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muslimexorcism

Sceptic and Believer opinion on Antony Flew

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I want atheist and religious opinions on Antony Flew, what do you think of the Guy and have you read his book or books?

If you don't know who he is:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Flew

I think the last book he wrote was:

There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind (2007) with Roy Abraham Varghese

Please everybody try to speak and discuss only about the man himself and his beliefs.

Don't know much about the guy. I was recently listening to a long debate in Arabic between a muslim and an Atheist on television (with Fadel Soliman as host) and I heared about him there.

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I don't care much. The reasons he converted are in my opinion pretty flimsy and have been tossed around in skeptic/atheist circles for awhile now. I only became aware of him following his conversion and it is my understanding that previously he did not find the reason he stated convincing either.

I note that the reasons that convinced him were not in his area of expertise, and many of the people whose expertise is in those fields (origin of life, the universe, ect.) do not find them convincing.

Even so, I don't have a good deal of issue with the Deistic god concept as it doesn't propose a deity that actively influences the world we exist in. One of my favorite mathematicians and writers, Martin Gardner, was a deist. He was very candid that he had no valid reason for his belief, but still felt it was true. On the other hand I don't find the arguments for it to be convincing either.

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Just because some Atheist Philosopher turns to Deism, does not make any one of the many Theistic beliefs true.

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Just because some Atheist Philosopher turns to Deism, does not make any one of the many Theistic beliefs true.

The thing that gets me is this "most Notorious." I keep a toe in a lot of the atheist and skeptical circles, and even in England where he's based a number of people upon hearing the news were wanting to know who he was.

Not saying that he wasn't famous, but it seems people are much more familiar with the infamous Four Horseman than he.

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Posted (edited)

"I'm thinking of a God very different from the God of the Christian and far and away from the God of Islam, because both are depicted as omnipotent Oriental despots, cosmic Saddam Husseins" - Antony Flew

http://www.sciencefindsgod.com/famous-atheist-now-believes-in-god.htm

Edited by Rlyeh
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The thing that gets me is this "most Notorious." I keep a toe in a lot of the atheist and skeptical circles, and even in England where he's based a number of people upon hearing the news were wanting to know who he was.

Not saying that he wasn't famous, but it seems people are much more familiar with the infamous Four Horseman than he.

I heard the name, but I did not know untill this thread that he came up with the "no true scotsman fallacy".

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Weirdly I never get asked what my opinion is of someone who's given up on faith and become an atheist.

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Posted (edited)

This has come up before on this forum and his change of heart is very suspect ,there was an article in the New York Times about the book(titled There is a God) written in collaboration with Roy Abraham Varghese which was alleged was written more by him than Flew ,at a time when Flew's mental powers were in decline

"Shortly after the book was released, the New York Times published an article by religious historian Mark Oppenheimer, who stated that Varghese had been almost entirely responsible for writing the book, and that Flew was in a serious state of mental decline, having great difficulty remembering key figures, ideas, and events relating to the debate covered in the book.[7] His book praises several philosophers (like Brian Leftow, John Leslie and Paul Davies), but Flew failed to remember their work during Oppenheimer's interview"

that was a direct quote from the interview

all in all his "conversion is very suspect One critic of the book said, “Far from strengthening the case for the existence of God, [the book] rather weakens the case for the existence of Antony Flew.”"

fullywired

Edited by fullywired

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Just because some Atheist Philosopher turns to Deism, does not make any one of the many Theistic beliefs true.

I agree that his believing in a God is not to be used as proof for any religion and likewise some unknown non scholarly not famous in the Arabic Muslim world muslims leaving islam can not be used as proof. Most if not all of the muslim apostates fall under the description I mentioned, but the western media still uses them as a trophy and proof.

Weirdly I never get asked what my opinion is of someone who's given up on faith and become an atheist.

I have just been on this forum for a couple of weeks I think, so saying never is a little far-fatched. And I don't really know any respected and famous muslim scholar whom I look up to leaving faith. I'm not saying Antony Flew was at the level of Richard Dawkins in Atheism but the guy was known if not famous and an Atheist for most of his life.

I'm just asking a simple question. I'm not using him as proof or as a trophy as everybody knows he didn't like Islam very much. But we as muslims do become happy when someone (influential) becomes a Muslim.

By these two posts I can see that Atheists react the same way as religious people when someone leaves their way of life.

According to Wikipedia (references are mentioned there if they're true) Antony Flew said:

“I have been denounced by my fellow unbelievers for stupidity, betrayal, senility and everything you can think of and none of them have read a word that I have ever written”

And about the book he said:

Flew released a statement through his publisher stating:

"My name is on the book and it represents exactly my opinions. I would not have a book issued in my name that I do not 100 percent agree with. I needed someone to do the actual writing because I’m 84 and that was Roy Varghese’s role. This is my book and it represents my thinking."

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By these two posts I can see that Atheists react the same way as religious people when someone leaves their way of life.

No offense, but Islam has a very definite statement of how to handle apostates. I don't see death threats having been made against Flew.

According to Wikipedia (references are mentioned there if they're true) Antony Flew said:

“I have been denounced by my fellow unbelievers for stupidity, betrayal, senility and everything you can think of and none of them have read a word that I have ever written”

And about the book he said:

Flew released a statement through his publisher stating:

"My name is on the book and it represents exactly my opinions. I would not have a book issued in my name that I do not 100 percent agree with. I needed someone to do the actual writing because I’m 84 and that was Roy Varghese’s role. This is my book and it represents my thinking."

As I mentioned, he had earlier dismissed these claims as unconvincing and are generally regarded as unconvincing by others, especially to those whom field this pertains to. He was a philosopher, not a scientist.

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I'm just asking a simple question. I'm not using him as proof or as a trophy as everybody knows he didn't like Islam very much. But we as muslims do become happy when someone (influential) becomes a Muslim.

But when they leave, do they lose their head?

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But when they leave, do they lose their head?

If he is judged by the government in a courtroom to have his head cut off after they ask him to repent from his deed and he refuses then yes they do lose their head. As for individuals or groups performing capital punishment or taking law in their own hands then this is not allowed as it will create chaos. So basically in all non-muslim countries and most muslim countries people can leave islam, but they should fear ignorant people taking the law in their own hands.

There's still imprisonment for life on treason in the UK and they used to hang them and after haging them behead them not long ago

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1998/37/section/36

What are the laws on treason?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/magazine/7288516.stm

Leaving Islam is similair to Treason for us and you can clearly see that most apostates do commit treason as they become preachers against islam and muslim countries and are used as trophies by western media. Do you now also want us to jail them for life like the UK?

Let's stay on topic please, I already know that most people find our punishments barbaric.

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If he is judged by the government in a courtroom to have his head cut off after they ask him to repent from his deed and he refuses then yes they do lose their head. As for individuals or groups performing capital punishment or taking law in their own hands then this is not allowed as it will create chaos. So basically in all non-muslim countries and most muslim countries people can leave islam, but they should fear ignorant people taking the law in their own hands.

Yes, we know. If a Muslim country deems his crime of leaving the religion valid they execute him. We are aware. He got called names by atheists when going to deism. That doesn't really compare.

Let's stay on topic please, I already know that most people find our punishments barbaric.

Well you were the one making the comparison. And yes, cutting a woman's nose of or splashing her with acid or stoning her are just a bit barbaric. There is a reason I won't visit any country under Muslim majority as I have a good risk of being killed by one of you lot.

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I already know that most people find our punishments barbaric.

As they are.

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Leaving Islam is similair to Treason for us and you can clearly see that most apostates do commit treason as they become preachers against islam and muslim countries and are used as trophies by western media.

Is it treason when a Christian converts to Islam?
Do you now also want us to jail them for life like the UK?
The UK doesn't jail people for leaving Islam.
Let's stay on topic please, I already know that most people find our punishments barbaric.

You realise you brought up religious conversion?

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If he is judged by the government in a courtroom to have his head cut off after they ask him to repent from his deed and he refuses then yes they do lose their head. As for individuals or groups performing capital punishment or taking law in their own hands then this is not allowed as it will create chaos. So basically in all non-muslim countries and most muslim countries people can leave islam, but they should fear ignorant people taking the law in their own hands.

There's still imprisonment for life on treason in the UK and they used to hang them and after haging them behead them not long ago

http://www.legislati...8/37/section/36

What are the laws on treason?

http://news.bbc.co.u...ine/7288516.stm

Leaving Islam is similair to Treason for us

Perhaps I missed that detail somewhere but please specify better to indicate what you mean by "us". If there is no specification you can use then just say "me" or according to "me" Not all muslims consider that as a treason or anything. There are also countries with secular governments with majority of their population as muslims who really dont keep the track of their residents religions for individual evaluations. Thanks and have a lovely thought exchange.

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Well you were the one making the comparison. And yes, cutting a woman's nose of or splashing her with acid or stoning her are just a bit barbaric. There is a reason I won't visit any country under Muslim majority as I have a good risk of being killed by one of you lot.

I was not answering you I was answering Riyeh. By you only mentioning women shows how the western media has indoctrinated and fooled you as these punishments are for men and women alike if that makes you feel any better and I don't know of any punishment from authentic islamic sources that says to cut noses off or throw acid.

I think every country has a punishment for treason and leaving islam is treason for us and the attitude of muslim apostates in western media proves that it is treason.

Treason against the United States

http://www.nytimes.com/1861/01/25/news/treason-against-the-united-states.html

Thousands of people visit my country Morocco from different countries including france and the US and they have no problem whatsoever, they mostly praise our hospitality. Watch on YT: "travel trip 2 morocco". non muslim People also visit Sharia ruled countries like Saudi Arabia and some have lived there and worked there for a long time and have not had any problems. I don't advise you to go If you are planning to break the laws of those countries. You are not welcome if you do not feel welcome. Being afraid of getting killed in muslim countries shows that you are mentally weak and a victim of brainwashing.

I brought up religious conversion and that Atheists have the same attitude as religious people in general in people leaving their way of life but I didn't start talking about capital punishments in islam specifically but you people did so I felt I had to clarify that.

But it seems we can't even have a normal discussion on a man leaving Atheist for deism without people wanting to enter into other subjects.

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I was not answering you I was answering Riyeh. By you only mentioning women shows how the western media has indoctrinated and fooled you as these punishments are for men and women alike if that makes you feel any better and I don't know of any punishment from authentic islamic sources that says to cut noses off or throw acid.

No, tis doesn't make me feel better. it just doubles the horrible.

I think every country has a punishment for treason and leaving islam is treason for us and the attitude of muslim apostates in western media proves that it is treason.

Christians don't try to behead ex-Christians. Well, not anymore anyway.

And a religion is not a country.

Thousands of people visit my country Morocco from different countries including france and the US and they have no problem whatsoever, they mostly praise our hospitality. Watch on YT: "travel trip 2 morocco". non muslim People also visit Sharia ruled countries like Saudi Arabia and some have lived there and worked there for a long time and have not had any problems. I don't advise you to go If you are planning to break the laws of those countries. You are not welcome if you do not feel welcome. Being afraid of getting killed in muslim countries shows that you are mentally weak and a victim of brainwashing.

Lol.

I helped moove atheists out of Saudi Arabia. Stick it.

I brought up religious conversion and that Atheists have the same attitude as religious people in general in people leaving their way of life but I didn't start talking about capital punishments in islam specifically but you people did so I felt I had to clarify that.

Well your religion has a clear handling of apostates, so it's relevant.

And "well it happens to both genders..." well, that's fantastic.

But it seems we can't even have a normal discussion on a man leaving Atheist for deism without people wanting to enter into other subjects.

Because there's really not much to say. My ultimate response is, so what.

His reasons are weak, he used to also agree they were weak.

You drew the comparison to religion and Islam and that's a much more interesting conversation.

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Perhaps I missed that detail somewhere but please specify better to indicate what you mean by "us".

He was speaking about Islam in general and it is known in the history of Islam that they used to perform these kind of punishments (the amount of wich I don't know) so I used the term us to include all those who see this as being a valid punishment for treason.

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And a religion is not a country.

If a country is based on a religion then yes commiting treason against the religion is commiting treason against the country.

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If a country is based on a religion then yes commiting treason against the religion is commiting treason against the country.

I note Britain is still a Christian Country and the religious right believe the US is a Christian country. Yet if someone reconverts and changes religion, they are not executed.

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If you are an Atheist than you have no right to tell us what we are doing is wrong. Why? Because you believe that right and wrong actually don't exist and you believe in Democracy and according to democracy the majority rules, so if the majority says we must have capital punishment for treason than we do and the majority in some muslim countries sees it as a valid punishment so we have capital punishment for clear treason in some muslim countries.

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I note Britain is still a Christian Country and the religious right believe the US is a Christian country. Yet if someone reconverts and changes religion, they are not executed.

Yes I know but even the UK differs with the US as what treason really is, so why do you expect us to follow differing positions of other countries in the definition of Treason. For me and countries like Saudi Arabia and some other countries treason is leaving islam and again many of the ex-muslims prove they have commited clear treason. As you said you helped people escape Saudi Arabia and I don't think they wanted to leave the country they were brought up in except for treason. They can live normal lives if they don't betray the country. The UK as i remember sees people going to afghanistan to go fight WITH the taliban as treason and I don't think the US differs with them in that. Likewise if an ex-muslim leaves his country and starts attacking islam and muslim countries on western media then this is clear treason.

Also most western countries are based on Democracy so they are not based on religion even if the majority are christian. And as i understood it christians believe that "leave unto ceasar etc." basically seperation of rule and religion as for the Jews than i think they don't believe in seperation of rule and religion but they should talk for themselves.

Edited by muslimexorcism

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If you are an Atheist than you have no right to tell us what we are doing is wrong. Why? Because you believe that right and wrong actually don't exist and you believe in Democracy and according to democracy the majority rules, so if the majority says we must have capital punishment for treason than we do and the majority in some muslim countries sees it as a valid punishment so we have capital punishment for clear treason in some muslim countries.

Okay, so is it safe to say that you have abandoned what you just said a couple posts ago, "But it seems we can't even have a normal discussion on a man leaving Atheist for deism without people wanting to enter into other subjects.", since your post above clearly is an entry into another subject?

I'm an atheist and I think right and wrong 'exist', I just don't think they are what you think they are. I think they are ultimately subjective and relative, and I'd guess you think they are objective. I have no idea why you are bringing up democracy at all, not even close to all atheists live in democratic countries and not all atheists 'believe in Democracy'.

To your OP, I pretty much agree with what has been said about Flew, what he believes is pretty much irrelevant except to note that some atheists change their mind and become theists and they also get criticized. Atheism and theism are not made more valid by who believes in them as there are no experts on gods, only religions.

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Christians, and their talking Heads say America is a Christian Nation, but the truth is it's a secular nation.If someone was giving away classified secrets, then yes that falls under treason.Thank you for showing that Islam at it's core is a Political movement.

Edit;Just to clarify.America has freedom of Religion, or nonReligion, but the constitution gives freedom from Religion.There were things Religion wise to unite America from Communism, but freedom rings.

Edited by davros of skaro

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