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Copen

Why was there no room in the Inn?

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The owner of the Inn was prepared for the influx of people coming to register. Mary showed up, was due to deliver right then after traveling about 100 miles from Nazareth to Bethlehem. The Innkeeper could not afford to let them have the room. It would have made that room un-rentable and considered unclean for 40 days. Joseph was too poor himself to rent it for 40 days.

A woman who delivered a child was unclean because she was still issuing blood. If she delivered a male child she had to go through a purification for 40 days of isolation. She may not go into the sanctuary or touch anything holy. Her husband may not sleep in the same bed where she is passing blood.

The male child is to be circumcised on the 8th day; but it was not done in the Jerusalem Temple. Mary could not travel and they didn't have baby bottles in that day. The baby had to eat.

If Mary was unclean after having her firstborn child, Jesus, then that shoots a hole in the immaculate conception. She would not have had to go through a purification.

"Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean? Not one." Job 14: 4 Who can being a baby out clean who came out of an unclean woman. No one is clean, except Jesus. Man was created in the image of God. But Jesus was created in the "EXPRESS IMAGE" of God. He had something a little more than anyone else which kept Him clean and without sin.

God bless us all is my prayer.

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No one is clean, except Jesus.

With respect, I'd say it's my experience that no one is clean, except children.

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If you throw away the notion that Jesus is the sinless God, you will be able to see the Gospel in a very different light.

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Duh! The inn was already full when they got there. There was no room available. Quite possible they were running late BECAUSE they were poor and Mary was pregnant and thus not able to travel as quickly as the other travellers.

Stables were often used as excess accommodation for travellers when inns were full, right up until a hundred years or so ago. Why make something of it which was not the case? I mean are you saying that an innkeeper could/would never rent out a room to a visibly pregnant woman in case she gave birth?

The "cleanliness" of Christ, and any argument surrounding it, is a totally different issue.

I also think you are mixing/confusing contemporary jewish tradition (of the time) with much later catholic theology. Naturally the two are contradictory.

Besides all of that, what sort of Christmas story would it be if Mary gave birth in the best room in the inn, without the sheep and cattle etc. and attended by midwives, servants and the best of care, rather than by shepherds and wise men :innocent:

Edited by Mr Walker
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Man was created in the image of God. But Jesus was created in the "EXPRESS IMAGE" of God.

Just wondering if this is your personal belief or is it the belief of a particular religious denomination?

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Assuming there was an inn and an innkeeper.

In the original greek text Luke uses to word "καταλυματι" (Katalymati) which doesn't mean inn - it means lodging, accommodations or guest room/dinning room. the normal greek word for inn would be "πανδοχειον" (pandocheion) as we see it in luke 10:34 as the place where the good samaritan takes the wounded man.

1st century jewish wedding had two phases:

1) a betrhotal, a ceremony taking place in the house of the bride's father - which would explain what Joseph was doing in Nazareth

2) a wedding ceremony ending with a home-taking, bringing the bride from har father's house and into that of her husbond. Which makes sense, since a roman census had you register where you owned land, so unless Joseph owned land in bethlehem he wouldn't be required to register there.

Luke clearly distinguis between bethroted (when they leave nazareth) and wife (once they are in bethlehem) - so there's quite a time jump, and the wedding takes place in bethlehem sometime before Jesus birth.

Most houses back then had one or two big rooms and often built fronting natural caves - during the night the animals would be brought in and keept in the back cave area and feed in stone mangers sometimes carved in the rock or used to divide animals from humans - A married couple usually moved into a room in the groom's father's house, until they could build their own. So when Luke says "because there was no room for them in the accomodations" he probably means the room they lived in was to small seeing as there would be midwives and relatives present at the birth and she moved to the mainroom/frontroom where the stone mangers and animals where.

This is what happens when a text is translated countless times or when we forget the time it portrais.

Edited by poetofsheba
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Just wondering if this is your personal belief or is it the belief of a particular religious denomination?

I was quoting scripture that says in Genesis that man was made in the image of God. I was also quoting scripture that says Jesus was the "express image" of God which means Jesus could be sinless because in the flesh He was with the same express being as God.

I don't know if that is something a particular denomination teaches; but as far as I know, all Christians churches believe Jesus was without sin. Or else He would have needed a savior, too. I was just bringing out how it was possible for Jesus to have power to not sin. He was the "express image" of God.

At the same time, I was saying the Blessed Virgin Mary was not without sin, (although she was pretty darn good), because (also quoting scripture) - a clean thing cannot come out of an unclean thing. That includes babies.

I know babies are sweet and I love them that I know personally; but the Law is summed up in two laws. Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind AND love thy neighbor as thyself.

Those two commandments prove an infant is self centered and will show selfishness over some very funny things. Funny to mankind - but unfortunately reveal just how impossible it is to be saved by not breaking the law - - even the newborn.

God bless.

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The answer here is obvious.

It was the Christmas season, all the inns were booked solid.

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Assuming there was an inn and an innkeeper.

In the original greek text Luke uses to word "κaτaλυμaτι" (Katalymati) which doesn't mean inn - it means lodging, accommodations or guest room/dinning room. the normal greek word for inn would be "πaνδοχειον" (pandocheion) as we see it in luke 10:34 as the place where the good samaritan takes the wounded man.

1st century jewish wedding had two phases:

1) a betrhotal, a ceremony taking place in the house of the bride's father - which would explain what Joseph was doing in Nazareth

2) a wedding ceremony ending with a home-taking, bringing the bride from har father's house and into that of her husbond. Which makes sense, since a roman census had you register where you owned land, so unless Joseph owned land in bethlehem he wouldn't be required to register there.

Luke clearly distinguis between bethroted (when they leave nazareth) and wife (once they are in bethlehem) - so there's quite a time jump, and the wedding takes place in bethlehem sometime before Jesus birth.

Most houses back then had one or two big rooms and often built fronting natural caves - during the night the animals would be brought in and keept in the back cave area and feed in stone mangers sometimes carved in the rock or used to divide animals from humans - A married couple usually moved into a room in the groom's father's house, until they could build their own. So when Luke says "because there was no room for them in the accomodations" he probably means the room they lived in was to small seeing as there would be midwives and relatives present at the birth and she moved to the mainroom/frontroom where the stone mangers and animals where.

This is what happens when a text is translated countless times or when we forget the time it portrais.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says - Inn: in the Greek "kataluma" pronounced "kat-al'-oo-mah" meaning: "a dissolution or breaking up of a journey, guest chamber, inn - implied a lodging place."

Since it is in agreement with KJV, I'll accept what the KJV says. God has proved His endorsement of the KJV with revivals unmatched with any other English translation.

It was an Inn and when it comes to putting a room out of commission for 40 days if a male child was born in it or 80 days if a female child was born in it - - - the Innkeeper had no room.

Jewish marriages were not after Roman customs. Jews were constantly at odds with the Romans. The Bible says God gives everything twice in the Bible for our strong consolation. The Bible also says the physical things reveal the spiritual things. Therefore, go to the Bible and learn the customs of Jewish marriage. Not today's custom - the Bible's example.

The example of Isaac getting a bride is a physical example of how the spiritual happens. The father, Abraham, sent his good and faithful unnamed servant (symbol of Holy Spirit) to get a bride (symbol of the church) for his son, (symbol of Jesus). The servant asked for spiritual guidance in selecting Isaac's bride. The servant was led to Rebekah. The servant did not ask Rebekah if she willed to marry Isaac. He went to her father (symbol of the Law) and asked for her using some pretty persuasive points with valuable gifts. (Jesus gives the gift of eternal life.) The father agreed. Then as the custom was, the bride would go to visit relatives and tell them of this wonderful husband and his gifts (gospel being spread) while he would prepare a place for her. She agreed to forgo this custom and go directly to her husband.

But the Blessed Virgin Mary continued the custom. Even though they had not come together, they were married before she conceived in Nazareth. They were legally married the moment the price was paid for her. She went to visit her relative, Elisabeth. By the way, the Bible says if a child is conceived out of wedlock the male child is not allowed to ever enter the Temple. He would not be qualified to be our High Priest and certainly not our Savior. (Well, the child had nothing to do with it - right? That shows the seriousness of disobeying God and the consequences.)

Joseph was in Bethlehem because the Romans were trying to stimulate the economy at a time of the year when very little commerce was happening by making everyone register in the city of their ancestry. It was quite physically possible for everyone to register right where they lived. Every 10 years the US takes a census of everyone right where they live. But the Romans required this registry in such as way as to cause everyone to spend some money preparing for it and traveling to the places. Everyone had to do that, so they couldn't all travel on the same day. Some trips took longer than others. It would have been a period of continual influx of people in every city.

Joseph was of the lineage of David and had to travel from Nazareth to Bethlehem about 100 miles away. Mary was "great with child" when they left. Nazareth was where Joseph lived and where they returned from their flight to Egypt. Joseph was poor and had no land in Bethlehem or anywhere else. The required sacrifice from poor parents for a male child is proof that they were poor.

When Joseph heard the Blessed Virgin Mary was pregnant, he thought he would not humiliate her, but would put her away privately. If they had not been legally married already, Joseph would not have had any authority to do anything about Mary's situation. It would have been completely up to her father.

God bless.

Edited by Copen

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I was quoting scripture that says in Genesis that man was made in the image of God. I was also quoting scripture that says Jesus was the "express image" of God which means Jesus could be sinless because in the flesh He was with the same express being as God.

I don't know if that is something a particular denomination teaches; but as far as I know, all Christians churches believe Jesus was without sin. Or else He would have needed a savior, too. I was just bringing out how it was possible for Jesus to have power to not sin. He was the "express image" of God.

At the same time, I was saying the Blessed Virgin Mary was not without sin, (although she was pretty darn good), because (also quoting scripture) - a clean thing cannot come out of an unclean thing. That includes babies.

I know babies are sweet and I love them that I know personally; but the Law is summed up in two laws. Love the Lord God with all your heart, soul, and mind AND love thy neighbor as thyself.

Those two commandments prove an infant is self centered and will show selfishness over some very funny things. Funny to mankind - but unfortunately reveal just how impossible it is to be saved by not breaking the law - - even the newborn.

God bless.

But a child is innocent BECAUSE it does not know better. Sin comes about from disobedience chosen, not disobedience from default

The answer here is obvious.

It was the Christmas season, all the inns were booked solid.

Except it wasnt....... Oh i see you are beng humorous

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Strong's Exhaustive Concordance says - Inn: in the Greek "kataluma" pronounced "kat-al'-oo-mah" meaning: "a dissolution or breaking up of a journey, guest chamber, inn - implied a lodging place."

"καταλυματι" (Katalymati) literally means breaking up or untying as you said, and refers to a place where you unpack your animals and put down your burden, and relax. It does not mean a commercial inn, merely a resting place - It is only used by Luke twice, once to describe their lodging when in Bethlehem and once when describing the upper room of the house where the last supper took place (which was clearly not an inn but a small room of a private home, Mark also uses "καταλυμα" (Katalyma) to describe that room). In all other instances Luke uses "πανδοχειον" (pandocheion) which does mean an inn.

An inn was a stop where large caravans could stay overnight, restock and let the pack animals rest, maybe even trade a little, but Bethlehem was a small town ( archaeology and studies estimates no more than 1000 people lived there around the time of Jesus birth) and it had no major trading routes nearby - so in all likeliness there were no commercial inns in the town, because there were no need for one, they would have almost no business unless there was a census - that's not enough to run a business.

Most inns were only used by merchants or caravans, as common people and sole travellers relied on the middle-eastern traditions of hospitality, which required one to welcome and host any travellers that came and needed room, give them food etc. - family or not.

And seeing as Bethlehem was home to Josep's ancestors, he would most likely have had relatives in town who would house him and Mary. Sure they might already be housing other relatives as well, which could explain why there wasn't enough space in the katalyma for Mary to place the child anywhere else.

"and laid him in a manger; because there was no space in the katalyma (resting place/guest room)" - doesn't mean they were turned away at an inn because she was pregnant. It just means that the manger was the only place for her to lay the child.

By the time that the King James bible was made, katalyma might have come to mean a commercial inn and of course it influenced our modern understanding of the word.

But at the time of Jesus birth and Luke's writing, the greek word just meant a resting place or guest room/dinning room as it's used when referring to the last supper.

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I was quoting scripture that says in Genesis that man was made in the image of God. I was also quoting scripture that says Jesus was the "express image" of God which means Jesus could be sinless because in the flesh He was with the same express being as God.

You said earlier: But Jesus was created in the "EXPRESS IMAGE" of God

Can you quote the scripture which says this? I understand that Jehovah's Witnesses believe that God created Jesus, but this is not mainstream Christian doctrine which teaches that Jesus is the only begotten son of god. He is eternally begotten, not created

"And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth" (John 1:14).

"No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, He hath declared Him" (John 1:18).

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life" (John 3:16).

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