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What if the religionists have it correct?

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Okay, here's the idea and I hope we can discuss it without the usual waste of time denouncing religion in general or the arguing over which religion is "more" correct. What I have been wondering as we approach a new year that is sue to be filled with more violence, death and upheaval is this:

What if those people of faith, Christians Muslims or Jews as an example are correct and there IS one God and he IS about to return to set things in order? I'm not talking about some ethereal plane of existence where souls linger on clouds or debauch themselves endlessly with virgins or any of the extreme things some religions are noted for. Leaving all that stuff aside it seems the one true common thread of belief is about the presence of peace - a lack of enmity and strife among humanity where we all really work together for a common purpose. It excites me to think of what a single wealthy and focused group of humanity did in 10 short years back in the Kennedy era. America, for all it's faults, was a union of great minds and hearts and ambitions at that time and we set a goal for ourselves and in spite of actively fighting a war we , a conglomeration of minds from every country on earth, made a dream of all humanity down the ages come true. For a brief moment all of mankind exulted in the glory of what seemed a miracle. What if we finally "came to our senses" and we acknowledged the fruitlessness of scrabbling for money, power and possessions and we set out to dream together and to actually help everyone on the planet without thought of anything but loving each other? I believe that we could end hunger globally within less than a decade. Disease could be greatly reduced and better understood and pain could be nearly eliminated. These two things alone would create a burst of creativity and advances in thinking and producing unlike any other time in our history. I see advances in technologies that would transform the planet in so many ways.

So here's the point of the thread - what do YOU see happening, specifically? What kinds of changes and advances? Have fun with it and dream into reality!

Duncan

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I like what you see. As a person who has a religion, I'd welcome it, even if I were wrong about my beliefs.

I feel that if a god (not picking any so I may view it as fresh) were to make herself/himself/itself known, there would still be arguments, anger, fear and perhaps all of it would be justified. "Why did you let my brother die at a young age?" The way I see the event, I sadly see people becoming more (I lost the word) segregated. I told you so's and all that jazz.

If I were proved wrong (Let's say a god named Frank, nothing to do with the Abrahamic religions) about god, I don't know how easily I'd accept Frank. Imagine learning everthing you believed (or didn't) was wrong. People off themselves for less.

But peace? I'd love it. I guess I just view humanity in a dark light, religion or not.

EDIT:

If I had to view it in a positive light, I see less technology, more family. People would be drawn closer, realizing that we are all one big family. Not that tech is wrong, but I think our focus would shift, from "More more more" to "More love, more fun, more laughter, more shared tears". I guess my idea of perfection in humanity is more on an emotional level than a technological one. I will dance like no one ever has when the day that enemies embrace, that all hatred is destroyed.

Edited by RedSquirrel
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I like what you see. As a person who has a religion, I'd welcome it, even if I were wrong about my beliefs.

I feel that if a god (not picking any so I may view it as fresh) were to make herself/himself/itself known, there would still be arguments, anger, fear and perhaps all of it would be justified. "Why did you let my brother die at a young age?" The way I see the event, I sadly see people becoming more (I lost the word) segregated. I told you so's and all that jazz.

Actually, I think it would be more - is my brother happy and can you please let my brother know I love him ... just saying.

If I were proved wrong (Let's say a god named Frank, nothing to do with the Abrahamic religions) about god, I don't know how easily I'd accept Frank. Imagine learning everthing you believed (or didn't) was wrong. People off themselves for less.

God is God, if all the current religions, or some are wrong about his nature - that is the new revelation of the current age, changes nothing in terms of acceptance - in fact it would make it a lot easier to know what the next step is, the more radically different from what the popular view circa "religious dogma" is the better imo.

But peace? I'd love it. I guess I just view humanity in a dark light, religion or not.

Anything would be a small price to pay for peace, turn my world upside down and inside out if that is the end result, I'll buy that ticket and take that ride.

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*Snip*

What if those people of faith, Christians Muslims or Jews as an example are correct and there IS one God and he IS about to return to set things in order? I'm not talking about some ethereal plane of existence where souls linger on clouds or debauch themselves endlessly with virgins or any of the extreme things some religions are noted for. Leaving all that stuff aside it seems the one true common thread of belief is about the presence of peace - a lack of enmity and strife among humanity where we all really work together for a common purpose.

*Snip*

The problem is that religion divides, and as long as religion divides people there will never be peace. Not in the way you're thinking.

Do you really envision a world where all the people of this world can unite and live in peace? I just don't see it in a world where some of the religions want to dominate and convert everyone to their religion.

Peace....

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The problem is that religion divides, and as long as religion divides people there will never be peace. Not in the way you're thinking.

Do you really envision a world where all the people of this world can unite and live in peace? I just don't see it in a world where some of the religions want to dominate and convert everyone to their religion.

Peace....

If God showed up it would end all religion as we know it - we would be united in our experience, whatever that would be and there would be no need to refer to old dogmas when we have the Word of God right in front of us here and now

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If God showed up it would end all religion as we know it - we would be united in our experience, whatever that would be and there would be no need to refer to old dogmas when we have the Word of God right in front of us here and now

The problem is that you've been waiting for your god to return for ~ two thousand years. I don't believe in god, but if a being "showed up" proclaiming to be god he would most certainly have to prove he is god or at least our creator. I don't see this happening as there is simply no proof of a god.....only faith in god.

Here we are........already divided.....

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What if those people of faith, Christians Muslims or Jews as an example are correct and there IS one God and he IS about to return to set things in order?

What does order mean in this context? Given the faiths you've listed I can only imagine some kind of totalitarian theocracy.
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The problem is that you've been waiting for your god to return for ~ two thousand years. I don't believe in god, but if a being "showed up" proclaiming to be god he would most certainly have to prove he is god or at least our creator. I don't see this happening as there is simply no proof of a god.....only faith in god.

Here we are........already divided.....

Nope, you have made a huge assumption - I have not been waiting for any such thing. I was merely playing to the OPs thought experiment - part of that thought experiment was to suspend skepticism and play the "what if" card - but you can't do that, and that is the substance of the division, nothing else.

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What does order mean in this context? Given the faiths you've listed I can only imagine some kind of totalitarian theocracy.

He mentioned those faiths "as an example" aka: including but by no means limited to.

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And then, you said; "Leaving all that stuff aside it seems the one true common thread of belief is about the presence of peace - a lack of enmity and strife among humanity where we all really work together for a common purpose."

But, you're also describing the best parts of the secular world. I can't see how one can ask the question, "What if the religionists have it correct?" and in the same breath exclude those of non-belief as well.

But yes, if the secularists and 'religionists' (as you say) would come together, there is nothing that we might not overcome, together.

Edited by Likely Guy
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And then, you said; "Leaving all that stuff aside it seems the one true common thread of belief is about the presence of peace - a lack of enmity and strife among humanity where we all really work together for a common purpose."

But, you're also describing the best parts of the secular world. I can't see how one can ask the question, "What if the religionists have it correct?" and in the same breath exclude those of non-belief as well.

But yes, if the secularists and 'religionists' (as you say) would come together, there is nothing that we might not overcome, together.

No, LG I think that the secularists can be excluded for the sake of the discussion because they have no faith at all. I don't impugn their right to that stance - but this is about finding acceptance that there really IS a Creator and then living under his dominion.

What does order mean in this context? Given the faiths you've listed I can only imagine some kind of totalitarian theocracy.

In the sense that freedom of choice about whether you will obey the God or not is indeed gone, you are correct in calling it totalitarian theocracy. And your apparent attitude toward that is one of rebellion, am I correct? This is the kind of dissonance that would need to be removed for peace to ever have a chance. And before your righteous indignation blows :).... try to just imagine that there is something out there greater than oneself that is all powerful and that has your best interests at heart. If you are totally unable to do that then this discussion is of little value to you I'm afraid. This entity will not be coming to beg or plead or even make an offer, he will be coming to finally set the creation in order. Those who simply cannot or will not live in a paradise - minus their own self will - will probably cease to exist for the good of the many. A kind, loving and generous human being would WANT to help rather than hinder the benefit of the many who are suffering -no?

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No, LG I think that the secularists can be excluded for the sake of the discussion because they have no faith at all.

Is that strictly what LG meant? I took it as more that given the thought experiment especially established that God, whatever his nature made direct contact with ALL of us then the secularists would be included in those that had a current experience to work with. Also, secularists could include those that have no specific religion, believe in God and at the same time believe that society should be run by secular laws to remain inclusive of all members (you can correct any part of this LG that is just how I understood what you said).

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No, LG I think that the secularists can be excluded for the sake of the discussion because they have no faith at all. I don't impugn their right to that stance - but this is about finding acceptance that there really IS a Creator and then living under his dominion.In the sense that freedom of choice about whether you will obey the God or not is indeed gone, you are correct in calling it totalitarian theocracy. And your apparent attitude toward that is one of rebellion, am I correct?

I can't help but to think many believers will too when they find out they've lost many freedoms.
This is the kind of dissonance that would need to be removed for peace to ever have a chance.
Removing everyone who disagrees is only one way of forging peace. This Abrahamic deity has had more success at creating conflict.
And before your righteous indignation blows :).... try to just imagine that there is something out there greater than oneself that is all powerful and that has your best interests at heart.
And what are my best interests?
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I believe that we could end hunger globally within less than a decade. Disease could be greatly reduced and better understood and pain could be nearly eliminated. These two things alone would create a burst of creativity and advances in thinking and producing unlike any other time in our history. I see advances in technologies that would transform the planet in so many ways.

So here's the point of the thread - what do YOU see happening, specifically? What kinds of changes and advances? Have fun with it and dream into reality!

Duncan

Great Sentiment, and one no right minded person can argue with, but I feel until our distinguished species aquires a clearer understanding of its orientation in the world it finds itself. The ratio between technological understanding, and universally benefictial apllication will always be scewed.

This will continue until the human order of priorities changes in favour of the greater visions you have described. Historically these reorderings of priorities come only after great suffering, and upheaval. So I think the current sensation humanity has, which could be disengenuously compared to an Elizabethen Farmer charged with the task of finding the off switch in a nuclear power plant will continue.

I think the elements of developement, progress to higher degrees of refinemened order etc, and the concious organism filled with a resistence to change. Is perpetually at the heart of such a self reflective species' progress. I think what i am trying to say is that our ability to map the future in any true sense of the word is shrinking by the day. I'm not saying this in a "In the near future we'll all be happy robots" sense.

I mean it more from the perspcetive of the unimaginable scope of influencing factors interacting with the species. Either that, or the X-men movie has taken my common sense hostage.

:tu:

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Okay, here's the idea and I hope we can discuss it without the usual waste of time denouncing religion in general or the arguing over which religion is "more" correct. What I have been wondering as we approach a new year that is sue to be filled with more violence, death and upheaval is this:

What if those people of faith, Christians Muslims or Jews as an example are correct and there IS one God and he IS about to return to set things in order? I'm not talking about some ethereal plane of existence where souls linger on clouds or debauch themselves endlessly with virgins or any of the extreme things some religions are noted for. Leaving all that stuff aside it seems the one true common thread of belief is about the presence of peace - a lack of enmity and strife among humanity where we all really work together for a common purpose. It excites me to think of what a single wealthy and focused group of humanity did in 10 short years back in the Kennedy era. America, for all it's faults, was a union of great minds and hearts and ambitions at that time and we set a goal for ourselves and in spite of actively fighting a war we , a conglomeration of minds from every country on earth, made a dream of all humanity down the ages come true. For a brief moment all of mankind exulted in the glory of what seemed a miracle. What if we finally "came to our senses" and we acknowledged the fruitlessness of scrabbling for money, power and possessions and we set out to dream together and to actually help everyone on the planet without thought of anything but loving each other? I believe that we could end hunger globally within less than a decade. Disease could be greatly reduced and better understood and pain could be nearly eliminated. These two things alone would create a burst of creativity and advances in thinking and producing unlike any other time in our history. I see advances in technologies that would transform the planet in so many ways.

So here's the point of the thread - what do YOU see happening, specifically? What kinds of changes and advances? Have fun with it and dream into reality!

Duncan

]

By "he IS about to return to set things in order", do you mean in a Revelation kind of way, a cleansing fire kind of thing, or do you mean the actual Kingdom of God, however one wants to see it, as promised by Jesus (which may or may not be the same thing, depending on whether you see him as believing the apocalyptic school of thought)? Personally I think nearly all conflict is simply because one group believes that they're right and that they're so convinced they're right that everyone else should see things the same way as they do; but in fact they're all wrong, not in believing that their particular approach is the way to reach God, it may well be for them, but in believing that everyone else should follow their way. I think what I would like to happen is just for people to realise that the God they're talking about is all the same one at the end of the day, This doesn't mean the suppression of individual religions or organised religion in general, in fact just the opposite, for people of differing and sometimes opposing faiths to realise that there's something they can learn from others.

And if only the more militant of the Atheist community would just lay off being so angry all the time, perhaps they too could realise that religion, and individual religions, could offer something of value to communities and to humanity in general.

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Is that strictly what LG meant? I took it as more that given the thought experiment especially established that God, whatever his nature made direct contact with ALL of us then the secularists would be included in those that had a current experience to work with. Also, secularists could include those that have no specific religion, believe in God and at the same time believe that society should be run by secular laws to remain inclusive of all members (you can correct any part of this LG that is just how I understood what you said).

That is true. Secularism and Agnosticism isn't necessarily the same thing as Atheism.

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Okay, here's the idea and I hope we can discuss it without the usual waste of time denouncing religion in general or the arguing over which religion is "more" correct. What I have been wondering as we approach a new year that is sue to be filled with more violence, death and upheaval is this:

What if those people of faith, Christians Muslims or Jews as an example are correct and there IS one God and he IS about to return to set things in order? I'm not talking about some ethereal plane of existence where souls linger on clouds or debauch themselves endlessly with virgins or any of the extreme things some religions are noted for. Leaving all that stuff aside it seems the one true common thread of belief is about the presence of peace - a lack of enmity and strife among humanity where we all really work together for a common purpose. It excites me to think of what a single wealthy and focused group of humanity did in 10 short years back in the Kennedy era. America, for all it's faults, was a union of great minds and hearts and ambitions at that time and we set a goal for ourselves and in spite of actively fighting a war we , a conglomeration of minds from every country on earth, made a dream of all humanity down the ages come true. For a brief moment all of mankind exulted in the glory of what seemed a miracle. What if we finally "came to our senses" and we acknowledged the fruitlessness of scrabbling for money, power and possessions and we set out to dream together and to actually help everyone on the planet without thought of anything but loving each other? I believe that we could end hunger globally within less than a decade. Disease could be greatly reduced and better understood and pain could be nearly eliminated. These two things alone would create a burst of creativity and advances in thinking and producing unlike any other time in our history. I see advances in technologies that would transform the planet in so many ways.

So here's the point of the thread - what do YOU see happening, specifically? What kinds of changes and advances? Have fun with it and dream into reality!

Duncan

As many do I also have a hard time believing in a one man God running the whole show, but more into forces, what ever forces takes over for the better or worst.I just thank all the people that made it better for me , from the cave man that struggled to learn, to the healers, to the men, women that gave freedom, to Jesus who gave his love. but there are those out there that do not think of anyone but use the forces of religion for only self gain, power and oppression of others and there been enough of it in history.

Edited by docyabut2
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What if those people of faith, Christians Muslims or Jews as an example are correct and there IS one God and he IS about to return to set things in order? So here's the point of the thread - what do YOU see happening, specifically? What kinds of changes and advances? Have fun with it and dream into reality!

Duncan

I have mixed feelings regarding this all the time. it is like choosing heaven over hell. I always slip or fail in that choice despite I sense it is every easy for god to adjust things for individuals if they leave their will to that of gods but even the possibilty of those non believers getting shocked or hurt during that encounter is putting me off. I think there will be great majority of believers that can not easily slip into the heavenly kingdom if they are left on their own earthly mind and choice system thinking about their fellow non believers left behind or left deprived of these heavenly state.

When all changed, nothing would have changed. it is something that I have as a proof that material world wont change much. It would just go worse because many true believers will shut themselves off as well when the possibility of agony of nonbelievers increased due to that encounter.

Edited by thyra

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I can't help but to think many believers will too when they find out they've lost many freedoms.

Unless that God has a way of intoxicating His followers, 24/7. Love vibration, perhaps? Many people rebel or breakaway when they are displeased or unfulfilled.

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Unless that God has a way of intoxicating His followers, 24/7. Love vibration, perhaps? Many people rebel or breakaway when they are displeased or unfulfilled.

You think people could be displeased and unfulfilled in the presence of God unless he "intoxicated" them somehow? Wouldn't the reality of God be the intoxicating factor? What would that do to your outlook not just on life as we know it but on the nature of the Universe, the eternity of the soul etc?

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You think people could be displeased and unfulfilled in the presence of God unless he "intoxicated" them somehow? Wouldn't the reality of God be the intoxicating factor? What would that do to your outlook not just on life as we know it but on the nature of the Universe, the eternity of the soul etc?

Gradual exposure to god energy can be tolerable when done in over time and in years through self scuritiny and through individuals free will and help of god all of these combined can save you from insanity, suffering and turmoil to a greatdgree but in other case instant exposure in my opinion can occur like instant death, may cause mental break downs or may cause so much suffering. This is how I sense it. And only god knows the best ways.

Edited by thyra

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Gradual exposure to god energy can be tolerable when done in over time and in years through self scuritiny and through individuals free will and help of god all of these combined can save you from insanity, suffering and turmoil to a greatdgree but in other case instant exposure in my opinion can occur like instant death, may cause mental break downs or may cause so much suffering. This is how I sense it. And only god knows the best ways.

That's the key - we are talking about an omnipotent being who knows the best ways ;)

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The mere presence of God is intoxicating. One is filled with love presence; however, it is God, Himself, who plants the "notion" for the soul to be able to separate from Him... Just my experience.

My outlook on life is one giant research, to figure out which story fits best with this Being, and so far, the Jesus narrative is the best one. Eternity of the soul? From what I've gathered, that's a learned assumption. If soul equals "awareness" (a state of consciousness after death), then it's not eternal in the Void. "Awareness," along with memory, will eventually fade away...in the Void, "outer darkness." Existence with this "loving" Being is the only way to live and retain one's collective memory. I believe that's where Heaven comes in. On the other hand, I've never been to Heaven...

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The mere presence of God is intoxicating. One is filled with love presence; however, it is God, Himself, who plants the "notion" for the soul to be able to separate from Him... Just my experience.

My outlook on life is one giant research, to figure out which story fits best with this Being, and so far, the Jesus narrative is the best one. Eternity of the soul? From what I've gathered, that's a learned assumption. If soul equals "awareness" (a state of consciousness after death), then it's not eternal in the Void. "Awareness," along with memory, will eventually fade away...in the Void, "outer darkness." Existence with this "loving" Being is the only way to live and retain one's collective memory. I believe that's where Heaven comes in. On the other hand, I've never been to Heaven...

So few ever mention the void, nice one. :tu:

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