Eastside Catholic High School Parents

[MissMelsWell]

Eastside Catholic High School Parents, Alumni and Students fight to reinstate gay vice principal after he legally married his partner over the summer.

Alumni, students and parents from a Seattle Catholic school are fighting to have a revered vice principal reinstated, after school officials discovered his marriage to another man.

Supporters of Mark Zmuda vowed to pull funds from Eastside Catholic High School, after the school sent out a letter announcing he had resigned and calling his marriage a violation of his contract, which requires a strict adherence to a Catholic code.

"Shame on you!" wrote a passionate alumnus on the Eastside Catholic High School Alumni Facebook page in response to the school's letter.

View: http://abcnews.go.co...ory?id=21305512

This school is really just up the street from my home. It's an excellent private Catholic school, and I have many friends who went to school there and many friends whose children are enrolled there as well. I know at least one of my friends, who isn't pulling his kids out (they're 11th and 12th grades) but he's already sent the Archdiocese a letter informing then that while he'll keep his kids in school, there will be no more donations above and beyond tuition... I'm hearing this from a LOT of other parents too.

Seattle has a very conservative Archbishop, who most of the Catholics in the area aren't fond of. It should be very interesting to see how this plays out.

It's pretty interesting in the comments how many people are shouting that if they don't like it, they should pull their kids out and send them to an inferior public school... the funny part they don't know? Newport High School is right down the street from ECCatholic... Newport is generally ranked in the top of FIVE of ALL high schools in the nation (and several years they've been No 1)... ECCatholic doesn't even make the top 1000. haha.

Edited December 23, 2013 by MissMelsWell

[+Sherapy]

This school is really just up the street from my home. It's an excellent private Catholic school, and I have many friends who went to school there and many friends whose children are enrolled there as well. I know at least one of my friends, who isn't pulling his kids out (they're 11th and 12th grades) but he's already sent the Archdiocese a letter informing then that while he'll keep his kids in school, there will be no more donations above and beyond tuition... I'm hearing this from a LOT of other parents too.

Seattle has a very conservative Archbishop, who most of the Catholics in the area aren't fond of. It should be very interesting to see how this plays out.

It's pretty interesting in the comments how many people are shouting that if they don't like it, they should pull their kids out and send them to an inferior public school... the funny part they don't know? Newport High School is right down the street from ECCatholic... Newport is generally ranked in the top of FIVE of ALL high schools in the nation (and several years they've been No 1)... ECCatholic doesn't even make the top 1000. haha.

I often hear that private Catholic school is the best that education has to offer. Unless it is Jesuit, I wouldn't be too quick to buy into it.

[eight bits]

Sherapy

Unless it is Jesuit, I wouldn't be too quick to buy into it.

?

I am a New Englander, and think of Jebbie places like Boston College High School. OK, it's not Boston Latin , but it is a very good high school by all acoounts.

I do think that affronts to reason like what MMW posted in the OP are part of the non-monetary price of religious education generally.

[ShadowSot]

An Oklahoma rep wants those kids who walked oout to be dismissed:

The students who have walked out should be dismissed from the school. If that means temporarily closing the school, or maybe even lowering the tuition a bit so that a less entitled group of young people can study there, so be it.

link

Apparently, the act of standing up for something you find is wrong is an act of entitlement.

I found the Catholic private schools I went to had good education, part of the reason I lost my education. The Evangelical school I attended as a kid, which does not have a good curriculum, did a much better job keeping me religious.

Edited December 23, 2013 by ShadowSot

[MissMelsWell]

I often hear that private Catholic school is the best that education has to offer. Unless it is Jesuit, I wouldn't be too quick to buy into it.

My sister got one of her undergrad degrees from a Jesuit university ... excellent school. They catered to a lot of nursing students, other life sciences disciplines, business, and of course theology (they had a seminary on campus). It was a very small school, so they chose their offered degree courses carefully, and did them all well. They also excelled in athletics.

Eastside Catholic mentioned in the article is not a Jesuit school to the best of my knowledge. There are basically 4 very large catholic high schools in the Seattle metro area... they're all pretty good schools. I don't know that they're worth their tuition costs, but still very good schools.

[+Sherapy]

Sherapy

?

I am a New Englander, and think of Jebbie places like Boston College High School. OK, it's not Boston Latin , but it is a very good high school by all acoounts.

I do think that affronts to reason like what MMW posted in the OP are part of the non-monetary price of religious education generally.

Hello 8ty, I am pleased to see you posting; I miss you around here. I want to wish you and yours a Happy Holiday and awesome New Year. The personal educational journey I embarked on with my son (home school--online route) is living breathing proof that MMW has a great point. IMO a great education is more about effort(on the kids part) and resources(in the way of friends /slash mentors.) I do not begrudge those that want to invest their money, and I agree it is certainly a worthy cause but it doesn't have to be expensive or Catholic to be great.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sherapy

[+OverSword]

Sherapy

?

I am a New Englander, and think of Jebbie places like Boston College High School. OK, it's not Boston Latin , but it is a very good high school by all acoounts.

I do think that affronts to reason like what MMW posted in the OP are part of the non-monetary price of religious education generally.

What do you mean by affronts to reason?

[+Sherapy]

My sister got one of her undergrad degrees from a Jesuit university ... excellent school. They catered to a lot of nursing students, other life sciences disciplines, business, and of course theology (they had a seminary on campus). It was a very small school, so they chose their offered degree courses carefully, and did them all well. They also excelled in athletics.

Eastside Catholic mentioned in the article is not a Jesuit school to the best of my knowledge. There are basically 4 very large catholic high schools in the Seattle metro area... they're all pretty good schools. I don't know that they're worth their tuition costs, but still very good schools.

The Jesuit ones are run by the order as opposed to the Diocese. We have one here in California that I know of. I agree with you some of the best High Schools we have here are lowly public schools. I won't say we are overrun with them but they do exist.

[MissMelsWell]

I think the real injustice is that the Archdiocese fired a very well liked and respected VP who from all information did his job VERY well. They had no problem keeping him on staff knowing full well he was gay and in a same sex relationship. They fired him when they found out he'd married. And same sex marriage is very legal in Washington State.

A couple of friends of mine are attorney's and are actually quite interested to see if this goes to court at any point. ECC didn't have a problem employing an opening gay man, apparently that didn't violate their moral code, but getting married did? That makes NO sense and I think it actually sends a very poor message to the students. Apparently most of the parents, students, staff and alumni thought so too.

Edited December 23, 2013 by MissMelsWell

[+Sherapy]

What do you mean by affronts to reason?

8ty just means that it is a common over generalization here in America that if it's Catholic and a school it is better. No need to ask questions or inquire any further.

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sherapy

[+Sherapy]

I think the real injustice is that the Archdiocese fired a very well liked and respected VP who from all information did his job VERY well. They had no problem keeping him on staff knowing full well he was gay and in a same sex relationship. They fired him when they found out he'd married. And same sex marriage is very legal in Washington State.

A couple of friends of mine are attorney's and are actually quite interested to see if this goes to court at any point. ECC didn't have a problem employing an opening gay man, apparently that didn't violate their moral code, but getting married did? That makes NO sense and I think it actually sends a very poor message to the students. Apparently most of the parents, students, staff and alumni thought so too.

I agree it is a great injustice, I think we had a similar issue here in one of our Catholic schools. Good curriculum or not, to posit for discrimination would be a deal breaker for me. Great thread!

http://www.nbclosang...-218839491.html

Edited December 23, 2013 by Sherapy

[eight bits]

It was funny, reading the blog entry by the Oklahoma state rep. I just happened to be reading USA Today this morning, and they had a blurb on Pope Francis. This recent quote from Francis came up:

If someone is gay, and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?

Looks to me as if the students who walked out in support of the administrator expected their church and school to follow the top boss' word. I think the Oklahoma blogger should seriously reconsider her recommendations about the students - unless, of course, she imagines that she's more Catholic than the Pope.

[ShadowSot]

It was funny, reading the blog entry by the Oklahoma state rep. I just happened to be reading USA Today this morning, and they had a blurb on Pope Francis. This recent quote from Francis came up:

If someone is gay, and he searches for the Lord and has good will, who am I to judge?

Looks to me as if the students who walked out in support of the administrator expected their church and school to follow the top boss' word. I think the Oklahoma blogger should seriously reconsider her recommendations about the students - unless, of course, she imagines that she's more Catholic than the Pope.

It should be clear that the Pope and the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality is that you can be a homosexual, so long as you don't do anything gay.

By marrying another man, he has done something gay.

They still see homosexuality as immoral and a sin.

[MissMelsWell]

It should be clear that the Pope and the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality is that you can be a homosexual, so long as you don't do anything gay.

By marrying another man, he has done something gay.

They still see homosexuality as immoral and a sin.

But the archdiocese has always known this VP was gay, and lived with his partner. The whole student body knew it, the parents knew it, the staff knew it and so did the archbishop. It was only when he quietly got married (which is legal in Wa. State) that they had a full blown cow. The message they're sending to everyone now is that you can be gay, but don't make it legal or committed lifetime partnership. I'm pretty sure that's a bad message to send for more than one reason.

[ShadowSot]

But the archdiocese has always known this VP was gay, and lived with his partner. The whole student body knew it, the parents knew it, the staff knew it and so did the archbishop. It was only when he quietly got married (which is legal in Wa. State) that they had a full blown cow. The message they're sending to everyone now is that you can be gay, but don't make it legal or committed lifetime partnership. I'm pretty sure that's a bad message to send for more than one reason.

It seems that some people have gotten more comfortable with homosexuality, but not them getting married. And them getting married is very much against Catholic teachings.

I'm sort of guessing here, but they have a very specific definition of marriage that doesn't apply to gays and that might be where they feel the line was crossed.

As far as the church itself is concerned, him living with his partner was bad enough. So this school was less Catholic than the church, really.

[+Paranoid Android]

When finishing my teaching course at university, I looked into teaching in the Catholic School system. My understanding was that a teacher in the upper echelons of the hierarchy (non-Catholics couldn't rise higher than Head Teacher) had in their contracts a requirement to uphold church values, at least publicly. I would contend then, that the VP should have been sacked the moment it became public knowledge that he was in a gay relationship. The fact that the school didn't do anything until he got married is presenting a double standard by the school, but I think the reason they didn't is because I don't think that the school could enforce the contract breach until they had solid legal proof that he was breaching contract. A legal marriage provides that proof.

[eight bits]

SS

It should be clear that the Pope and the Catholic church's stance on homosexuality is that you can be a homosexual, so long as you don't do anything gay.

By marrying another man, he has done something gay.

They still see homosexuality as immoral and a sin.

That's all very interesting, but not the issues before us. Nobody is saying that Catholics do not officially regard homosexual acts as sinful. The issues are what a church officer might do about a situation where homosexual activity is presumed, and how this offcial response should afftect relationships among third parties, like the school and its students.

The Pope is a Jesuit, and his order has a long history of scepticism about the use of temporal sanctions to enfore "moral" public behavior. It is entirely possible, then, that the Pope meant what he said, "Who am I to judge?" However atypical such a remark may be for a Pope, it sounds very Jesuitical, and he is the first of his order to sit in the big chair.

If you discern some lack of clarity in what he said, then that's fine, but the proposal made by the blogger is that the students who walked out should be subject to disciplinary reprisal. I find this proposal, even accepting Catholic premises, indefensible. The students were entitled to read the Pope's remarks as supportive of continued tolerant acceptance of this administrator, and the students may well be right about that.

I'm sort of guessing here, but they have a very specific definition of marriage that doesn't apply to gays and that might be where they feel the line was crossed.

The two men are sacramentally unmarried by church definition. Civil marriage has no effect within the church. As I say, the Jesuits as an order have been tolerant of civil arrangements that have no effect within the church. Problem solved, or so one might presume in good faith, which should suffice to insulate the students' protest from retribution.

PA

As other posters have remarked, the lawyers are sniffing blood in the water. Assuming that the facts are as presented, and that the school knew of the administrator's living arrangements, and did not fire him, then he might argue (very possibly successfully, since Washington is a left-libertarian state with left-period federal courts) that his exercise of a civil right (which civil marriage is) could not change the terms of a contract where the fact of his sexual activity had been accepted. A contract is a meeting of the minds, and the minds met here.

I sense, however, that the school is already willing to deal to make the separation amicable and quiet. A nice parting gift, featuring plenty of cash, and a good reference could ensure that the administrator has no complaint. Third parties have no standing in a contract dispute like this. "No standing," however, in no way infringes on the right of third parties, like the students, to protest the impact of the decision on their own contractual interests.

Edited December 25, 2013 by eight bits

[ShadowSot]

Eight Bits, on homosexuality he has stated:

""The teaching of the church, for that matter, is clear and I am a son of the church, but it is not necessary to talk about these issues all the time," he said.

Francis said in the interview that the catechism, or the Roman Catholic Church's official doctrine book, condemns homosexual acts, but he called on the Church to love gays and lesbians, who "must be accepted with respect, compassion and sensitivity."

He has not changed the churches stance, he has made his stance clear, which is not different from previous Popes, it is only his way of stating it that is different.

[eight bits]

SS

He has not changed the churches stance, ...

Nobody said he did. Homosexual activity is a sin - there's procedure for forgiving those. Now that we have that out of the way, there is the question of what the church thinks it should do about it. History suggests the the church can be very tolerant of sinful things when it chooses to.

Francis is the chief executive offier. Hhe decides not what the organization objects to, but what the organization will do about the things to which it objects.

he has made his stance clear, which is not different from previous Popes, it is only his way of stating it that is different.

Well, we'll see in good time whether he's all talk. I'm not psychic. I have my understanding of the people, organizations and traditions in play. My understanding may be proved right or it may be proved wrong.

Merry Christmas, SS.

[ShadowSot]

The best we can hope for is he'll continue the culture which leads homosexual youths and adults to commit suicide and be mistreated by their peers.

Merry Christmas, 8 bits.

[MissMelsWell]

It seems that some people have gotten more comfortable with homosexuality, but not them getting married. And them getting married is very much against Catholic teachings.

I'm sort of guessing here, but they have a very specific definition of marriage that doesn't apply to gays and that might be where they feel the line was crossed.

As far as the church itself is concerned, him living with his partner was bad enough. So this school was less Catholic than the church, really.

But they weren't married in a Catholic Church, they were married in a civil service, which if I'm not mistaken, is NOT considered "married" within the Catholic church. For example, my cousin (female) and her husband (male) were married in a Methodist church, and later, had to get married all over again in a Catholic church for them to be considered "legally married" in the eyes of the church--until that point, they were generally considered to be living in sin.

He married in a civil service, who cares? The church doesn't recognize it.

Edited December 27, 2013 by MissMelsWell