(Pre) Inca Stone cutting Info/Links

[Willie B Herd]

Purpose: to consolidate and gain useful info on the Tiawanaku Complex, ETC.

http://www.michaelsh...one Masonry.pdf (Protzen/Nair)

http://www.michaelsh...tonecutting.pdf

http://www.michaelsh...Inca Design.pdf (S. Nair)

http://peruenroute.w...ow-incas-built/ (Pics of stone-cutting tools)

(Above provided by Swede)

Also for more info, search 'Tiawanaku-A City Lost In Time' (Atlantisbolivia site) for info and several links. And search, "Advances in the Titicaca Basin" (Part 1 available free online [pdf] Parts 2 and 3 available online @ a price...$65 for Part 2!!!)

I've read that only 2 of the sandstone H blocks have the small dbl-recessed 'cross-pattern' on the back. Do all others have the large protruding "Christian" type cross on the back? (Thought to part of the interlocking wall system.)

(Some info online states that all H blocks are identical in size, but they are not. I've seen diagrams of them online, but measurements are so small, they are unreadable.)

How many are there??? I checked some newer pics and the most H blocks shown in any one pic is 6, (in a line or row) another pic showed 4, but it appeared that they are part of the row of 6. Difficult to tell how many in total, the 'experts' keep moving them around to suit their idea(s) of how they were originally positioned.

Some H blocks have what appears to be a dove-tailed mortice in top-front section, (supposedly for a tenon that supports a hinged door) How many have this???

One (that I know of) H Block has a verticle hole, bored thru the front horizontal bar....what is it's diameter?***

In some of the Andesite stones the equally spaced small holes are located in a 6mm x 6mm channel, (some Andesite stones have just the holes)...does anyone know how far apart they are spaced, and/or how deep they are drilled??? (assuming they were drilled).

[Baz Dane]

In some of the Andesite stones the equally spaced small holes are located in a 6mm x 6mm channel, (some Andesite stones have just the holes)...does anyone know how far apart they are spaced, and/or how deep they are drilled??? (assuming they were drilled).

There was a video posted somewhere here recently that answered some of that. I apologize for not remembering the exact spacing, but they did show that the holes were evenly spaced all the way down.

Awesome thread too btw... thanks for the links. I will definitely spend some time checking them out! I checked out some links Swede out up about this subject in the past(same links? I'll find out soon enough) and I found them very informative. They were some long reads too lol But good stuff!

[Willie B Herd]

U R welcome, IF you can find vid, plz post here.

[Baz Dane]

U R welcome, IF you can find vid, plz post here.

Go to the 6:50 mark of the vid... Hopefully it posts... I'm not a pro"surfer" >~

Hope there's some answers in there for ya.

Cheers!

[Baz Dane]

Purpose: to consolidate and gain useful info on the Tiawanaku Complex, ETC.

http://www.michaelsh...one Masonry.pdf (Protzen/Nair)

http://www.michaelsh...tonecutting.pdf

http://www.michaelsh...Inca Design.pdf (S. Nair)

http://peruenroute.w...ow-incas-built/ (Pics of stone-cutting tools)

(Above provided by Swede)

Went to go start reading some of these, but none of the links worked for me.

I'm using FireFox... Are my pc's settings messed up maybe? Do the links work for other people???

It wouldn't surprise me that my pc is messed up lol

[maneckezaog]

They were some long reads too lol But good stuff!

[Willie B Herd]

Another website is Ancient mysteries-sacred sites....some useful info, and access to more links.

[lightly]

Went to go start reading some of these, but none of the links worked for me.

I'm using FireFox... Are my pc's settings messed up maybe? Do the links work for other people???

It wouldn't surprise me that my pc is messed up lol

The links wouldn't open for me either.

[Harte]

Thought I'd add a couple of resources.

Lake Titicaca lake levels through history

Compilation of radiocarbon dates for Tiahuhuanaco, including analysis.

Harte

[Willie B Herd]

The links wouldn't open for me either.

Try using same links posted in "King Tut-one mystery solved" I had better luck there. (Sometimes one won't work, and then will work 5 min later...keep trying, use adobe reader if poss.)

Thanks for the video. He said the holes were 32.5mm or 1 5/16" apart and perfectly spaced. No mention of depth, or diameter of holes.

Also, @ about 6 min, he points to, and mentions erronously 'quarry marks'. This technique of cutting a long groove, (to break the stone along its line) IS used in quarrying, (and bricklayers use same and call it 'scouring") BUT the grooves he pointed out are from an unfinished stone pillaging process. This site has been pillaged for centuries by the locals, and then the Spainards used gupowder to try and destroy it, also wikipedia states, "the military used Puma Punku/Tia for target practice. ETC. ETC.

The front third of this stone is gone, and there are drawings from the mid 1800's of this stone intact on the net....it had a 3 step (inverted) 'stairway' @ each side dn to sunken area, and didn't yet have the marks he pointed out..

Protzen and Nair did a good job thru out. Long but worth reading. For the most part, I agree w/ their write-ups. EXCEPT for the 'test-fit' idea. The larger the stone, the less likely it was test-fit. I'm sure they had some kind of measuring system and devices they used to accurately measure and dbl check ALL rock faces BEFORE setting stones into place, inc. polygonal walls, etc.

(Harte, thanks for the links. )

Edited December 14, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[Willie B Herd]

ON STONE TEST FITS:

Using the Ollantaytambo "Sandwich Stones" as an example of poss lg stone test fits. In setting the first 3 stones, (2 lg and one slim 'center slab' stone) the 3, (or all shown) could have been set up in a line w/ adequate working room to allow for the shaping and dressing process to be done on 4 faces @ once. When they are ready, the 'center slab' could've (fairly easily???) been moved both directions to each lg stone for the test fits. This avoids having to move the larger stones for the test fit. (It's less moving but requires more dressing work than just fitting 2 lg stones together.)

Possibly it is a 'perfect fit' stone to stone, or possibly each stone face was dress to a concave shape, w/ very outer edge of all faces dressed to form a slightly raised flat rim, (maybe 2" wide). This method would've allowed for the practical use of stringlines, and straight edge devices, etc. for measuring, (measure twice, cut once, and install once). Also time/effort was saved in the final dressing proccess by greatly reducing the area of the mating surfaces to be precision finished to achieve the tight joints seen here. (Also, this method would've allowed for some minor verticle/horizontal adjustments in final placement of stones.)

A perfect fit probably would require test fitting, this example seems to be the easiest way possible. Not sure of why they built in this fashion, maybe using the 'center slab' (and/or the concave facing method) w/ extra faces to dress still saved more time overall as opposed to moving larger stones to test fit, and final fit. Maybe they slid the 'center slab' stones in from the front.

Edited December 15, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[Willie B Herd]

TEST FIT ON POLYGONAL WALLS

I had said the bigger the stone, the less likely it was test fit. Some of the larger stones here have 3 or more dressed faces, and as big and awkward looking as they are, (like the upper right stone) test fitting seems very unlikely. Protzen figured stones were placed by first sliding them up a dirt ramp (to level needed) @ front of the wall, then placed in wall from there. (Also he found evidence that more of the dressing work was done on the tops of the stones already placed in wall.)

Poss they were dressed as needed @ top of ramp position, and this would make for easier measuring, fine finishing, etc. Measure twice, cut once, install once!!!

Edited December 16, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[Willie B Herd]

Here's an example of a polygonal wall @ Saqsaywaman. Regardless of what those A ppl tell you, the lg stone in the center occured naturally @ this spot, it was NOT moved, and they added stones to it.

Highly unlikely these stones were test-fit even once.

Edited December 18, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[Willie B Herd]

At the temple of the condor we find that enormous slabs of andesite rock that were quarried from what is known as “The Wall of Living Rock.” Here we find these blocks that were removed in such a precision that we hardly find scratches, the material from where the slabs were removed is andesite and that material is really strong and hard to “cut”, you would need something that is stronger than andesite to accomplish this.

In my opinion another interesting fact is that these slabs were so precisely removed that we do not find broken edges or any other signs of extreme force applied that could have caused the material to “break” or deform. The corners from where they were removed are not sharp but are almost perfectly round and until today someone has yet to explain how all of this was possible. Another interesting find lay on the bottom from where these rocks were cut out of, we find these strange but precise crisscross pattern. The pattern that we see appears to be a trace left by some kind of machinery that was left behind at the time these slabs were being removed, possibly these marks could have been created by some kind of laser or saw machine, so yes this could be one of the most clear pieces of evidence that the ancients did in fact use some sort of advanced technology at the time they were cutting, removing and shaping these incredible rocks. “The rock surface looks rough but when you touch it it feels as smooth as a bathroom mirror, which means some type of vitrification process was used. At the bottom of where this alcove was cut out, we can see a crisscross pattern, in my opinion, they are actually saw marks, to me, this pattern is irrefutable proof for ancient machining.” - Giorgio A. Tsoukalos- See more at: http://www.ancient-c...h.dDJAkvJV.dpuf

IMO, these diagonal cuts were made intentionally by the Pre Inca ppl w/ the intent of using WATER in the stone cutting process (only for the bottom cut of the stone removed from here). IF all sides and the top of the stone were freed from quarry, (using standard methods of the period would account for the rounded edges mentioned) and the channels pre-cut, a 'wire-saw' could've then been used for the horizontal bottom cut.

IF channels were cut perpendicular to the front stone face, they would've been nearly ineffective to flush out cut material. Being diagonal, they would've been much more effective in flushing process....a wire could've been wrapped around stone, tensioned/guided by, and turned on pullys just above channels, w/ constant flow of water directed thru channels to aid in the cutting process.

NOT vitrification, erosion....over 1,000 yrs. of rain, wind, etc. AT LEAST Georgio noticed the 'saw-marks'...maybe he needs glasses.

Ancient machining doesn't automatically mean ancient :alien:

Edited December 18, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[Willie B Herd]

Here's an example from Machu Picchu....the lg stones were probably naturally occurring, and they shaped and then stacked upon them. The upper stones are probably still to large to test fit.

[Willie B Herd]

Again, quality of stone work does not determine age.

They did a nice job on the R wall, fairly uniform stone sizes, laid in basically level courses, (rows) and tight joints thru-out.

The sizes of these stones may allow for test fitting....but how many times would you want to test fit a 200 lb stone in a day??? Or a 100 lb stone??? (My answer is zero!)

Edited December 19, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[Willie B Herd]

SUMMARY

The Pre Inca's stone working operation was well-planned and well-organized. They chose and quarried specific stones to be used in specific locations in a given construction site. They used the "scouring" technique to split stones to a predetermined size in the quarry. Some scouring lines were simply pounded out w/ hammer stones, and some were dbl grooves made by abrasion and then the center ridge was pounded/chiseled out. Also, on some stones, wedge-shaped holes were chipped out in a line w/ copper bars and the holes were filled w/ wood. Then the wood was soaked in water causing the wood to expand splitting the stone.

The quarries had a system of ramps used to remove the stones. There are some stones in the quarry that were partially dressed and appear ready to be moved, but they have no ramp leading directly to them. Pumice was brought in from other locations and used in the final dressing process

On building sites the partially dressed stones were dragged up dirt ramps, dressed to fit and then placed in a wall, etc, and generally, most of the on-site dressing was done on stones already in place. (There is visual evidence of a stone-lined dirt ramp @ Ollantaytambo. A large stone, [12'X4'X4' approx.] is lying on its side upon a stone-lined ramp ready to be put into place.)

Protzen asserts that the wedge-shaped "keystone" was the last stone placed in the course of a wall. The wedge is tapered down towards the back, supporting his idea that all stones were placed from the front of the wall. Also, Protzen found some stones that have long thin grooves made by abrasion, supporting the possible use of wire saws by the Pre Incas.

WANT EVIDENCE??? READ THE LINKS POSTED @ TOP!

[lilthor]

A fairly comprehensive theory. All that remains is to back it up scientifically with a proof-of-concept demonstration showing a (partial) wall of interlocking blocks being produced using those methods described. This should be fairly easy since, as we are constantly reminded, the actual tools used to build the original structures are laying all about these places just waiting to be used again. It's simply a matter of picking them up and getting to work...has anyone suggested this yet?

Looking very forward to the video that actually demonstrates how we can reproduce those interlocking blocks using the theorized methods and tools.

Maybe in 2014...

[Willie B Herd]

A fairly comprehensive theory. All that remains is to back it up scientifically with a proof-of-concept demonstration showing a (partial) wall of interlocking blocks being produced using those methods described. This should be fairly easy since, as we are constantly reminded, the actual tools used to build the original structures are laying all about these places just waiting to be used again. It's simply a matter of picking them up and getting to work...has anyone suggested this yet?

Looking very forward to the video that actually demonstrates how we can reproduce those interlocking blocks using the theorized methods and tools.

Maybe in 2014...

Protzen did extensive field tests to back up his work. Not sure if he actually has built a wall, but most likely he did, or at least he would be the first one to try. (May be something on Youtube.) I see no reason why a hard working group of ppl couldn't accomplish this.

Check the 4th link @ top for pics of tools they used.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[lilthor]

Protzen did extensive field tests to back up his work. Not sure if he actually has built a wall, but most likely he did, or at least he would be the first one to try. (May be something on Youtube.) I see no reason why a hard working group of ppl couldn't accomplish this.

Protzen did try...much to his credit. The result, unfortunately, was an abortive attempt to dress a single side of a rather small boulder that doesn't look anything like what we see in the ancient walls. Protzen was left with nothing but his (pounder) in his hands and an unproven theory.

I completely agree that a group of hard-working people should be able to prove...or, equally as important, disprove Protzen's theory. I suspect it's the looming spectre of the latter which prevents serious researchers from following through.

[Willie B Herd]

Not to mention all the hard work.....and the time factor as well.

I'm willing to try if you are, like Wilie Nelson said, 'If you got the money, I got the time..."

[Harte]

Dude, that was Hank Williams.

Harte

[lilthor]

"If you got a number, I got a light"

Willie said that

[Willie B Herd]

Dude, that was Hank Williams.

Harte

Maybe Hank wrote it, but I'm dam sure Willie sang it.....and so did half of the country singers on this planet.

Edited December 30, 2013 by Willie B Herd

[jmccr8]

Hi Willie B Herd,

I hope you don't mind me adding this link here as it isn't about pre-Incan stone cutting and I didn't feel like starting a new thread for one post,the link is about the oldest stone wall found

.23,000 year old stone wall found at entrance to cave in Greece

jmccr8