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Mistydawn

Fools, or Foolhardy?

37 posts in this topic

Thousands of years ago, the Scriptures written by men for men and believed to be God's Truth, are still believed and lives lived in accordance to these believed truths, shape our lives, our thoughts and our deeds.

I ask, why is it, that God only ever in the whole known history of mankind,has revealed his true presence to a very few?

This question asked of holy people who live their lives for God, will tell you it is becaue we, mere mortals, would be blown out of the water, totally sent ballistically mad, etc at the actual sight of the true living God, that we cannot see him/it/her.

I just wonder what everyone elses thoughts are on this subject.

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Making "the revelation of god" exclusive affords those who claim to have experienced it a degree of privilege and control over those who believe, but have not experienced this "revelation". From the earliest societies, humankind has granted the leaders in society the illusion of having some greater innate "wisdom/intellect/moral authority" than the 'ordinary folks'.

It's nonsense, of course, but it suits us to believe it to be true.

Edited by Leonardo
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can of worms :D

A mere person can not start a world wide religion. it just doesnt work. There are some spiritual people who well deserve their place in history, through the hand of god or through their own efforts. Just remember Siddharta. The life he left behind in his search, his endless stubbornness to find the meaning of life, his fastings etc.

god doesnt just show up, this is what we know and in this case, for a healthy human, it is a nice option to place your trust on a fellow human who claims to have access to spiritual wisdom or understanding. What worst can happen is that you accuse the man of being wrong :)

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Making "the revelation of god" exclusive affords those who claim to have experienced it a degree of privilege and control over those who believe, but have not experienced this "revelation". From the earliest societies, humankind has granted the leaders in society the illusion of having some greater innate "wisdom/intellect/moral authority" than the 'ordinary folks'.

It's nonsense, of course, but it suits us to believe it to be true.

Thanks for your response Leonardo. Can I ask you though, why do you think that the Scriptures, particularly the Bible and Koran have never been added to or expanded over the thousands of years, I mean, has there never been any more Prophets or Seers or God's own Disciples since they were written, not in all these milleniums? I mean, in your opinion and anyone else who reads this, why did the holy workd f the Bible just stop.

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can of worms :D

A mere person can not start a world wide religion. it just doesnt work. There are some spiritual people who well deserve their place in history, through the hand of god or through their own efforts. Just remember Siddharta. The life he left behind in his search, his endless stubbornness to find the meaning of life, his fastings etc.

god doesnt just show up, this is what we know and in this case, for a healthy human, it is a nice option to place your trust on a fellow human who claims to have access to spiritual wisdom or understanding. What worst can happen is that you accuse the man of being wrong :)

Thanks Thyra. I would never want to start a new religion, we have quite enough in the world!!

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It's only "given" to few because people are very keen on others who live what they preach and those who just do it for the wrong reasons.

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You'd have to define "god", really. The deity referred to in the bible, or the Holy Spirit, or divine energy. Sometimes our definitions & preconceptions blind us to the presence of the divine/numinous light/sacred(energy).

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Thanks for your response Leonardo. Can I ask you though, why do you think that the Scriptures, particularly the Bible and Koran have never been added to or expanded over the thousands of years, I mean, has there never been any more Prophets or Seers or God's own Disciples since they were written, not in all these milleniums? I mean, in your opinion and anyone else who reads this, why did the holy workd f the Bible just stop.

So that those who gained control through their "divine experience" could retain it.

It is quite ridiculous to presume some deity - concerned with the whole of humanity - would deliver a message to only a select few and in a certain time-frame. The obvious reason for this claim of "divine privilege", is to allow those with authority gained from this claim to "control the message".

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Well, technically the time frame isn't all that specific, the old testament is thousands of years in story, and the new testament is a drastically different mindset than the old, to the point they barely connect,.

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Well, technically the time frame isn't all that specific, the old testament is thousands of years in story, and the new testament is a drastically different mindset than the old, to the point they barely connect,.

My understanding (admittedly limited) of the NT is that the reason the message seems so tenuously connected is that the message is for a different group of people. The good news given to Paul was for the Gentiles. The OT was for Israel, it's laws and statutes and holy days. Once the messiah returned and was rejected he began reaching out to the Gentile to "fill the wedding party" (my expression). He is the same God, he is sovereign and as such can do as he will. The book (s) that people place their faith in have one thing in common imo, they demonstrate a deep human need to understand the unknown. The only "proof" as such that can be gleaned from any holy text is fulfilled prophecy and even THAT has to be accepted with a degree of faith. Ultimately the whole issue hinges on a person's ability and desire to believe. I have always had such need. Those who feel that belief is foolishness or weakness will not be convinced otherwise short of actually being called by God himself and some would reject even that. I used to argue with such people when I was younger but I have realized that it is pointless and that they have a perfect right to believe as they will - just as I.

It is unfortunate that they are blind to the fact that they are gradually becoming so willful in their rejections that they want to suppress another's right to their own "folly" :)

That was predicted too. I honestly believe that mankind is entering the final act of the human drama of self will and THIS generation will see Christ return. Never before have so many predictions of his return been apparent simultaneously. I long for the day and I pray it will be very soon. NOT because I want to see anyone suffer - but simply because the world we live in is so broken and full of unquenchable hatred and suffering that ONLY his return can mend it.

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The Prophet Joseph Smith.

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My understanding (admittedly limited) of the NT is that the reason the message seems so tenuously connected is that the message is for a different group of people. The good news given to Paul was for the Gentiles. The OT was for Israel, it's laws and statutes and holy days. Once the messiah returned and was rejected he began reaching out to the Gentile to "fill the wedding party" (my expression). He is the same God, he is sovereign and as such can do as he will. The book (s) that people place their faith in have one thing in common imo, they demonstrate a deep human need to understand the unknown. The only "proof" as such that can be gleaned from any holy text is fulfilled prophecy and even THAT has to be accepted with a degree of faith. Ultimately the whole issue hinges on a person's ability and desire to believe. I have always had such need. Those who feel that belief is foolishness or weakness will not be convinced otherwise short of actually being called by God himself and some would reject even that. I used to argue with such people when I was younger but I have realized that it is pointless and that they have a perfect right to believe as they will - just as I.

It is unfortunate that they are blind to the fact that they are gradually becoming so willful in their rejections that they want to suppress another's right to their own "folly" :)

That was predicted too. I honestly believe that mankind is entering the final act of the human drama of self will and THIS generation will see Christ return. Never before have so many predictions of his return been apparent simultaneously. I long for the day and I pray it will be very soon. NOT because I want to see anyone suffer - but simply because the world we live in is so broken and full of unquenchable hatred and suffering that ONLY his return can mend it.

I've always taken it that the book goes something like: Old Testament: how a society is built New Testament: How a society should be run

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can of worms :D

A mere person can not start a world wide religion. it just doesnt work. There are some spiritual people who well deserve their place in history, through the hand of god or through their own efforts. Just remember Siddharta. The life he left behind in his search, his endless stubbornness to find the meaning of life, his fastings etc.

god doesnt just show up, this is what we know and in this case, for a healthy human, it is a nice option to place your trust on a fellow human who claims to have access to spiritual wisdom or understanding. What worst can happen is that you accuse the man of being wrong :)

tell that to L. Ron Hubbard :alien:

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Thousands of years ago, the Scriptures written by men for men and believed to be God's Truth, are still believed and lives lived in accordance to these believed truths, shape our lives, our thoughts and our deeds.

I ask, why is it, that God only ever in the whole known history of mankind,has revealed his true presence to a very few?

This question asked of holy people who live their lives for God, will tell you it is becaue we, mere mortals, would be blown out of the water, totally sent ballistically mad, etc at the actual sight of the true living God, that we cannot see him/it/her.

I just wonder what everyone elses thoughts are on this subject.

Na, that's not the case. Most people really do not want to incorporate god into their lives. They are happy to live in a faith based relationship, which they can construct and control, but not in a real relationship with an independent powerful being who can effect and influence their life in real ways beyond their control. Hence they do not choose to open themselves to that sort of relationship with god. Any one can know god if they truly want to, and are prepared to accept the consequences.

Ps Leonardo; I can't speak for others, but the presence of god in my life doesn't make me want to control people, or any more of a megalomaniac than I was an atheist. Truth is truth, and real truth sets you free from the restrictions of untruths.

But a person can only learn a truth through personal experience, not via another's truth or teaching. I make no special claim of divine privilege and there is nothing special about me. I do not perceive any special authority given to me from my experiences with god, and I do not attempt to control the message I just relate my experiences with god and what he does for me. God makes a direct connection with individual humans No one needs me or any other intermediary to live connected to/with god. Nor do they need religion special rites and rituals etc Only an open heart and mind is needed. Once god enters into a person, that person is totally transformed and empowered, and becomes a new and different human being from their old self.

No one gains control through a divine experience, although others might give/surrender control to a person with such a claim..

Experience with divine is the natural 'birthright" of every human being, not a select few.

There are many paths to the divine.

True contact with the divine alters a person irrevocably for the better and greatly empowers them.

Some one who has experienced the divine is likely to try and introduce others to it, because the experience is so wonderful and empowering for them. But life isn't like that. Such an experience might NOT have the same effect on another person.

Edited by Mr Walker

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Mr Walker, I am confused. I don't understand your response to my question

"I ask, why is it, that God only ever in the whole known history of mankind,has revealed his true presence to a very few?" I understand your take on "personal experience. But that is about it!! sorry!

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well you see back in those days the preists in Israel..

would so shrooms.

I kid you not. They did drugs.

That is why their hats are shaped like mushrooms.

Well you can imagine when doing drugs that make you see hallucinations...

they will make you see gods.. spirits etc.

It's very similar to the Native American Priests how they smoked the peace pipe..

then communicated with spirits from the other side.

What I am saying if you were not smoking or eating the drugs...

then you were not one of the select few.

I believe all religion is made to control and bend people to the will of the leaders.

Choose your own path.. and own thinking.. they call you devil possesed..

and try to burn you at the stake...

they tried to burn me a few times... but i vanished into thin air.

Foolish mortals..

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well you see back in those days the preists in Israel..

would so shrooms.

I kid you not. They did drugs.

That is why their hats are shaped like mushrooms.

Is this similar to the "stoned ape" theory?

they tried to burn me a few times... but i vanished into thin air.

Foolish mortals..

k.

As for the OP's question, I've wondered that myself. Especially why miracles performed by God used to be so grande and awe-inspiring. Pillars of fire, global floods, chariots flying into the sky...

Now the only miracles we get are light traffic during rush hour or the Starbucks kid getting your complex order right.

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Mr Walker, I am confused. I don't understand your response to my question

"I ask, why is it, that God only ever in the whole known history of mankind,has revealed his true presence to a very few?" I understand your take on "personal experience. But that is about it!! sorry!

God is accessible to all. " He" doesn't so much reveal himself as that people have to open their hearts and minds to see him. God is inside us and all about us and part of the interconnected nature of the universe. Sometimes, (as I guess in my case) god physically "forces" his presence on another for his own reasons but still we have to use our own minds and hearts to decide how to act.

I do not believe, from reading history sociology etc that god eveals himself to only a few.

Many people I know also know god. Throughout history many people knew god. But most of us chose to keep quiet about it. Only a few use it, or are driven by it, to become famous. I just use gods power and help to improve my world. As 'Ive said before my wife and I have given away over a million dollars during the 40 years of our marriage to save lives and improve them, but no one really knows about this. except my tax agent and the tax office.

There are millions of others just like us around the world.

So; god is accessible to all.If you chose to open yourself to him, you will become aware of his presence in you and around you. What you chose to do with that knowledge, and the power and abilities it gives to you, will be up to you.

Edited by Mr Walker

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well you see back in those days the preists in Israel..

would so shrooms.

I kid you not. They did drugs.

That is why their hats are shaped like mushrooms.

Well you can imagine when doing drugs that make you see hallucinations...

they will make you see gods.. spirits etc.

It's very similar to the Native American Priests how they smoked the peace pipe..

then communicated with spirits from the other side.

What I am saying if you were not smoking or eating the drugs...

then you were not one of the select few.

I believe all religion is made to control and bend people to the will of the leaders.

Choose your own path.. and own thinking.. they call you devil possesed..

and try to burn you at the stake...

they tried to burn me a few times... but i vanished into thin air.

Foolish mortals..

LOL I love this post, but I must add that I, personally, only trust experiences had while stone cold sober. The only way to be sure of reality and validity is to use your mind and you can't do that if you are out of it. Drugs alter a persons perception of reality. I am only interested in establishing the nature of unaltered reality. Ie natural reality

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well you see back in those days the preists in Israel..

would so shrooms.

I kid you not. They did drugs.

That is why their hats are shaped like mushrooms.

Well you can imagine when doing drugs that make you see hallucinations...

they will make you see gods.. spirits etc.

It's very similar to the Native American Priests how they smoked the peace pipe..

then communicated with spirits from the other side.

What I am saying if you were not smoking or eating the drugs...

then you were not one of the select few.

I believe all religion is made to control and bend people to the will of the leaders.

Choose your own path.. and own thinking.. they call you devil possesed..

and try to burn you at the stake...

they tried to burn me a few times... but i vanished into thin air.

Foolish mortals..

(Trying very hard to keep a straight face)

Can I take it from your response here, that you don't believe an actual sight or conversation with an actual God of all Creation, ever happened? !

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LOL I love this post, but I must add that I, personally, only trust experiences had while stone cold sober. The only way to be sure of reality and validity is to use your mind and you can't do that if you are out of it. Drugs alter a persons perception of reality. I am only interested in establishing the nature of unaltered reality. Ie natural reality

Are you then accepting Mr Walker, that some if not all of the prophets recollections related in scriptions may in fact be drug-induced?

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It's only "given" to few because people are very keen on others who live what they preach and those who just do it for the wrong reasons.

Nah, don't believe that. Over the milleniums thousands of odd critters have declared that God revealed themselves to them.Can we discount ALL of them, no.

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It's only "given" to few because people are very keen on others who live what they preach and those who just do it for the wrong reasons.

I'd agree we are all gullible, just look at the most viewed tv programmes, almost all rubbish.

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"When you speak to God, you're religious. When God speaks to you, you're crazy."

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Are you then accepting Mr Walker, that some if not all of the prophets recollections related in scriptions may in fact be drug-induced?

I don't accept or not accepet that possibility. I don't know and have no evidence either way. I do know that many spiritual ceremonies across many civilisations included the use of drugs.My personal point of view is that our minds are evolved to best perceive the real world without the use of drugs. This means that any perceptions visions etc., gained while under the use of drugs are not as reliable as knowledge gained while awake and stone cold sober. I alos know from personal experience tha t a human can encounter god both in a metaphysical and a physical sense while wide awake and without a trace of any drug in their body

This type of experience is as real as any other in life; without any hazy edges, loss of memory, or glitches in recall, and so is more readily accessible and integrated into the rest of a waking sober life Ie you can trust its reliability and reality as much as you can trust any experience.

"When you speak to God, you're religious. When God speaks to you, you're crazy."

Only a person to whom go has never spoken would say such a silly thing. :innocent:

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