Discussion - muslim and atheist about God

[XenoFish]

Guess I'll see the rest of you in the abyss. I'm on Al's naughty list.

[muslimexorcism]

You never hear of a pagan protest or horrendous act committed by pagans like bombings.

Then you didn't read Prophet Muhammad's biography and how the Arab pagans treated him and his companions.

Also read this - Burma's muslims targeted by Budhhist mob violence - this is recent

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/06/27/burma-s-rohingya-muslims-targeted-by-buddhist-mob-violence.html

I'm going to sleep now....

[XenoFish]

When someone's trying to force their point of view on you then your going get a little ticked off.

Well muslim extremist have Buddhist beat.

[The Silver Thong]

When someone's trying to force their point of view on you then your going get a little ticked off.

Well muslim extremist have Buddhist beat.

At least Apostasy in the Buddhist belief and that of the majority does not get you killed. Religion of peace ya right. Islam should be treated as it is. A weapon. It's a tool to over through governments and instill sharia law and the whole time claiming religious freedom. The religion given it's source is a lie as are most others.

This gives me the right to publish and express my opinion in a secular nation.

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=adb_1357863953

Edited January 5, 2014 by The Silver Thong

[XenoFish]

The way I see it is religion is the first government. A way to keep the ignorant masses inline. Making slaves of those with a weak will. Rule by fear and divine punishment. Apparently God is flawed considering it created such sinful creatures in the first place. Screwed up creator with a screwed up creation. The devils greatest tool is religion.

[Davros of Skaro]

At least Apostasy in the Buddhist belief and that of the majority does not get you killed. Religion of peace ya right. Islam should be treated as it is. A weapon. It's a tool to over through governments and instill sharia law and the whole time claiming religious freedom. The religion given it's source is a lie as are most others.

This gives me the right to publish and express my opinion in a secular nation.

http://www.liveleak....=adb_1357863953

NICE!

[XenoFish]

The way I see it is that religion was the first government. Rule by fear and divine punishment. Something to keep the ignorant masses and weak willed under control. That was the devil's greatest creation. If you want to be worshipped why not become God. Toss in some miracles, chat up some schizophrenics, and create impossible rules to live by. Allow your people to kill in your name because it's a righteous thing to do. Pure idiocy.

[Davros of Skaro]

No problem original poster....Do what you must do.

http://ex-muslim.org.uk/

Here are some authors/writers/Journalists (the irony) etc that turned from Islam to Atheism.

Why I am not a Muslim.LOL!

[media=]

Edited January 5, 2014 by davros of skaro

[Davros of Skaro]

The way I see it is that religion was the first government. Rule by fear and divine punishment. Something to keep the ignorant masses and weak willed under control. That was the devil's greatest creation. If you want to be worshipped why not become God. Toss in some miracles, chat up some schizophrenics, and create impossible rules to live by. Allow your people to kill in your name because it's a righteous thing to do. Pure idiocy.

Just look at one the first Civilizations we know about called Sumeria.Each City State had it's own Temple to a God.People would work the Fields, and Kitchens to prepare a Sacrificial Meal.The Temple Priests would receive this bounty to present to the Statue of their God.Those Statues ate very well.

[XenoFish]

You can kill a man, but you can't kill an idea. Sometimes good idea go bad.

[Grandpa Greenman]

As a famous companion of the Prophet said: "I love death, because i want to meet my creator." Going to the doctors and trying to save your life does not go against this. As you know suicide is prohibited in Islam so surviving is a must even when life gets hard. And our Prophet taught us that for every illness there is a cure and that we should use cures so he encouraged seeking cure.

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "There is no disease that Allah has created, except that He also has created its treatment." - Sahih Bukhari

Islamic scholars also encourage us to learn medicine and it is seen as the best knowledge after islamic knowledge. Why after? Because one knowledge is for the heart and the other is for the body and having a good heart and deeds is more important than having a healthy body.

You also said: " because when he dies he suppose to goes to a better place"

We as muslims say in general that all muslims go to heaven and all disbelievers go to hell but. We do not say that anyone in specific enters heaven only those names mentioned in the Quran or hadith like the Prophets and companions. We do not enter heaven by our deeds, but we enter it by Allaah's mercy because our deeds are not the price of heaven but more a way to get Allaah's mercy. Belief in islam is belief in the heart, saying with the tongue and deeds with the limbs and it is not limited to prayer but every aspect of our life. We have no guarantee for ourselves that we're going to heaven and not be punished in the grave or hell. And as we know from islamic sources that some muslims are punished in the grave and hell for a period of time and hypocrites are also going to hell forever so we also fear hypocrisy.

So basically I can't say "I'm going to a better place that's why i want death and don't seek cure". As i understand it Christians and jews do say that they are guaranteed heaven specifically speaking, if I'm wrong correct me.

Majority is not a proof for us. If i used majority as a proof than i am mistaken in that, but I think you misunderstood me.

If there is a cure for every disease CREATED by your god then he needs to let us know what it is. I know a lot of people with Progressive Multiple Sclerosis who are little more than heads on a pillow, for which there is no cure. If your Allah created MS tell me then what is the difference between him and Satan. Where is mercy for my dear friend, a former nurse, who is unable to see, move or speak from Progressive MS. She isn't brain dead, she is there day after day locked in a living hell. You all make me sick. You can close your eyes to it, pray and say it is god's will or blame the victim as a sinner, but it doesn't change anything.

[thyra]

If there is a cure for every disease CREATED by your god then he needs to let us know what it is. I know a lot of people with Progressive Multiple Sclerosis who are little more than heads on a pillow, for which there is no cure. If your Allah created MS tell me then what is the difference between him and Satan. Where is mercy for my dear friend, a former nurse, who is unable to see, move or speak from Progressive MS. She isn't brain dead, she is there day after day locked in a living hell. You all make me sick. You can close your eyes to it, pray and say it is god's will or blame the victim as a sinner, but it doesn't change anything.

We all make you sick? and who is that we? I have had major disease so did my mother. recently my uncle is on death bed because of a terminal disease. Do I have to hate you for those as well?

Satan (meaning accuser) and God are not same. Satan is angel with certain duties until the judgement day. For some mystics it is your self which separates you from your god. Until you pass that self you cant tell what is god. you can confuse it with anything.

Non-believers when they are determined to not to believe wont believe even they are faced with miracles like healing of certain diseases or even when they are surrounded by hundred angels. There is a point when you are created with a free will it really meant something. Your accusing of others also serves to a purpose up to a point. I suggest you to go on with it if you feel that is what you are left with when facing that disease. If you are sincere with it take it to the extremes and see what happens.

Edited January 5, 2014 by thyra

[XenoFish]

We as muslims say in general that all muslims go to heaven and all disbelievers go to hell

That's a heaven I don't want to go to. That quote shows the level of racism and bigotry most religions have. The elitist mindset. I'm special and your not, so your going to a bad place forever. Same reason I gave up Christianity, no love at all in it. I'm sure there are good believes but the bad apple out weigh the bunch. I'd rather live my life looking for my own inner peace and doing good deeds just because I can, without expecting a reward after death.

Edited January 5, 2014 by XenoFish

[Davros of Skaro]

If there is a cure for every disease CREATED by your god then he needs to let us know what it is. I know a lot of people with Progressive Multiple Sclerosis who are little more than heads on a pillow, for which there is no cure. If your Allah created MS tell me then what is the difference between him and Satan. Where is mercy for my dear friend, a former nurse, who is unable to see, move or speak from Progressive MS. She isn't brain dead, she is there day after day locked in a living hell. You all make me sick. You can close your eyes to it, pray and say it is god's will or blame the victim as a sinner, but it doesn't change anything.

http://quran.com/2/6-7

Indeed, those who disbelieve - it is all the same for them whether you warn them or do not warn them - they will not believe.

Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

http://quran.com/17/82

And We send down of the Qur'an that which is healing and mercy for the believers, but it does not increase the wrongdoers except in loss.

[Grandpa Greenman]

We all make you sick? and who is that we? I have had major disease so did my mother. recently my uncle is on death bed because of a terminal disease. Do I have to hate you for those as well?

Satan (meaning accuser) and God are not same. Satan is angel with certain duties until the judgement day. For some mystics it is your self which separates you from your god. Until you pass that self you cant tell what is god. you can confuse it with anything.

Non-believers when they are determined to not to believe wont believe even they are faced with miracles like healing of certain diseases or even when they are surrounded by hundred angels. There is a point when you are created with a free will it really meant something. Your accusing of others also serves to a purpose up to a point. I suggest you to go on with it if you feel that is what you are left with when facing that disease. If you are sincere with it take it to the extremes and see what happens.

Why do you accuse me of hating. Yes, it upsets me when people don't understand and make claims that are just non sense. I don't blame the victim of diseases for their diseases. I am a Druid, a seeker of wisdom, but I see very little of it in what you say or in any other Abrahamic religion. There is no free will in Progressive MS or any other disease. My friend went to church every week, I even went with her a few times while she could still communicate and get around with a wheelchair. I was glad she found comfort in her faith. She needed it. I know a lot about the nature of MS and can give my Neurologist a run for his money. I don't even blame nature, but it can still break my heart, to see such pain and suffering. I have been in a wheelchair from MS myself and got back up and walked again. Believe me there was no magic or miracle, it was a lot of luck and hard work on my part. Had I left it to a god I don't think I would be walking. It is also the nature of the type of MS I have, relapsing remitting, to come and go. We are bio-electic machines built by nature, sometimes we break down. That is reality. Like I say. if your god can cure MS then he needs to get the job done, there are a lot of people in need of it. From the way I see it, cures come from nature and the people who put in the work on how to manipulate it and make it work.

[Davros of Skaro]

That's a heaven I don't want to go to. That quote shows the level of racism and bigotry most religions have. The elitist mindset. I'm special and your not, so your going to a bad place forever. Same reason I gave up Christianity, no love at all in it. I'm sure there are good believes but the bad apple out weigh the bunch. I'd rather live my life looking for my own inner peace and doing good deeds just because I can, without expecting a reward after death.

http://quran.com/3/151

We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down [any] authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers.

http://quran.com/9/68

Allah has promised the hypocrite men and hypocrite women and the disbelievers the fire of Hell, wherein they will abide eternally. It is sufficient for them. And Allah has cursed them, and for them is an enduring punishment.

[thyra]

Why do you accuse me of hating. Yes, it upsets me when people don't understand and make claims that are just non sense. I don't blame the victim of diseases for their diseases. I am a Druid, a seeker of wisdom, but I see very little of it in what you say or in any other Abrahamic religion. There is no free will in Progressive MS or any other disease. My friend went to church every week, I even went with her a few times while she could still communicate and get around with a wheelchair. I was glad she found comfort in her faith. She needed it. I know a lot about the nature of MS and can give my Neurologist a run for his money. I don't even blame nature, but it can still break my heart, to see such pain and suffering. I have been in a wheelchair from MS myself and got back up and walked again. Believe me there was no magic or miracle, it was a lot of luck and hard work on my part. Had I left it to a god I don't think I would be walking. It is also the nature of the type of MS I have, relapsing remitting, to come and go. We are bio-electic machines built by nature, sometimes we break down. That is reality. Like I say. if your god can cure MS then he needs to get the job done, there are a lot of people in need of it. From the way I see it, cures come from nature and the people who put in the work on how to manipulate it and make it work.

You said we make you sick and I asked how and asked if it could help if I acted the same way whenever we get sick.

Abrahamic religions which are presented through prophets who are centuries apart from each other and talking about the same god is the proof in itself that the end times are coming and there is one true god.

I am sorry but you dont sound full of wisdom either. When everything is cool and dandy it is easy to believe in a benevolent god. it is what makes it worthwhile when you can do the same when things are not so smooth. this is called faith and trust in the love and mercy of god.

PS. No, I dont accuse you. I did my accusation before and it was not related with religious differences but more on 'ethnic' differences. Thanks for the suggestion though

Edited January 5, 2014 by thyra

[Davros of Skaro]

We all make you sick? and who is that we? I have had major disease so did my mother. recently my uncle is on death bed because of a terminal disease. Do I have to hate you for those as well?

Satan (meaning accuser) and God are not same. Satan is angel with certain duties until the judgement day. For some mystics it is your self which separates you from your god. Until you pass that self you cant tell what is god. you can confuse it with anything.

Non-believers when they are determined to not to believe wont believe even they are faced with miracles like healing of certain diseases or even when they are surrounded by hundred angels. There is a point when you are created with a free will it really meant something. Your accusing of others also serves to a purpose up to a point. I suggest you to go on with it if you feel that is what you are left with when facing that disease. If you are sincere with it take it to the extremes and see what happens.

http://quran.com/4/56

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

http://quran.com/4/121

The refuge of those will be Hell, and they will not find from it an escape.

http://quran.com/9/35

The Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell and seared therewith will be their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, [it will be said], "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you used to hoard."

http://quran.com/47/15

Is the description of Paradise, which the righteous are promised, wherein are rivers of water unaltered, rivers of milk the taste of which never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey, in which they will have from all [kinds of] fruits and forgiveness from their Lord, like [that of] those who abide eternally in the Fire and are given to drink scalding water that will sever their intestines?

[thyra]

http://quran.com/4/56

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

http://quran.com/4/121

The refuge of those will be Hell, and they will not find from it an escape.

http://quran.com/9/35

The Day when it will be heated in the fire of Hell and seared therewith will be their foreheads, their flanks, and their backs, [it will be said], "This is what you hoarded for yourselves, so taste what you used to hoard."

http://quran.com/47/15

Is the description of Paradise, which the righteous are promised, wherein are rivers of water unaltered, rivers of milk the taste of which never changes, rivers of wine delicious to those who drink, and rivers of purified honey, in which they will have from all [kinds of] fruits and forgiveness from their Lord, like [that of] those who abide eternally in the Fire and are given to drink scalding water that will sever their intestines?

why do you quote me and put these underneath? I didnt say anything about hell or how I see it. you put them under my post Because I am muslim I guess? LOL. No, I dont do this anymore. I dont just go out and tell people what understand from certain verses. If you really want to understand you do, if you dont I cant do anything. Accept the face value and fear allah if this is the least you can do or for better ends go ahead and accuse god for saying such things..but dont forget to be sincere in your accusation. but %99 percent do this only for the sake of having a forum discussion thus you know my reasons why I wont get into details anymore unless I really feel like doing it. in this case sorry I couldnt get that feel.

But I think xenofish has a very good starting point. Might end up somewhere surprising.

Edited January 5, 2014 by thyra

[Grandpa Greenman]

Abrahamic religions which are presented through prophets who are centuries apart from each other and talking about the same god is the proof in itself that the end times are coming and there is one true god.

Greeks and Romans worship the same Gods and Goddesses centuries apart, is that proof they are the true Gods and Goddesses?

http://ancienthistory.about.com/od/romangods/a/022709RomanGrk.htm

As a Pagan Druid my God is Earth and the Universe. The only thing sacried is the Earth. I can pick up part of the Earth in my hand and hold her, does that prove my God is real. I would say it does. I go to Pagan riturals and no matter what path we follow we all pretty much do the same things and hold the most of same Earth based beliefs. Is that proof we are follow the one true path. Can you pick up your God and hold him in your hand?

[thyra]

Greeks and Romans worship the same Gods and Goddesses centuries apart, is that proof they are the true Gods and Goddesses?

http://ancienthistor...709RomanGrk.htm

As a Pagan Druid my God is Earth and the Universe. The only thing sacried is the Earth. I can pick up part of the Earth in my hand and hold her, does that prove my God is real. I would say it does. I go to Pagan riturals and no matter what path we follow we all pretty much do the same things and hold the most of same Earth based beliefs. Is that proof we are follow the one true path. Can you pick up your God and hold him in your hand?

All 4 major books that are send to prophets mentioned the same god. First major book was to Musa which is Torah.

well, no. I wont be discussing my spiritual experiences which involves material world and does not with you. Simply because this isnt any use to you rather than making you listen to a story that will let you enjoy or make you angry.

I also have no interest in proving my god or any god to you at the moment. But I do care about it when people begin to tell me

"You make me sick".

I dont know how your god would treat you in the end but I can see it isnt treating you well already. Because you sound real angry I feel it even from this side of the computer screen.

Edited January 5, 2014 by thyra

[XenoFish]

Allah has promised the hypocrite men and hypocrite women and the disbelievers the fire of Hell, wherein they will abide eternally. It is sufficient for them. And Allah has cursed them, and for them is an enduring punishment.

Is that somehow supposed to strike the fear of Al in my heart?

Indeed, those who disbelieve in Our verses - We will drive them into a Fire. Every time their skins are roasted through We will replace them with other skins so they may taste the punishment. Indeed, Allah is ever Exalted in Might and Wise.

Kill the non-believers, death to the infidels. We are greater than everyone else and are the only ones right, that kind of made me laugh.

I dont know how your god would treat you in the end but I can see it isnt treating you well already.

We have something called free will. We can choose to believe in whatever we chose to. Every god out there could be real or just figments of our imagination. Often our own guilt is the source of "divine" punishment. God does not harm us, god does not punish us for doubt. If anything doubt is encouraged. People can make a good idea go bad, even something a simple as self-responsibility and brotherly love. The three main religions are all about power and social control. What makes these fanatics scared is that people like myself have free will. I'm not a mind slave to them. They can kill my flesh but can not destroy my soul.

Edited January 5, 2014 by XenoFish

[thyra]

What makes these fanatics scared is that people like myself have free will. I'm not a mind slave to them. They can kill my flesh but can not destroy my soul.

That's very good you are not a mind slave to anything. But calling all these people from major religious groups as fanatics is a little prejudiced.

But from my point of you need to be comfortable with the idea of heaven and hell. This shouldnt disturb you everytime it is catching your eyes and you shouldnt be seeing half of the world as fanatics.You deserve this kind of goodness.

Fear of Allah is a very delicate topic. I love it especially. Some people read about it and right away feel that fear. Some other people read it cant feel that fear. Then they cry over it because they just cant feel that fear, they just cant and they really want to do as god asks them to! So they cry helplessly...why oh why on earth I dont feel that fear? yes, yes you were right that kind of a person is a little fanatic.. of god's love

[XenoFish]

I don't feel the fear nor do I cry over not feeling it. Could careless. Perhaps calling all of them fanatics was a bit harsh. Why should I be comfortable with the concept of heaven and hell. The way I see it is that life itself is Hell. A place of trials. Not some place of endless punishment. Either you've got the will to overcome the world or you don't. The devil can be seen as our jailer. The one who keeps us blind and enslaved by the world. After you die you either get something or there's nothing. No one truly knows. Hell I've died once before and it was peaceful. Since you'd be nothing more than a body less consciousness then eternal punishment in pointless. Another way of viewing the afterlife is that we either create our own heaven or hell. This is my idea of what the afterlife is and it's also a good movie. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Dreams_May_Come_(film)

[muslimexorcism]

If there is a cure for every disease CREATED by your god then he needs to let us know what it is. I know a lot of people with Progressive Multiple Sclerosis who are little more than heads on a pillow, for which there is no cure. If your Allah created MS tell me then what is the difference between him and Satan. Where is mercy for my dear friend, a former nurse, who is unable to see, move or speak from Progressive MS. She isn't brain dead, she is there day after day locked in a living hell. You all make me sick. You can close your eyes to it, pray and say it is god's will or blame the victim as a sinner, but it doesn't change anything.

For every disease there is a cure, if we haven't found it yet that doesn't mean it doesn't exist. We as humans have to work harder to find it. People complain about the bad things in Life, but they forget that Allaah owns us and he gave us everything including life itsself and if he takes one thing away from us than it's his to take in the first place. So he can take and give what he wants. And he can test the people in whatever way he wants. There is no injustice in his doing but weakness in your faith. Just start counting the things Allaah gave you including the mouth and heart and limbs you choose to disbelieve him with. You should be happy with the patience Allaah is having with you and the rest of mankind including muslims. How many people have disbelieved in him and sinned and even so he let's them live and laugh and play and be. You are not giving him his right wich is to worship him alone but you do complain and disbelieve when he takes something beloved to you wich was his in the first place...

When someone dies we as muslims say: " inna lillaah wa innaa ilayhi radzji'oon " - " we are from Allaah and to him we return"

All the Prophets and their followers are excellent examples of patience. Some were orphans. Some were rejected and killed by their people. Some were tortured. Some of them had parents or children that were pagans. All of them were mocked and called madman and liars. Their followers were beaten up and tortured and killed. Almost all of Prophet Muhammad's children died at young age. Etc. Etc. I could name a list of the things that happened to the Prophet Muhammad including him being an orphan, Arabs throwing the insides of a camel on his head while he was praying, children hitting him with stones, boycotting him and more. Every Prophet is an example of patience.

Prophet Ayyub (job) is an excellent example of patience in times of sickness and losing wealth and being lonely.

None of them lost their faith.

Quran Surah al-Baqarah - 2: 155

"And We will surely test you with something of fear and hunger and a loss of wealth and lives and fruits, but give good tidings to the patient,"

We as muslims have a completely different view on hardship in life:

Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri and Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "No fatigue, nor disease, nor sorrow, nor sadness, nor hurt, nor distress befalls a Muslim, even if it were the prick he receives from a thorn, but that Allah expiates some of his sins for that."  - Sahih Bukhari

 

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "If Allah wants to do good to somebody, He afflicts him with trials."  - Sahih Bukhari

Narrated Anas bin Malik: I heard Allah's Apostle saying, "Allah said, 'If I deprive my slave of his two beloved things (i.e., his eyes) and he remains patient, I will let him enter Paradise in compensation for them.'" Sahih Bukhari

P.s.

( In the topic about Jinn i opened I posted a video of a muslim exorcist with a jewish Psychiatrist who was observing the way he did exorcism and the muslim girl said she had MS as her doctors told her and they gave her steroids as treatment wich didn't help and after the Quranic treatment she felt better )

Ruqyah session attended by a non-muslim (from a jewish faith) professor in psychiatry. See video for more information.

Ruqyah