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telepathy

theory about humans

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Posted (edited)

if humans consist of body and spirit

the real human is the spirit

the body is just a machine that the spirit drive just like human drive a car

then what if not all human bodies are controlled by human spirits but by spirits from other kind

i am not talking here about humans been possessed no i am talking about an empty body with a spirit other than human where there is no human spirit at all inside this body

in this case the human body is just a common thing between human spirits and other spirits

now what if all what we are living is a lie

i mean the other spirits are taking control of every thing in our life and they tell us how to think and what to believe

and thats why we suffer because we live a life against our nature

what if we are not suppose to be inside this "human" bodies but as i said we are inside of it as a common interface between us and the other spirits

maybe thats why we can't remember any thing about our past lifes before we become "humans" because we are slaves captured by this other beings they put us in t his bodies and told us the stories we know today about where we come from and what will happen next

because we can free ourselves if we know what we can do

remember jesus said you can do what he did and more if you believe

what do you think?

Edited by telepathy
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Posted (edited)

You mean like ascended masters sort of things? if it is possible some spirits can go down the certain levels of existence only because that part of existence is part of their own spirit and you wouldnt tell the difference as the lower form if you are visited or not.(but i am not sure in some cases perhaps there can be some technical issues relating brain synchronicity) They also cant have any intention of hurting you because your spirit is their spirit. Lower layers of existence mean vacation for higher level dwellers, i guess :) like swiming and resting in sea of anas.

Edited by thyra

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with the believe and being able to do the things that jesus did, i dont think he meant if you can believe it, you can do anything. if you have faith as a christian you can do anything, faith even as small as a mustard seed. if your intentions are to further the kingdom of god and glorify jesus then you could do any thing, if your intentions are to glorify your self then you dont have faith in jesus.

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Posted (edited)

Hi,

There are those that teach that the human is an integration of Mind(universal awareness), Body(physical form), and Spirit(energetic essence). That we refine our overall Self through a blending of our higher aspects of self with those that express in this lower physical form.

I would like to think we evolve with a purpose in mind.

John

Edited by John from Lowell

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There is a widely held idea that when we die our life spirit goes into the womb of a woman and becomes a parasite on the embryo, the combination making a new human being. We call this reincarnation although rebirth is more accurate.

This implies a sort-of dual existence of physical body and life spirit or mind, with all the philosophical problems the same implication for the West in its body/soul duality. There is however a difference in the way the life spirit is seen as opposed to the way the soul is seen. The soul is a spiritual entity capable of living on its own in the spirit worlds, a life spirit is a process, not a thing, and is what generates sentience and intelligence out of brain activity.

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what do you think?

If that was the case, things like tumors and imbalances of brain chemistry wouldn't have such an effect.

Yet the brain's hemispheres can be separated so that each hemisphere acts independently of the other.

It seems much more likely that the brain and mind are a singular thing and not separate.

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If that was the case, things like tumors and imbalances of brain chemistry wouldn't have such an effect.

Yet the brain's hemispheres can be separated so that each hemisphere acts independently of the other.

It seems much more likely that the brain and mind are a singular thing and not separate.

It's hard to imagine sentience in electrochemical processes. I suppose it is not impossible but no one has yet proposed a mechanism. It seems to me all that we can really say is that mind depends on brain, but not necessarily that mind is brain.

By the way, I think you overstate the brain half separation effects a little. They appear to have the ability to act on their own when lacking communication with the other half, but only with information it happens to have. A coordinated action requires both halves.

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It's hard to imagine sentience in electrochemical processes. I suppose it is not impossible but no one has yet proposed a mechanism. It seems to me all that we can really say is that mind depends on brain, but not necessarily that mind is brain.

I'd question if we really have sentience, certainly neuroscience tends to harm our ideas of free will and self determination.

By the way, I think you overstate the brain half separation effects a little. They appear to have the ability to act on their own when lacking communication with the other half, but only with information it happens to have. A coordinated action requires both halves.

Well, yes. Each brain is working independently of each other. And yes, a coordinated action requires both halves, but both halves otherwise operate independently of each other.

If duality was true, we'd expect that damage to the brain would little to affect a personality and consciousness. But we see it does, very heavily. It is possible to damage or be born without the ability to feel empathize or feel emotions for example.

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Posted (edited)

If that was the case, things like tumors and imbalances of brain chemistry wouldn't have such an effect.

Yet the brain's hemispheres can be separated so that each hemisphere acts independently of the other.

It seems much more likely that the brain and mind are a singular thing and not separate.

Actually things like tumers or other alterations woukd indeed affect the mind as the brain is viewed as a receiver. Much like a radio or television. Your examples would be true if the brain produced consciousness or received it. Then throw in a large mix of other circumstances and the brain as a producer of consciousness with a physicalist interpretation starts to seem less likely.

Edited by White Crane Feather

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I'd question if we really have sentience, certainly neuroscience tends to harm our ideas of free will and self determination.

But we see it does, very heavily. It is possible to damage or be born without the ability to feel empathize or feel emotions for example.

How so?

Who's said mind has anything to do with emotion. By your own example consciousness is not dependent in the ability to have emotions or empathy. These are clearly ego driven concepts.

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How so?

Who's said mind has anything to do with emotion. By your own example consciousness is not dependent in the ability to have emotions or empathy. These are clearly ego driven concepts.

Lacking emotions people are unable to make decisions, and effectively have no personality.

With the evidence we have, a much simpler and parsimonious explanation is that consciousness resides in the brain, which while not fully understood is understood well enough to have good explanations for the little claimed phenomena that exists counter to it.

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With the evidence that mind depends largely on brain is not enough in my mind for you to make such a sweeping conclusion. Concepts like free will and sentience and intelligence cannot be dismissed as illusions unless one has some theory of the source and cause of the illusion. The "simple" explanation to my mind is to accept them at face value and admit that mind is not understood and that no matter how well we understand brain we have no concept how to even approach the issue.

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With the evidence that mind depends largely on brain is not enough in my mind for you to make such a sweeping conclusion. Concepts like free will and sentience and intelligence cannot be dismissed as illusions unless one has some theory of the source and cause of the illusion. The "simple" explanation to my mind is to accept them at face value and admit that mind is not understood and that no matter how well we understand brain we have no concept how to even approach the issue.

Actually the illusion of free will from what I understand has been written about extensively.

As for the claims of brain and mind, the extra ordinary claim is that minds reside outside the brain, and so far the evidence for this claim has been less than extraordinary, while regular studies have produced results that don't require the assumption of a spirit in order to make sense.

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Actually the illusion of free will from what I understand has been written about extensively.

As for the claims of brain and mind, the extra ordinary claim is that minds reside outside the brain, and so far the evidence for this claim has been less than extraordinary, while regular studies have produced results that don't require the assumption of a spirit in order to make sense.

No I tend to think mind is a process of brain comparable to sound being a process of air molecules. To be sure free will has been written about extensively -- all of this has -- but none of it is accepted science or philosophy. It is quite in the air.
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No I tend to think mind is a process of brain comparable to sound being a process of air molecules. To be sure free will has been written about extensively -- all of this has -- but none of it is accepted science or philosophy. It is quite in the air.

The idea of libertarian free will, that exists apart from your situation, your culture, your mental abilities, has been debunked.

There are some restricted ideas of free will still conceivable, bu even hose have problems.

I don't get your analogy.

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I would say most of the time we do what our personality and culture and so on calls for, without giving it any thought, and this is not free will. That is no demonstration if we present ourselves with choices that we can't break what is normal. (Of course it might be argued that our breaking normal will -- taking a whim -- was determined too -- and that is an infinite regression and hardly a scientific argument).

Because someone claims something has be debunked is just their opinion. The alternative view of determinism has just as many logical and philosophical difficulties.

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I would say most of the time we do what our personality and culture and so on calls for, without giving it any thought, and this is not free will. That is no demonstration if we present ourselves with choices that we can't break what is normal. (Of course it might be argued that our breaking normal will -- taking a whim -- was determined too -- and that is an infinite regression and hardly a scientific argument).

Because someone claims something has be debunked is just their opinion. The alternative view of determinism has just as many logical and philosophical difficulties.

Well, the claim it has been debunked has some fairly good grounding. An example is the recent study that was published that demonstrated that your political affiliation (in regards to conservativeness versus liberalism) has a genetic component.

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Lacking emotions people are unable to make decisions, and effectively have no personality.

With the evidence we have, a much simpler and parsimonious explanation is that consciousness resides in the brain, which while not fully understood is understood well enough to have good explanations for the little claimed phenomena that exists counter to it.

The evidence you have equally supports the null. That's not evidence. That's called confirmation bias. The cheap explanation may not be as cheap as you think it is and in the end requires just as many new entities. There is solid physiological evidence and circumstances to suggest that consciousness isn't what a determinist thinks it is. Logically and empirically you cannot escape from simple deduction.

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The idea of libertarian free will, that exists apart from your situation, your culture, your mental abilities, has been debunked.

There are some restricted ideas of free will still conceivable, bu even hose have problems.

I don't get your analogy.

That's why no one is ever able to break from their culture, situations, and circumstances I take it? ;)

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The evidence you have equally supports the null. That's not evidence. That's called confirmation bias. The cheap explanation may not be as cheap as you think it is and in the end requires just as many new entities. There is solid physiological evidence and circumstances to suggest that consciousness isn't what a determinist thinks it is. Logically and empirically you cannot escape from simple deduction.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is no good reproducible study or experiment demonstrating anything like a soul or an out of body experiment. Just claims.

That's why no one is ever able to break from their culture, situations, and circumstances I take it? ;)

Ever? No. But it's not exactly common is it?

Even in cases where people do change, here's a high rate of recidivism with time.

Edited by ShadowSot

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Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and there is no good reproducible study or experiment demonstrating anything like a soul or an out of body experiment. Just claims.

Ever? No. But it's not exactly common is it?

Even in cases where people do change, here's a high rate of recidivism with time.

I doesn't matter how many. All it takes is one and the theory is bunk. You should read Carl Jung's "the undiscovered self". These soft statistical correlations in many study's like this are many times simply nonsense. You are talking to guy that used to tutor econometrics. Without knowing remotely how the study was conducted (because no one cited it) , I can tell you right now that If they were not studying children that are twins separated at birth where one stays with the genetic parents and one dies not, then it's not even worth looking because it would lack controls. It's just a hunch, but I'm willing the bet if they got that far their sample size would be pitifully small to take it seriously.

No see, you are already doing it. You are assuming your own conclusions. There are many very good reproducible STUDY'S. and on going experiments. It's a matter of opinion what actually is the extraordinary claim and what isn't. You are also severely limiting what is actual evidence and reasonable thinking in regards to it. I made up a word for this sort of fundamentalism. I call it empirinaziism. :D

There are some very extreme circumstances very much based in actual physiology that show is that certain cognitive abilities and memory can and do exist independent of brain function. Would you like me to explain?

Edited by White Crane Feather

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I doesn't matter how many. All it takes is one and the theory is bunk. You should read Carl Jung's "the undiscovered self". These soft statistical correlations in many study's like this are many times simply nonsense. You are talking to guy that used to tutor econometrics. Without knowing remotely how the study was conducted (because no one cited it) , I can tell you right now that If they were not studying children that are twins separated at birth where one stays with the genetic parents and one dies not, then it's not even worth looking because it would lack controls. It's just a hunch, but I'm willing the bet if they got that far their sample size would be pitifully small to take it seriously.

In this study they compared fraternal and identical twins. Not twins separated at birth.

No see, you are already doing it. You are assuming your own conclusions. There are many very good reproducible STUDY'S. and on going experiments. It's a matter of opinion what actually is the extraordinary claim and what isn't. You are also severely limiting what is actual evidence and reasonable thinking in regards to it. I made up a word for this sort of fundamentalism. I call it empirinaziism.

I've asked you before for these studies, you sent me to a website that quoted fantastic claims with little supporting evidence.

Each time these claims end up tested, especially when it's tested with someone who is familiar with common trickery, these claims fall apart. There is a reason Randi's Million dollar prize is still secured.

There are some very extreme circumstances very much based in actual physiology that show is that certain cognitive abilities and memory can and do exist independent of brain function. Would you like me to explain?

COuld you provide an actual, replicated study published in a respected, peer reviewed journal?

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In this study they compared fraternal and identical twins. Not twins separated at birth.

I've asked you before for these studies, you sent me to a website that quoted fantastic claims with little supporting evidence.

Each time these claims end up tested, especially when it's tested with someone who is familiar with common trickery, these claims fall apart. There is a reason Randi's Million dollar prize is still secured.

COuld you provide an actual, replicated study published in a respected, peer reviewed journal?

Were they at least separated from their genetic parents? Was the correlation positive or negative? Simple life experience tells me that there are very strong incentives and occurrences of kids having strong negative reactions to their parents beliefs. Many of our skeptics on UM are products of just that. I'm at a loss to imagine how they the controlled for parental and family influences to arrive any sort of real significance. Anyway. I think the whole idea of it being used as part of an argument against the existence of free will to be a stretch of stretches.

I don't remember that conversation. I have to many of them I think. Oh dear. Are we back to Randi? We are not talking about magic tricks. We are talking about the seat of consciousness.

I don't have the study's in front of me, but I'm sure you won't disagree that doctors are very thorough in their study of brain function. Im sure you are capable of looking up the facts that there are many parts of the brain involved with cognitive abilities like memory, having conversations, recognizing relationships or even producing hallucinations etc etc.... Detailed ( even gruesome ) experiments on animals and ( not so gruesome on people) have time and time again shown us this.

As it turns out below certain blood pressure levels the parts of the brain needed to have any kind of real cognitive function simply CANNOT happen from a purely physiological stand point.

It always comes back to the NDE because extreme circumstances offer the necessary controls that are unethical to reproduce.

As it turns out there are thousands and thousands if not more of incidences where people describe what's happening to them in great detail and corroborated by doctors ( sometimes even experienced by them ) when it's completely impossible for brain based cognitive functions to be working. While its not ethical to reproduce the circumstances artificially, we do know that they continue to happen, and researchers doing real science are right there to interview them and yes.. The same set of circumstances continue to repeat. That's as close to reproducible that you are going to get ethically. Empirnazies want a nether rock ( spirit rock) to be convinced. Fortunately that's not the way real research is conducted. Study, Deduction, statistical significance, controls and repetition, then theorization and prediction. As it turns out a theory of consciousness separate from the brain actually fit the facts much better. In fact, the leading physicalist theory on NDEs ...the dying brain hypothesis utterly falls apart when one understands that the cognitive ability to even have a complex hallucination is gone nearly instantly upon cardiac arrest. They could possibly change the name to the recovering brain hypothesis, but now we are dealing with a different animal.

Some reading

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/0521847001/ref=redir_mdp_mobile?redirect=true&ref_=s9_simz_gw_s1_p14_i1

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/Comfort_for_the_dying_PDF_article.pdf

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/sdarticlegreyson.pdf

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/medhypothesis.pdf

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/parnspearfenwresuc.pdf

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/resusrv.pdf

http://www.horizonresearch.org/Uploads/quantqual.pdf

Edited by White Crane Feather

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