is now very suspicious. It is simply about deal with EU being out on hold, not even rejected. The level of hysteria shown by the protesters is out of all proportion to the event, it is at a level that could be expected if Ukraine were about to launch and unprovoked attack on, say, Moldova, or Lichtenstein. Russian foreign minister Sergei Lavrov, remember him? the clever and moral guy who made Obama and Kerry look like the moral and intellectual pygmies they are, well, he has said that the situation in Kiev is "incomprehensible", and to anybody with any intelligence it is as well. A link to his remarks about the Ukraine situation. Anybody here actually interested in what is happening in Ukraine today, and not Soviet Union, Putin/KGB or "wicked" Serbs.....

Yes, Sergei, I remember you when you posted under different name and you were equally frustrated because no one outside Russia is buying your Kremlinesque demagogy.

http://rt.com/news/l...ovocations-243/

You didn’t post a link to that freshly installed Russian regime agency?! Tell me you didn’t.

These are simply your opinions, and you are renowned for you vitriolic anti-Russian views. Your comments on the Golodomor are wrong and disgusting propoganda vomitted mostly by the descendents of Ukranian fascists who live in Canada, with many also in US and UK. Certainly Ukraine has been levelled to the ground, by the nazis during the war. Pity you still obviously have no regard whatsoever for the views of Ukranians, Russian speakers or not. Like I said several times now, go to Simferopol and Sevastopol and tell them their ancestors were "shipped in" by Stalin, or who they are or what they want. Your bias clouds your mind to reality and makes you a less than honest commentator about this affair. It is clear you care nothing about any Ukranians except those in the far western oblasts, and I suspect not out of any love, but out of cynical regard for their hatred of Russia.

You should learn how to recognize the difference between political and national identities.

You clearly can’t think outside stereotype and you keep insisting I’m hostile though the previous pages show without any doubt who is hostile chauvinist here.

Thank you again for your contribution, you Golodomor denier.

And then you wonder why no one trusts you.

I suggest you do something useful and try making grownup conversation. Screaming how discriminated you are is pathetic, unfounded and hurts your case more than anyone else’s.

So, grownups would point out that Yanukovich has offered symbolic signs of good will (not to use the exact term), like amnesty for arrested protestors, but Ukrainian opposition is not impressed. They know there’s absolutely nothing wrong in protesting against foreign influence that is against your country’s interests. So it’s not amnesty Yanukovich has to offer for starts, it’s removing of officials responsible for arresting protestors in the first place.

Discuss it, if you can.

Or keep cheering for Russian armed retaliation outside Russian borders, in sovereign state, while simultaneously whining how discriminated you are.

Edit: Oh, look... Yanukovich relieved of duty two guys responsible for attacks on peaceful protestors.

They’ll be placed in house arrest. Weird, but true.

Maybe Lavrov will conclude that Yanukovich was bought too and then we’d be getting somewhere.

Edited December 14, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[Kaa-Tzik]

You know damn well why is parallel between former SSSR and former Yugoslavia valid and useful. Deal with it or disprove it.

You're the one that constantly brings Putin in this thread. The whole point is that situation in Ukraine should have very little to do with Putin.

Ah, so Russia trying to put together a commonwealth or whatever is not quasi Soviet, but EU is?

EU is not yet what it is supposed to be one day, so far it’s only a pile of bureaucratic parasites on top of vast unused potentials, but this is simply a phase in evolution of Europe and Europeans. At the moment, whole world suffers from passively consumerist delusions, but that will change soon enough.

Yes, Sergei, I remember you when you posted under different name and you were equally frustrated because no one outside Russia is buying your Kremlinesque demagogy.

You didn’t post a link to that freshly installed Russian regime agency?! Tell me you didn’t.

You should learn how to recognize the difference between political and national identities.

You clearly can’t think outside stereotype and you keep insisting I’m hostile though the previous pages show without any doubt who is hostile chauvinist here.

Thank you again for your contribution, you Golodomor denier.

And then you wonder why no one trusts you.

I suggest you do something useful and try making grownup conversation. Screaming how discriminated you are is pathetic, unfounded and hurts your case more than anyone else’s.

So, grownups would point out that Yanukovich has offered symbolic signs of good will (not to use the exact term), like amnesty for arrested protestors, but Ukrainian opposition is not impressed. They know there’s absolutely nothing wrong in protesting against foreign influence that is against your country’s interests. So it’s not amnesty Yanukovich has to offer for starts, it’s removing of officials responsible for arresting protestors in the first place.

Discuss it, if you can.

Or keep cheering for Russian armed retaliation outside Russian borders, in sovereign state, while simultaneously whining how discriminated you are.

Edit: Oh, look... Yanukovich relieved of duty two guys responsible for attacks on peaceful protestors.

They’ll be placed in house arrest. Weird, but true.

Maybe Lavrov will conclude that Yanukovich was bought too and then we’d be getting somewhere.

That post is all about defending your personal bias and is unworthy of you. I rather think that anybody "sitting on the fence" will notice how un-balanced your posts are. Critiscising a link because it is to RT is ridiculous, should I have put a link to Vesti or channel One or NTV or Lenta that nobody will understand?. Perhaps you can show a link to his words on another English language channel, or not. You are long on opinion and distorting, and very short on fact. And stop telling me or anybody else what I think. If I were a "Holodomor denier", then don't you think that I would never have even mentioned it, eh. And show one instance were I have called for "Russian armed intervention abroad". That is absolutely a lie. Seems you want to close down this debate, doesn't it......

Edited December 14, 2013 by Kaa-Tzik