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Rolci

The Medicineless hospitals of China

54 posts in this topic

I felt I had to start this topic as I could not find a single topic on this on the whole of UM. I was actually appalled when google came up with 0 hits for the word "medicinless" for this website. Sorry if this has already been discussed here, I could find no reference, but even if it has, let's do it again!

This is supposed to be huge yet no media coverage that I'm aware of. Basically, there are several so-called medicineless hospitals in China where healing takes place using Chi, exercises, positive affirmation, and most importantly they do not "just" heal patients with all sorts of diseases including incurable tumours of cancer but they actually teach them how to heal themselves. Here is an outline of the whole "movement" with some basic info:

http://www.chilel.com/WhatIsChilelQigong/hospital.htm

I first heard of these hospitals in a workshop by Gregg Braden where he presented a video footage where they use ultrasound imaging to show the tumour of a cancer patient disappearing in a matter of 3 minutes. We are not talking about a time lapse video! I think you can view the whole workshop here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=VuW7e1yCVvc#t=4800

If I remember correctly this was filmed in the largest such hospital in China where they do not allow any filming, and Gregg was told he was the first and I believe since then still the only person they allowed to take a footage for his documentary, I think he mentions in his presentation why, but not sure.

I must voice my opinion here that I like to take a cautious approach to presenters of esoteric, conspiracy, or other kinds of "weird" material, like David Icke, David Wilcock, Graham Hancock and the rest. But I must admit, I find the material Gregg Braden presents to be, besides empowering and thought-provoking, also well-researched and thorough, I like his provocative and, I believe, original ideas. Also I fing him to be genuine and honest. Of course I could be wrong, but all I can give here is my opinion, the way I see him and his work. He has many great works like The Isaiah Effect and The Lost Mode of Prayer and others, but there is quite a lot of overlapping between them. If anyone is interested in what he has to say, I would recommend Speaking the Lost Language of God, an 8-hour presentation that, well, pretty much has it all in one pack. If you can't get hold of it (I'd rather not offer ideas here on how to! :D), then you can just watch The Lost Mode of Prayer or a few of his other presentations and workshops on youtube.

So anyway, getting back to the main topic, medicinless hospitals in China and now more and more in America and around the world. I found an interview with a healing practitioner who works in the US:

What do you guys think?

While we're on this topic, I'd like to mention one more thing rather than start a whole new topic just for this. I checked a few weeks ago and couldn't find anything here on UM about this either, so I might as well add this here.

It's about healing by the laying on of hands (LOOH). I'm not talking about psychic healing (PH) at all. Although they could be related, for all I know PH, LOOH and Chi healing could be different forms/manifestations of the same thing, working on the same underlying principle, like "you you create your own reality", or the law of attraction as explained in The Secret (video and book) by Rhonda Byrne.

Anyway, it's called Craniosacral Therapy (CT), and while there is an entry about this on wikipedia, it doesn't sound like it's a recognized form of healing in the west, at least not in many countries yet, surely the US, UK and such countries are "way behind", however, it is a completely normal and accepted practice in some western-european countries like Austria. For example, there is a fascinating BBC documentary about The Girl Who Never Ate, in which this british girl, whom the NHS could not heal, is taken by her family (having no other choice left) to this clinic in Austria that has a 100% (!) success rate and where CT is practised routinely (wonder why? maybe... it works?). The thing is, they've never treated children of this girl's age (she was 7 at the time), so she is a real challenge. If you want to know what happened, watch the whole documentary:

The part about the physiotherapist that uses CT starts at 16:20 Almost makes me cry just watching!

This Chi is probably the thing that breatharians use as well. Funny how there are almost no documentaries about Breatharianism. The best one I've seen so far is In the Beginning There Was Light, but it's mostly in german, and finding English subtitles was quite a bit of a challenge even for me, but was worth it. It tells the stories of many such people, many of whom go voluntarily to different medical institutes (MI) to be observed and examined to prove that they're not fakers, but I especially love the story of this german guy that goes to one such MI in Switzerland to be checked and allows them to do tests on him for weeks on the condition that they will publish all the results, and of course when they're done they never do, and he goes to another one is Austria and the same thing happens. WTF??

So what do you guys think? What's going on here? What is it that big pharma doesn't want us to know? It isn't hard to see, imagine the entire population of the Earth being able to heal themselves, not requiring food from supermarkets and using zero point free energy devices for their households. The PTB would be in deep cr@p in no time. Spiritual awakening for humanity is not exactly their agenda. Disempowerment through cultural conditioning, indoctrination ("education"), dumbing down (GM food and additives) and distraction ("entertainment") however sure is! Just my opinion, this last paragraph, but I want to hear (or read) yours!

Edited by Rolci
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So what do you guys think? What's going on here?

I think people who put faith in stuff like this often end up either dead, or they kill someone like thier kids with such beliefs.

Ever hear of the semi famous Kim Tinkam from the Oprah Show? She claimed positive thinking got rid of her cancer.

The woman to whom I refer is named Kim Tinkham, who was diagnosed with breast cancer over three and a half years ago. Regular readers may recall that Kim Tinkham achieved fame not long after that when she was featured on The Oprah Winfrey Show in an episode about The Secret, an episode I discussed posts entitled The Oprah-fication of Medicine and On the nature of “alternative” medicine cancer cure testimonials.

It was announced on the Facebook page Caring for Kim that the subject of this post, Kim Tinkham, passed away on December 7, 2010 in the late afternoon. Although it was not revealed what kind of cancer she died of, Tinkham almost certainly died from metastatic breast cancer. Quackery appears to have claimed another victim.)

Steve Jobs? You must know that name.

Most pancreatic cancers are aggressive and always terminal, but Steve was lucky (if you can call it that) and had a rare form called an islet cell neuroendocrine tumor, which is actually quite treatable with excellent survival rates — if caught soon enough. The median survival is about a decade, but it depends on how soon it’s removed surgically. Steve caught his very early, and should have expected to survive much longer than a decade. Unfortunately Steve relied on a diet instead of early surgery. There is no evidence that diet has any effect on islet cell carcinoma. As he dieted for nine months, the tumor progressed, and took him from the high end to the low end of the survival rate.

Why did he do this? Well, outsiders like us can’t know; but many who avoid medical treatment in favor of unproven alternatives do so because they’ve been given bad information, without the tools or expertise to discriminate good from bad. Steve was exposed to such bad information, as are we all.

Eventually it became clear to all involved that his alternative therapy wasn’t working, and from then on, by all accounts, Steve aggressively threw money at the best that medical science could offer. But it was too late. He had a Whipple procedure. He had a liver transplant. And then he died, all too young.

Or, any of the following:

Lady Sally Baldwin

Oxford, England

Died (untreated breast cancer)

1998

She travelled to Tijuana, Mexico to seek an alternative treatment for her breast cancer. She continued the "Gerson therapy" at home, but died two years later.

Debbie Benson

Age: 55

Fort Bragg, California

Died (cancer)

July 15, 1997

She had a deep distrust of traditional medicine, so she sought out naturopaths and other alternative practitioners for her breast cancer. It raged out of control and she died

Marcia Bergeron

Age: 57

Quadra Island, British Columbia, Canada

Died (poisoning)

December 26, 2006

She distrusted conventional medicine, so she decided to self-medicate using pills purchased from a Canadian online pharmacy. What she didn't know was the pharmacy was not actually Canadian and the pills were tainted with toxic heavy metals.

JoAnn Burggraf

Age: 58

Tulsa, Oklahoma

Died (undiagnosed leukemia)

October 2005

Energy medicine, Quack medical device, (EPFX)

Antonio Campos

Age: 5 months

Los Angeles, California

Died (untreated cancer)

Antonio's mother looked for an alternative to the painful chemotherapy treatments he needed for cancer. She found a clinic using a energy medicine machine. Antonio died anyway.

I could go on for pages and pages. It is one thing to put up a cheap website and make wild claims, it is another altogether to prove a 100% success rate. Sorry, but I just do not believe Western Medicine would overlook treatments with a 100% success rate. They would indeed be all over it. Not all of it is corrupt. I don't get people who do not immunise their children either.

Similar with religious beliefs, that has cost too many lives as well.

Gregg Braden?????

“Now, perhaps more than any other time in human history, the choice of outcome is ours. Once we have read the words, recognized the possibilities, and exposed ourselves to new ideas, we cannot return to the innocence of the moment before. In the presence of what we have seen, we must make sense of our experience. We may disregard what we have been shown, citing lack of proof or too little data, or we may allow ourselves to embrace the opportunity of a new way. The moment that we reconcile each new possibility is the moment where the magic begins; it is the moment of choice.”

The ISAIAH EFFECT, page 28, Gregg Braden

No supporting data, but hey, don't worry about that?

No thanks.

Edited by psyche101

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The first website I linked clearly points out that these hospitals place no importance on diet. So what were you trying to prove with Jobbs and his diet? I never said diet is the key.

As for those that alternative medicine can't heal, funny how the few make the headlines in corporate media while (possibly tens of) thousands who are healed never get reported, the ONLY way knowledge spreads is by word of mouth.

You forgot to comment on CT.

Gregg Braden? Nice cherrypicking again, dunno how you do it, or even why you do it. as a quick find for sure. Do you have a txt file with discrediting quotes for everyone?

No supporting data? He's presented TONS. Did you actually watch the video? And even if there were none. If western "medicine" has given up on someone and the only hope left is alternative, what do you expect them to do? Wait for supporting data?

And we've already discussed the importance of the medium in a different topic but let me re-iterate.

Here we discuss IDEAS. And when anyone offers an idea for discussion, it's 99.9% of the time not your idea. We assimilate information as we grow older and older. After a while you don't even remember where you heard a particular piece of info, it becomes a book on a shelf in your mental library. If you, at any point, offer a thought for discussion, it is IRRELEVANT where you acquired that thought or where the building block that make it up originate from. If I want to discuss the reproduction of flowers, it doesn't matter who was the first in history to analyse it and write a book about it letting everyone else know, and what kind of a person it was. What counts for a discussion is the IDEA. Now sometimes and idea you offer for discussion originates from a source you read recently, so you happen to know whose idea to discuss it. The mere fact of remembrance does not make the person you heard it from more relevant to the discussion. You could've heard the same idea from ANYONE ELSE, a friend or anyone. What matters is this: You have become aware of an idea, a thought or a line of reasoning that intrigues you, and you wish to present it for discussion to see where it goes. So you go on a discussion board where stuff gets discussed. But there seems to be an invisible rule you guys are creating: In the event that the thought I want to discuss happens to entered my field of interests recently enough that I still remember where it came from, and I dare present the ideas with original quotations (for a clearer understanding of the idea) with a reference to the person that happened to be medium through which this idea reached me, than potential discussers feel compelled to analyse the referred source person to bits, and if anyone finds anything objectionable in their personality, for them that automatically renders any and all ideas that he ever presented unworthy for discussion. You must realize, that person is a medium. The same thoughts exist independently in many other thinkers.

So even though you managed to find a sentence from him you don't agree with, or even if you find more, that doesn't mean that he has no useful information. ALL of his ideas can't be useless. If you listen to 100 of his ideas and only find one that is useful, as long as it's useful it was worth it because it made a difference in your life, something you can implement or practice. Surely time better spent than watching a soap opera or some reality show. Just my opinion. I personally find many of his thoughts empowering.

And I prefer quotes like these, although they may not be inspiring to everyone:

The healing comes from allowing us to feel whatever it is that the world gives to us to feel and to acknowledge that feeling. Allow the feeling to unfold without judging what it means or being afraid of how it may affect something else in the world.

The feelings that we call negative are simply indications that something has crossed our path that is now inviting us to examine this experience. Why do I feel this way? What is it saying to me? They become a problem only when we ignore them – when feelings go unresolved or unreconciled.

When feelings are unresolved and we bury them or mask our hurt or our frustration or our anger or our jealously or our rage, and we do that month after month, year after year, and that feeling is buried inside of us looking for an expression – that’s where we begin to have the problems.

So, the question is: when we are experiencing judgement and ego, what is that saying to us really?

The first thing it is telling us is that we are not in our heart because the heart has no judgement. And, the heart has no ego. When we are experiencing those qualities, it is coming from our mind; it’s coming from our inner child; it’s coming from our fear, from our families, from our perceptions, our conditioning. It’s not coming from our heart.

So, the goal of many ancient traditions (early Christian, early Jewish, early Buddhist, Native American, and now the scientific principles today) is to find a way to view the experiences of life (what happens in the world around us, our relationships, our finances, and our health) through the single eye of the heart – the eye that says “yes, this is what has happened” without saying what has happened is good or bad, or right or wrong.

It is the marriage of the mind and the heart that give us the power to create, and the way they say to transcend, to get through the judgement that we find ourselves in. It sounds strange at first. But, what they invite us to do is this: when something hurts us in life, when something crosses our path that causes us pain, our first reaction is to move away from it and say “I don’t want that.” That is when the judgement comes in.

If we can embrace the experiences when someone or an experience hurts us in life, not that we like the experience or want to have it again, but the ancients say that we should bless the experience. This sounds very strange – to bless the things that hurt you. But, here’s what happens. When we begin to bless the things that cause us the pain, the blessing is simply the acknowledgement. It is the blessing that relieves the charge of judgement for just a moment. That’s all we need, because for just a moment when the charge is relieved, we can replace the hurt with something else. And the ancients say that something else is what we call beauty.

and once he had a conversation with someone, a monk I guess, in Tibet that went something like this:

"-When we see your prayers, when we watch you chant and tone, and we see your oms, and you hold your mudras and your mantras and the bells and the bowls and the gongs and the incense, for twelve and eighteen hours a day in those cold monasteries, when we see that happening on the outside, what happens to you on the inside?

-You have never seen our prayers. A prayer cannot be seen. A prayer has no outward expression. What you have seen is what we do in our culture to create the feeling in our bodies. And the feeling is the prayer. The feeling has no outward expression. We can be having a feeling when we walk down the mountain, when we sing our songs, when we eat together in our communal dining rooms. We can be in prayer because the prayer is a feeling.

-If this prayer is so powerful then why didn’t it last?

-Because this experience in our heart was viewed by the scientists as something you do for a moment in time. This experience of the heart is not something that we do, it is something that we become. It is something that we live in our lives. Life becomes the prayer. Every moment of every day is the prayer. The prayer is based in a feeling and we can have a feeling all of the time - we can have a feeling in our cars while driving on the highway; we can have a feeling in the office, in the school, with our families, alone in the park. It’s not something that we do in a moment. It’s a way of living. It’s a way of life. It’s something that we become. And, when we do that the prayer never ends."

Edited by Rolci
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Platitudes don't save lives.

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I was actually appalled when google came up with 0 hits for the word "medicinless" for this website.

Actually, if you spell it "medicineless", Google gives you 134,000 results, while "medicinless" gives you 606. (Well, now, 607 results.)

Edited by Likely Guy
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The first website I linked clearly points out that these hospitals place no importance on diet. So what were you trying to prove with Jobbs and his diet? I never said diet is the key.

Did you not notice I offered several alternative methods that resulted in death, and mentioned religion? This is not a new concept, it is very old, the claim might be new to this part of the world, and if it was so successful, I just cannot see it being a secret in this day and age. Practises that rely on verbal claims are to be considered with a very skeptical eye. You say there is 100% success rate. Where is the proof of this? If is true, why can't we see confirmation? A verbal is just not good enough.

Mate, that link says that people are healed by belief and the power of the Universe! Good God man, do you really take that superseded superstition as anything more than antiquated ramblings?

ChiLel consists of four parts...

Strong belief (Shan Shin): a belief that chi or life energy, can heal all ailments, including one's own. Students build belief by listening to testimonials of recovered patients and learning about chi and its healing effects.

Group Healing (Chu Chong): before a group of students begins ChiLel, the teacher verbally synchronizes the thinking of the group to obtain chi from the universe and bring it down into a healing energy field, shrouding everyone including the teacher himself or herself. The healing effect is enhanced because the group is acting as one.

Chi Healing (Fa Chi): Facilitating chi healing by teachers teachers bring healing energy from the universe to each individual to facilitate healing.

Practice (Lan Gong): Students learn easy-to-follow ChiLel movements and practice them over and over again. The methods, parts of Zhineng qigong, are called:

Lift Chi Up and Pour Chi Down Method.

Three Centers Merge Standing Method.

Chisus mate, a freaking healing energy field? Fair go.

As for those that alternative medicine can't heal, funny how the few make the headlines in corporate media while (possibly tens of) thousands who are healed never get reported, the ONLY way knowledge spreads is by word of mouth.

Are you seriously suggesting media is suppressing healing claims so that people won't know about them?

No offence mate, you make thought provoking posts at time, but that comment does not come under that category if I read it right. If it is how I suggested, that is childish and silly.

This is NOT word of mouth it is shameless internet promotion.

You forgot to comment on CT.

No I didn't just do not know enough to comment, and know when I reach my depth. As far as I know, Craniosacral therapy can relieve tension, and that's is the limit of its beneficial benefits, I don't think that is what your method is referring to though. Personally, I know of a far more satisfying and effective method to relieve tension.

Gregg Braden? Nice cherrypicking again, dunno how you do it, or even why you do it. as a quick find for sure. Do you have a txt file with discrediting quotes for everyone? We've already discussed the importance of the medium in a different topic but let me re-iterate.

Dunno how I do it? Maybe these guys are not all that you think they are cracked up to be, and some people just might have wondered this path before you, but come away with a very different perspective. Just maybe.... they are not as hidden, mysterious and compelling as the websites make out.

That is funny though, text file? I am the Anti-Rolci!! LOL.

YES Muahahahahahahahahaha I am asking the Universe to tune into your brain and provide me with information 5 minutes before you think of it!! Just give up now, the Universe is on my side!!

Mua ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha

Note the breaks in that last evil laugh. It makes it work. So much more evil now. That's what I learned in Skeptic school.

:D

Here we discuss IDEAS. And when anyone offers an idea for discussion, it's 99.9% of the time not your idea. We assimilate information as we grow older and older. After a while you don't even remember where you heard a particular piece of info, it becomes a book on a shelf in your mental library. If you, at any point, offer a thought for discussion, it is IRRELEVANT where you acquired that thought or where the building block that make it up originate from. If I want to discuss the reproduction of flowers, it doesn't matter who was the first in history to analyse it and write a book about it letting everyone else know, and what kind of a person it was. What counts for a discussion is the IDEA. Now sometimes and idea you offer for discussion originates from a source you read recently, so you happen to know whose idea to discuss it. The mere fact of remembrance does not make the person you heard it from more relevant to the discussion. You could've heard the same idea from ANYONE ELSE, a friend or anyone. What matters is this: You have become aware of an idea, a thought or a line of reasoning that intrigues you, and you wish to present it for discussion to see where it goes. So you go on a discussion board where stuff gets discussed. But there seems to be an invisible rule you guys are creating: In the event that the thought I want to discuss happens to entered my field of interests recently enough that I still remember where it came from, and I dare present the ideas with original quotations (for a clearer understanding of the idea) with a reference to the person that happened to be medium through which this idea reached me, than potential discussers feel compelled to analyse the referred source person to bits, and if anyone finds anything objectionable in their personality, for them that automatically renders any and all ideas that he ever presented unworthy for discussion. You must realize, that person is a medium. The same thoughts exist independently in many other thinkers.

Yes, got that the first time round. Awesome, take a pat on the back.

This is the sort of idea that I reckon kills people. I did say that straight up.

I thought you were bewildered at me giving you all those options with those deaths as a direct result of alternative medicines? I take it you get "the idea" now?

So even though you managed to find a sentence from him you don't agree with, or even if you find more, that doesn't mean that he has no useful information. ALL of his ideas can't be useless. If you listen to 100 of his ideas and only find one that is useful, as long as it's useful it was worth it because it made a difference in your life, something you can implement or practice. Surely time better spent than watching a soap opera or some reality show. Just my opinion. I personally find many of his thoughts empowering.

Why can't all his ideas be useless? Did you not see what he wrote? Do not be put of by no, or bad data??? WTF?

Why bother with someone who is wrong 99% of the time? Being right once in a hundred times is a crock Rolci, I know personally from experience that Western Medicine works 99% of the time. That seems far better odds to me, I cannot help wondering if it isn't broken, why fix it? What Braden says is dishonest. No two ways about it, any honest person will insist you look at data, and repeat a process as many times as one is asked to.

And I prefer quotes like these, although they may not be inspiring to everyone:

The healing comes from allowing us to feel whatever it is that the world gives to us to feel and to acknowledge that feeling. Allow the feeling to unfold without judging what it means or being afraid of how it may affect something else in the world.

The feelings that we call negative are simply indications that something has crossed our path that is now inviting us to examine this experience. Why do I feel this way? What is it saying to me? They become a problem only when we ignore them – when feelings go unresolved or unreconciled.

When feelings are unresolved and we bury them or mask our hurt or our frustration or our anger or our jealously or our rage, and we do that month after month, year after year, and that feeling is buried inside of us looking for an expression – that’s where we begin to have the problems.

Do you seek people like this out just for inspirational sayings? I honestly hope not.

You know, I just try to learn a bit more about the world each day, and hope I can help someone out. You might be surprised how far that gets you.

So, the question is: when we are experiencing judgement and ego, what is that saying to us really?

The first thing it is telling us is that we are not in our heart because the heart has no judgement. And, the heart has no ego. When we are experiencing those qualities, it is coming from our mind; it’s coming from our inner child; it’s coming from our fear, from our families, from our perceptions, our conditioning. It’s not coming from our heart.

I think it's self preservation.

Talk of "from the heart" sounds like mumbo jumbo to me, The Heart is a muscle, the romantic notions we attribute to it are superfluous to existence. As such, whenever anyone starts rambling on like this, I reckon they are not trying to tell me how to listen to my heart, they are trying to get into my head.

Seriously, nobody wants to go there. It's a whirling dervish. Try thinking early solar system. There you go an analogy :D I am philosophical today!

So, the goal of many ancient traditions (early Christian, early Jewish, early Buddhist, Native American, and now the scientific principles today) is to find a way to view the experiences of life (what happens in the world around us, our relationships, our finances, and our health) through the single eye of the heart – the eye that says “yes, this is what has happened” without saying what has happened is good or bad, or right or wrong.

I think they were a way to help initiate control civility industry and community.

But nothing to say I am right I suppose.

One is always ones own worst critic, does that not indicate the heart must be judgmental to an extent?

It is the marriage of the mind and the heart that give us the power to create, and the way they say to transcend, to get through the judgement that we find ourselves in. It sounds strange at first. But, what they invite us to do is this: when something hurts us in life, when something crosses our path that causes us pain, our first reaction is to move away from it and say “I don’t want that.” That is when the judgement comes in.

Hang on create what? That is a very ambiguous claim. We can create ideas, we cannot create physical things. Some think physical things can be provided by "The Universe". Just, no.

My first reaction to something that hurts me is not to avoid, but view with caution. I am more of the thinking that we are individual in this respect. Whilst I agree with "I don't want that again" People might go different ways about making that happen.

If we can embrace the experiences when someone or an experience hurts us in life, not that we like the experience or want to have it again, but the ancients say that we should bless the experience. This sounds very strange – to bless the things that hurt you. But, here’s what happens. When we begin to bless the things that cause us the pain, the blessing is simply the acknowledgement. It is the blessing that relieves the charge of judgement for just a moment. That’s all we need, because for just a moment when the charge is relieved, we can replace the hurt with something else. And the ancients say that something else is what we call beauty.

Or "What does not kill you makes you stronger" Perhaps?

and once he had a conversation with someone, a monk I guess, in Tibet that went something like this:

"-When we see your prayers, when we watch you chant and tone, and we see your oms, and you hold your mudras and your mantras and the bells and the bowls and the gongs and the incense, for twelve and eighteen hours a day in those cold monasteries, when we see that happening on the outside, what happens to you on the inside?

-You have never seen our prayers. A prayer cannot be seen. A prayer has no outward expression. What you have seen is what we do in our culture to create the feeling in our bodies. And the feeling is the prayer. The feeling has no outward expression. We can be having a feeling when we walk down the mountain, when we sing our songs, when we eat together in our communal dining rooms. We can be in prayer because the prayer is a feeling.

-If this prayer is so powerful then why didn’t it last?

Because this experience in our heart was viewed by the scientists as something you do for a moment in time. This experience of the heart is not something that we do, it is something that we become. It is something that we live in our lives. Life becomes the prayer. Every moment of every day is the prayer. The prayer is based in a feeling and we can have a feeling all of the time - we can have a feeling in our cars while driving on the highway; we can have a feeling in the office, in the school, with our families, alone in the park. It’s not something that we do in a moment. It’s a way of living. It’s a way of life. It’s something that we become. And, when we do that the prayer never ends."

Now see, I do find that interesting, because that is what I call a person's spirit. Not a transparent version of a person, but the culmination of generations of culture mixed with personal experience that choices mould a character into. What you are, what people see, how you act. I do not believe there is more than what we make of ourselves, and I do not believe that when we die we continue on. I think we are responsible for ourselves, and we have no kindly greater power watching over us, it's every man for himself, in life and death. You snooze, you lose. All we leave are memories, and in that, we become spiritual in the sense that our existence carries on without a body.

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Actually, if you spell it "medicineless", Google gives you 134,000 results.

Does too!!

:rofl:

That is funny.

:tu:

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China? Next you'll be advocating the use of tiger penises.

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China? Next you'll be advocating the use of tiger penises.

Medicinal use I hope!!!!!!

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Interesting.

Neat topic :D

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Alternative medicine has its place, but should never be replace solid modern medicine.

The mind certainly can heal the body. There are documented cases of people with actual chronic disease like diabetes that have severe muktiple personality disorders. One personality actually has diabetes while the other does not, high blod pressure and even different heart rates. This tells us that the mind can indeed cure some things almost instantaneously. But it's not understood how yet. Modern medicine and safe alternatives should always Persued together.

http://www.nytimes.com/1985/05/21/science/new-focus-on-multiple-personality.html

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Actually, if you spell it "medicineless", Google gives you 134,000 results

*Spelling edited in title*

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Its no secret to us here in the Far East ... we practice it all the time ... does it cure everyone ? No ... same as medicine everywhere ... its not a miracle cure all ... no such thing as yet exist ...

Holistic ... prevention ... that's the key ... no need for cures is the principle factor ... and a cure does not means it cures for eternity ... relapses are common ... especially when factors such as patients reverting back to previous habits that complicate the recovery process.

Acupuncture used during heart surgery

Shanhai Renji Hospital yesterday announced the nation's first successful heart by-pass surgery via acupuncture and a small amount of intravenous medication as an anesthetic.

The method shortens the recovery time, limits postoperative complications and it's also less expensive. Still, medical experts said not all such patients are suitable for the procedure.

During the surgery on December 4, doctors put six acupuncture needles in the chest and wrist of a 78-year-old patient with myocardial infarction to perform electro-acupuncture as an anesthetic. A small amount of intravenous medication was given to maintain the effects of the anesthetic.

Generally, this type of surgery uses a big dose of anesthesia and a respirator. With the acupuncture method, the patient doesn't need a respirator. A laryngeal mask was used instead.

"The patient was sleeping lightly, which means the doctor can wake the patient during surgery for communication if necessary," said Huang Huan, a Renji official. "Without a general anesthetic and respirator, the patient is more relaxed during surgery. He sat up within hours after surgery and left the intensive care unit under his own power the next day. A traditional anesthetic could have kept him in the ICU for two or three days."

According to experts, heart surgery with acupuncture anesthesia is difficult and doctors need to be highly skilled to attempt the procedure.

(Shanghai Daily December 26, 2007)

CAN ACUPUNCTURE BE USED FOR ANESTHESIA DURING SURGERY?

Yes, acupuncture is very effective when used for anesthesia during surgery. By stimulating certain acupuncture points during surgery, an absence of pain is produced and the patient is able to undergo an operation while remaining fully conscious. Acupuncture anesthesia was created in the 1950's in China and continues to be used there today during most major surgeries. It is widely used in China for such complex operations as brain, heart, and abdominal surgery. It is popular in China because it is economical, practical, and beneficial to the patients. With acupuncture anesthesia there is less bleeding during surgery and, since the patient is mentally alert and able to communicate with the surgeon, the surgeon is able to judge operative results as the operation proceeds. There is also quicker post-operative recovery.

  • acupuncture florida dot com link

US National Library of Medicine National Institutes of Health Acupuncture anaesthesia for open heart surgery pdf link available

T. CHENG

Acupuncture Reduces Pain, Need For Opioids After Surgery

Oct. 18, 2007 — Using acupuncture before and during surgery significantly reduces the level of pain and the amount of potent painkillers needed by patients after the surgery is over, according to Duke University Medical Center anesthesiologists who combined data from 15 small randomized acupuncture clinical trials

~

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thanx 4 all the useful linx 3rd i. I appreciate your contribution! Do you have links on stuff other than acupuncture as well?

Actually, if you spell it "medicineless", Google gives you 134,000 results, while "medicinless" gives you 606. (Well, now, 607 results.)

I just made a typo in the title. When I did the search I did it correctly. And 0 results on the UM site.

It is one thing to put up a cheap website and make wild claims, it is another altogether to prove a 100% success rate. Sorry, but I just do not believe Western Medicine would overlook treatments with a 100% success rate. They would indeed be all over it. Not all of it is corrupt.

First off, the website I offered is not some kind of official "network of chinese medicineless hospitals" website. I wanted to share knowledge of these hospitals and the whole phenomenon that is spreading, certainly not through the media, so I did a google search and picked a random website so you can got some idea of what I'm on about rather than trying to give an incomplete and possibly mistake-laden account from memory. There are thousands more websites, some explain it better and in more detail than others. Again, I wasn't looking for opinions on one website or on GB's personality or his "work", more like the power of Chi and its uses for healing and its other forms and/or names like prana etc. Would love to know more about CT as well, maybe anyone here practising?

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What a fantastic way for China to keep its healthcare costs in check.

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thanx 4 all the useful linx 3rd i. I appreciate your contribution! Do you have links on stuff other than acupuncture as well?

~snip

Sites and sources in ENglish is rare ... but gimme a day or two ... I am in a bit of a squeeze on time ... the Holidays and Festivities and all ... one note on QiGOng though ... be very careful as the concerns regarding shamans and false claims are a plenty is not unfounded ...

~

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I believe in chi related healing, and I would definitely love to believe that "chi.hospitals" have a success rate of 95%.... but, the sad truth is that chinese, and many asian countries have a bad habit of sugarcoating pretty much everything. The extreme example here being North Korea and their ridiculous Kim Jong Il worship. This sugarcoating is mostly performed by the governments to improve the country's image. Let's face it, chinese people are pretty damn good at lying, I've been a victim of this too, sadly.

Now there is truth in chinese medicine, but much is just mumbojumbo that the higher-ups have made up to make China seem like a mysterious wonderland (for example: taiji, when done properly, with the right breathing and body control can work miracles for your body, BUT it won't cure cancer). You have to go pretty deep into the more desolate, traditional and less known parts of china to find the good stuff, and when (if) you do find the good stuff, it's really unlikely that the people would be willing to share their secrets with an outsider, especially if he/she is a westerner.

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I believe in chi related healing, and I would definitely love to believe that "chi.hospitals" have a success rate of 95%.... but, the sad truth is that chinese, and many asian countries have a bad habit of sugarcoating pretty much everything. The extreme example here being North Korea and their ridiculous Kim Jong Il worship. This sugarcoating is mostly performed by the governments to improve the country's image. Let's face it, chinese people are pretty damn good at lying, I've been a victim of this too, sadly.

Now there is truth in chinese medicine, but much is just mumbojumbo that the higher-ups have made up to make China seem like a mysterious wonderland (for example: taiji, when done properly, with the right breathing and body control can work miracles for your body, BUT it won't cure cancer). You have to go pretty deep into the more desolate, traditional and less known parts of china to find the good stuff, and when (if) you do find the good stuff, it's really unlikely that the people would be willing to share their secrets with an outsider, especially if he/she is a westerner.

Ahhh ... how do I start ... first of all .. the 'Chinese' are as damn good at lying as any other racial or religious denomination ...

Fro man Asian point of view .. and I speak of this from experience ... the problem usually stems from Westerners are so filled with 'ideas' that when you say 'one' they go ' five billion ... why not? ' and makes massive leaps to conclusions .. that's why Chinese teachers/masters is very reluctant to take on students such as these ... not only westerners ...

A Cup of Tea

Nan-in, a Japanese master during the Meiji era (1868-1912), received a university professor who came to inquire about Zen.

Nan-in served tea. He poured his visitor's cup full, and then kept on pouring.

The professor watched the overflow until he no longer could restrain himself. "It is overfull. No more will go in!"

"Like this cup," Nan-in said, "you are full of your own opinions and speculations. How can I show you Zen unless you first empty your cup?"

  • 101 Zen Stories link

Another problem is a lot of Westerners come with preconceived expectations ... and when they are not met ... they accuse.

Most times ... one does not need to lie to them .. they are already lying to themselves ... most of their lives.

_______________________________________________________

Qigong exercises expand healing energy

By Julie Fann

STAR STAFF

jfann@starhq.com

Webb recently attended a Qigong seminar in Asheville, N.C. where he said approximately 200 people attended. Relatively new to Americans, Webb hopes the exercises will be used more to help those who suffer from life-threatening illnesses such as cancer.

"It is so sensitive to helping people, that we will volunteer to help somebody at no charge. Then, if they like what we do, they can make a little contribution to help keep us going," Webb said. "You've got to kind of accept something and say, 'if there is some truth here, maybe I should try it.'"

Webb said that, in China, there are instances where Qigong exercises have healed those suffering from cancer.

"Sooner or later, nearly every major doctor's office will have someone who knows something about Qigong on their staff," said Webb.

Webb explained that western medicine focuses too heavily on treating symptoms through medication, rather than finding alternative ways to promote health for individuals.

Dr Amir Farid Isahak is a medical specialist who practises holistic, aesthetic and anti-ageing medicine. He is a qigong master and founder of SuperQigong.

Art of Healing

Published: Sunday January 29, 2012 MYT 12:00:00 AM

Updated: Thursday August 22, 2013 MYT 7:07:44 PM

Shaolin YiJinJing Qigong - link

Sunday November 6, 2005

The secrets of qigong - link

Sunday April 23, 2006

Qigong revival - link

Dr Amir is a higly respected spokesman for QiGong practices for years ...

DR AMIR FARID ISAHAK ( link ) was the Founding President of Guolin Qigong Association Malaysia and was also the Vice-President of the Malaysian Reiki Association. He has been practising and teaching Qigong ( Islamic, Guolin, Xiangong and Shaolin Qigong ) for about 15 years, and is a respected Qigong Master and Reiki Master ( Usui & Karuna Reiki ). He is the founder of "SuperQigong" - a set of Qigong exercises most beneficial to prevent or recover from the most common health problems - cancer, heart disease, stroke, arthritis, spinal problems, etc. These exercises include the anti-cancer Amazing Qigong Walk, and other exercises modified from classic Qigong styles, and also invented by him.

He is a senior medical consultant with over 25 years of practice [ Qualifications = MBBS ( Qld,Aust ), MMED ( Spore ), MRCOG ( UK ) ]. He is a pioneer of Anti-Aging Medicine in Malaysia. He is a member of the Society of Anti-Aging Medicine Malaysia, Healthy Aging Society Malaysia, and a Board Member of the International Health & Longevity Foundation based in Japan. He is also a pioneer in promoting Holistic Integrated Medicine ( combining modern, natural and complementary therapies ), and in promoting Healthy Natural Menopause in Malaysian women.

I think that's a good start for the time being ... good luck ...

but also ... on the flip side ...

Qigong master to the stars ‘cursed’ journalist for exposing his tricks

Global Times | 2013-7-24 0:08:01

By Global Times

Zhang Han, a journalist from The Beijing News, published an article on Wang on Sunday, revealing Wang's secret of success, and detailing how he introduced rich business people who crave "a little help" to powerful government officials, for a price.

Zhang told the Global Times that she is not afraid of such "threats" and that she will keep covering the story via other ways.

Photos circulating on the Internet show Wang's immense resources and networking capabilities. He was seen in photos with China's top government officials and celebrities, such as movie star Jet Li and Jack Ma, billionaire founder of online shopping portal Taobao and website Alibaba.

Wang's most famous "supernatural" trick is to conjure snakes from an empty basin. He explained that the snakes were freshly caught in the field by his spirit, which could leave his body and travel thousands of miles in the blink of an eye.

Most times when there is a spectacle of 'miracle illusions' ... best do a double check ... 'Masters' as defined by Asians do not make a spectacle of themselves ...

~

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Ahhh ... how do I start ... first of all .. the 'Chinese' are as damn good at lying as any other racial or religious denomination ...

Fro man Asian point of view .. and I speak of this from experience ... the problem usually stems from Westerners are so filled with 'ideas' that when you say 'one' they go ' five billion ... why not? ' and makes massive leaps to conclusions .. that's why Chinese teachers/masters is very reluctant to take on students such as these ... not only westerners ...

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound offensive in any way. I didn't mean that all Chinese are liars, lying is a very strong word any ways, and I have a bad habit of generalizing... What I was trying to get to was more like people from western cultures have a harder time interpreting body language, like smiling and saying yes yes can mean no (based from my chinese teacher, don't bite my head off if I'm wrong). What I meant by my own experience was that when I visited China last year, I got hustled quite a bit (except for the time when my local friend was along with me). I realize that this is a common phenomenon in several areas that have tourists, but I believe that since I'm from Finland, where people are quite straight forward and blunt (overly so too from an outsiders perspective), I am somewhat ethnocentric when it comes to self expression.

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Sorry, I didn't mean to sound offensive in any way. I didn't mean that all Chinese are liars, lying is a very strong word any ways, and I have a bad habit of generalizing... What I was trying to get to was more like people from western cultures have a harder time interpreting body language, like smiling and saying yes yes can mean no (based from my chinese teacher, don't bite my head off if I'm wrong). What I meant by my own experience was that when I visited China last year, I got hustled quite a bit (except for the time when my local friend was along with me). I realize that this is a common phenomenon in several areas that have tourists, but I believe that since I'm from Finland, where people are quite straight forward and blunt (overly so too from an outsiders perspective), I am somewhat ethnocentric when it comes to self expression.

No worries ... If I were to make conclusions based solely on shucksters that skims profits off tourists, the world would be the same kind of landscape that you speak of to me also :yes: It the same everywhere ... hence 'tourist trap'

China is especially bad for a time because the 'opening' also came with opportunities ... a free for all ... and not only for the honest down to earth honest hard working 'China man' and I can assure you that Westerners were not only their intended targets ... now these idiots even bring their operations off shore to other countries in the region ... scam artists that makes millions in a few months and then 'disappears' Malaysia has made arrests of well over hundreds of them this year alone.

One thing about Asians is the oriental 'directness' and 'bluntness' is often misunderstood ... direct and strait to the point is being as honest as possible to us. And most often thought of as rude or blunt.

~

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What a fantastic way for China to keep its healthcare costs in check.

AND their population.

Harte

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Thanks 3rd eye, you say not many good sites in English. Then link your best Chinese sites, we all have Google Translate, it's not the best but we can get an idea from the context.

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Thanks 3rd eye, you say not many good sites in English. Then link your best Chinese sites, we all have Google Translate, it's not the best but we can get an idea from the context.

Not recommended ... Mandarin comes in too many internet flavors ... and Google translate mucks them up very very badly ... not to mention there is Cantonese (Hong Kong) .... believe me ... a little idea is the least you can get from online translators ...

~ best to find English writers knowledgeable about the topic writing in English ... its hard enough with the cultural idiosyncrasies to write about the subject without personal experiences on the topic here ....

~

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I believe in chi related healing, and I would definitely love to believe that "chi.hospitals" have a success rate of 95%.... but, the sad truth is that chinese, and many asian countries have a bad habit of sugarcoating pretty much everything. The extreme example here being North Korea and their ridiculous Kim Jong Il worship. This sugarcoating is mostly performed by the governments to improve the country's image. Let's face it, chinese people are pretty damn good at lying, I've been a victim of this too, sadly.

If it was as miraculous as some claim, we would not even have Western Medicine.

Now there is truth in chinese medicine, but much is just mumbojumbo that the higher-ups have made up to make China seem like a mysterious wonderland (for example: taiji, when done properly, with the right breathing and body control can work miracles for your body, BUT it won't cure cancer). You have to go pretty deep into the more desolate, traditional and less known parts of china to find the good stuff, and when (if) you do find the good stuff, it's really unlikely that the people would be willing to share their secrets with an outsider, especially if he/she is a westerner.

This sounds spot on.

I agree, after all a great many drugs come from plants don't they. Any long tradition with deep experience would be a livelihood, and I would not expect that to be shared freely. It is also hard to consider what secrets people think are still being kept from Western Medicine, who not only advocate stuff that actually works, but tests it to see what works for most people and what side effects might be present. Plant extracts are where drugs come from, and an awesome example if a Pharmaceutical Company right here in Australia who has made a revolutionary skin cancer treatment out of a common weed. It has great and amazing healing properties, but the amount of this weed they have to process to make one small tube is phenomenal, you could never smear that much on your body. Whilst it is beneficial in natural form, strength is just not enough to be of assistance. I agree the benefits can be there, but guidance from a knowledgeable authority like Western Medicine is still required or one is just stumbling about in the dark.

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Thanks 3rd eye, you say not many good sites in English. Then link your best Chinese sites, we all have Google Translate, it's not the best but we can get an idea from the context.

Yes, because that is where Chinese traditionalists tend to store their thoughts, recipes and medical documents isn't it. I have never seen a photo of a chinese man on his pushbike attending a small home in the middle of nowhere without his laptop.

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