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RavenHawk

What does the Quran tell Muslims

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Evidently some people took exception to an academic look at certain aspects (sin) to Islam I posted a week or so ago (which did not violate TOS). They thought it was *too* hostile. Well, I would agree. But only to non believers and as a non believer, I felt I had the right to relay that point of view. It was definitely critical of Islam but that is not hostile. OK fine, so I will approach this in a different light. I want to know exactly what you (as a Muslim) believe in what the Quran tells you how to treat the non believer. We can get into an exchange of ayahs, but don’t go there as I will use abrogation to discredit your example. I will certainly accept ayahs that support your view just don’t base your view solely on a few ayahs (i.e don’t be a robot – put it in your own words). What is the hierarchy of humanity (i.e. dar al-Islam vs dar al-Harb)? Also, what is the definition of Dhimmi that you understand? Are there other meanings? All I seek is an honest answer and I will accept your silence as such. I see nothing hostile in this simple question.

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Posted (edited)

Evidently some people took exception to an academic look at certain aspects (sin) to Islam I posted a week or so ago (which did not violate TOS). They thought it was *too* hostile. Well, I would agree. But only to non believers and as a non believer, I felt I had the right to relay that point of view. It was definitely critical of Islam but that is not hostile. OK fine, so I will approach this in a different light. I want to know exactly what you (as a Muslim) believe in what the Quran tells you how to treat the non believer. We can get into an exchange of ayahs, but don't go there as I will use abrogation to discredit your example. I will certainly accept ayahs that support your view just don't base your view solely on a few ayahs (i.e don't be a robot – put it in your own words). What is the hierarchy of humanity (i.e. dar al-Islam vs dar al-Harb)? Also, what is the definition of Dhimmi that you understand? Are there other meanings? All I seek is an honest answer and I will accept your silence as such. I see nothing hostile in this simple question.

when you get really involved in religion or spirituality it makes you turn inward. You hardly begin to pay attention to what is outside and you do it only when you have to. Like when somebody comes and asks you "I am not muslim, what do you think about it?" :) Language of Quran is a bit harsh. I mean when you read it at the face value you right away begin to think "oh god, what should I do with myself?" so when somebody comes and asks a muslim in such a dawn "I am not a muslim what do you think?" he may get an answer "neither am I, what do you think we can do bro?"

Sorry, no ayahs.will add later perhaps

Edited by thyra

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Since you are approaching this in an argumentative way and from the perspective of a skeptic and not as one posting YOUR particular beliefs, I'd suggest that you are posting your questions/challenges in the wrong section.

One could ask that you post your own point of view concerning scripture (instead of the Koran) and similarly folks could cherry pick verses from the bible that directly contradict your personal perspective or beliefs. If you want to invite an argument regarding another's beliefs versus your own--- there's an app for that (Skeptics Section).

No?

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when you get really involved in religion or spirituality it makes you turn inward.

Agreed.

You hardly begin to pay attention to what is outside and you do it only when you have to.

I tend to look both inwardly and outwardly. That doesn’t mean I see everything. But I do expect everyone else to do so too. I realize that is not the case. That is my shortsightedness but that is the standard I expect.

Like when somebody comes and asks you "I am not muslim, what do you think about it?" :)

Then I’d ask what they are then??

Language of Quran is a bit harsh.

Yes, it is harsh. It is harsh because the people it is for are harsh. The lifestyle is harsh. The environment is harsh. That is why when you do read the Quran you must read it with a harsh mindset. This is why it is absurd to call Islam “The Religion of Peace”. What does “peace” mean in such a surrounding? The meaning is highly selective. Personally, I have no objection to this way of life; I just take exception when it is portrayed as something other than what it is.

I mean when you read it at the face value you right away begin to think "oh god, what should I do with myself?"

I don’t. I think that is pretty clear. I may not fully understand all the nuances but that is corrected with a little historical research.

so when somebody comes and asks a muslim in such a dawn "I am not a muslim what do you think?" he may get an answer "neither am I, what do you think we can do bro?"

I would say that the Muslim is being dishonest.

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Since you are approaching this in an argumentative way and from the perspective of a skeptic and not as one posting YOUR particular beliefs, I'd suggest that you are posting your questions/challenges in the wrong section.

Since this is an open forum, of course it is in an argumentative way. I’ve never seen why that difference ever meant anything. But I accept your definition. If a moderator finds it worth their time to move it, I have no objections. It would be interesting to find out how many posters are exclusive to one or the other compared to those that peruse both?? If the correlation is high, then there really is no difference.

One could ask that you post your own point of view concerning scripture (instead of the Koran)

The Quran is scripture. That is what I did originally with the Quran. I am *that* sure that I know very well what I am talking about. No one has ever come close to proving me wrong. I seek that insight that will if it exists. I’ve have talked to some that confirm my beliefs. So I ask myself, do I know better than Muslims? Because I am a non Muslim, this just affords me to hold no punches. There is nothing for me to defend. To this point, my only conclusion is 'yes'.

and similarly folks could cherry pick verses from the bible that directly contradict your personal perspective or beliefs.

That is very true. But with my faith, if the Bible commands a believer to kill a non believer, I will not try to deny that it said that.

If you want to invite an argument regarding another's beliefs versus your own--- there's an app for that (Skeptics Section).

No?

Again, I agree but this isn’t about *mine* verses *theirs*. It’s about getting an honest answer in the meaning of major concepts.

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Hello RavenHawk, are you still searching for answer to your question?

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It seems as if there might be some tensions in the previous posts. I am going to try to sidestep any of that and try to answer the question "What does the Quran tell Muslims

on how to treat non believers?" Initially I must ask, to whom are you referring? People of other religions or non-believers like atheists and agnostics, or all of the above? My answer would probably be different depending on what you are referring to. For this post, I will focus on what the Holy Quran teaches on other faiths.

First of all, it must be stated that I am not a Muslim. I am a Christian and a Methodist who studies comparative religion. I have read the Holy Quran and I have also read numerous books on Islam. I have friends that are Muslims and I've visited Muslim countries in my travels. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the faith, so I feel I can appropriately speak into the matter.

The Holy Quran states that: "He created you (humanity) from a single soul." (39:6) Now this passage implies a profound UNITY WITHIN the the diversity of human nature. We can all be traced back to this single point of origin; so it suggests that the religious diversity that exists within human nature still suggests a commonality at its core. In short, we are not as different as we might think.

And rather than making humanity follow one religion or one path exclusively, the Holy Quran states: "To every people [we have sent] a messenger." (10:48)

Now this passage here, I feel is perhaps the most important on how Muslims are to view people of other faiths: "We appointed a law and a way. And if Allah had pleased He would have made you a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you. So vie one with another in virtuous deeds. To Allah you will all return, so he will inform you of that wherein you differed." (5:48)

The emphasis here appears to be to focus on good works rather than arguing about who is right and who isn't, because all will return to Allah. This passage is saying we are not judged based upon the passing or the failing of a theology exam; but rather the theology we have should cause us to do good works, and it is from those works that we will be judged, not the theology itself. I personally think this is a wonderful view and I wish more CHRISTIANS were open to this possibility. Is it possible for someone who practices another religion to enter into heaven? Absolutely I think it is. Romans 2:14 is basically a parallel statement to the above verse from the Quran: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law." Both scriptures imply the same thing; we will be tried based upon what we know and the relationship with God that we have; however perfect or imperfect. If people of all faiths could start coming to this level of understanding, I doubt we would have all this lamentable religious intolerance in the world today.

As if that wasn't enough: "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with the Lord, and there is no fear for the, nor shall they grieve."

Christians and Jews were referred to as Ahl al Kitab; meaning People of the Book. The Prophet recognized the Scriptures that came before as inspired and from Allah.

Now the issue that always gets people about Islam is their supposed views regarding conflict and war. But to say that they are war-mongers and relentlessly fighting Jihads against people of other faiths is a gross historical injustice. The simple fact of the matter is that the Muslims in the Prophet's time fought because they had no choice in the matter. The wealthy pagans saw the rise of Islam as a threat to their power, so they made it their mission to wipe out the faith completely. The wars the Prophet Muhammad fought were reactionary in nature; he was not the aggressor. This is why he develops a sort of rules of engagement in the Scriptures; it reminds me of the Augustinian "Just War Theory."

The Holy Quran states: "Permission (to fight) is given to those on whom war is made, because they are oppressed. And Allah is able to assist them-those who are driven from their homes without a just cause except that they say: "Our Lord is Allah" (22:39,40). It also says "And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors." (2:190)

The Prophet Muhammad showed great respect to both Christians and Jews. He allowed a group of Christians to use the main mosque of Medina for their Sunday worship services. He made treaties with the closest Christian and Jewish communities, respecting the rights and beliefs of the other.

And this wasn't limited to just the time of the Prophet himself. Muslim civilization, from its earliest years until about the 13th century had always shown religious tolerance. For example, the Muslim Caliph Harun ar Rashid, who ruled in Baghdad in the late 8th century actually kept a group of scholars on his staff that were made up of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists who regularly held debate sessions on each other's respective faiths.

The sad reality is that the early ecumenical spirit was lost over the centuries because of misunderstandings, political strife, perversions of teaching and war. In short, our human, fallen nature with its propensity for division got in the way. We need this ecumenical spirit now perhaps more than ever, as people from all around the world are suffering for their beliefs.

If we could just learn to put aside our theological differences and work together as the Quran itself advocates, humanity would be the better for it.

Edited by Marcus Aurelius
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It seems as if there might be some tensions in the previous posts. I am going to try to sidestep any of that and try to answer the question "What does the Quran tell Muslims

on how to treat non believers?" Initially I must ask, to whom are you referring? People of other religions or non-believers like atheists and agnostics, or all of the above? My answer would probably be different depending on what you are referring to. For this post, I will focus on what the Holy Quran teaches on other faiths.

First of all, it must be stated that I am not a Muslim. I am a Christian and a Methodist who studies comparative religion. I have read the Holy Quran and I have also read numerous books on Islam. I have friends that are Muslims and I've visited Muslim countries in my travels. I have a tremendous amount of respect for the faith, so I feel I can appropriately speak into the matter.

The Holy Quran states that: "He created you (humanity) from a single soul." (39:6) Now this passage implies a profound UNITY WITHIN the the diversity of human nature. We can all be traced back to this single point of origin; so it suggests that the religious diversity that exists within human nature still suggests a commonality at its core. In short, we are not as different as we might think.

And rather than making humanity follow one religion or one path exclusively, the Holy Quran states: "To every people [we have sent] a messenger." (10:48)

Now this passage here, I feel is perhaps the most important on how Muslims are to view people of other faiths: "We appointed a law and a way. And if Allah had pleased He would have made you a single people, but that He might try you in what He gave you. So vie one with another in virtuous deeds. To Allah you will all return, so he will inform you of that wherein you differed." (5:48)

The emphasis here appears to be to focus on good works rather than arguing about who is right and who isn't, because all will return to Allah. This passage is saying we are not judged based upon the passing or the failing of a theology exam; but rather the theology we have should cause us to do good works, and it is from those works that we will be judged, not the theology itself. I personally think this is a wonderful view and I wish more CHRISTIANS were open to this possibility. Is it possible for someone who practices another religion to enter into heaven? Absolutely I think it is. Romans 2:14 is basically a parallel statement to the above verse from the Quran: "For when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law." Both scriptures imply the same thing; we will be tried based upon what we know and the relationship with God that we have; however perfect or imperfect. If people of all faiths could start coming to this level of understanding, I doubt we would have all this lamentable religious intolerance in the world today.

As if that wasn't enough: "Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last Day and does good, they have their reward with the Lord, and there is no fear for the, nor shall they grieve."

Christians and Jews were referred to as Ahl al Kitab; meaning People of the Book. The Prophet recognized the Scriptures that came before as inspired and from Allah.

Now the issue that always gets people about Islam is their supposed views regarding conflict and war. But to say that they are war-mongers and relentlessly fighting Jihads against people of other faiths is a gross historical injustice. The simple fact of the matter is that the Muslims in the Prophet's time fought because they had no choice in the matter. The wealthy pagans saw the rise of Islam as a threat to their power, so they made it their mission to wipe out the faith completely. The wars the Prophet Muhammad fought were reactionary in nature; he was not the aggressor. This is why he develops a sort of rules of engagement in the Scriptures; it reminds me of the Augustinian "Just War Theory."

The Holy Quran states: "Permission (to fight) is given to those on whom war is made, because they are oppressed. And Allah is able to assist them-those who are driven from their homes without a just cause except that they say: "Our Lord is Allah" (22:39,40). It also says "And fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but be not aggressive. Surely Allah loves not the aggressors." (2:190)

The Prophet Muhammad showed great respect to both Christians and Jews. He allowed a group of Christians to use the main mosque of Medina for their Sunday worship services. He made treaties with the closest Christian and Jewish communities, respecting the rights and beliefs of the other.

And this wasn't limited to just the time of the Prophet himself. Muslim civilization, from its earliest years until about the 13th century had always shown religious tolerance. For example, the Muslim Caliph Harun ar Rashid, who ruled in Baghdad in the late 8th century actually kept a group of scholars on his staff that were made up of Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus and Buddhists who regularly held debate sessions on each other's respective faiths.

The sad reality is that the early ecumenical spirit was lost over the centuries because of misunderstandings, political strife, perversions of teaching and war. In short, our human, fallen nature with its propensity for division got in the way. We need this ecumenical spirit now perhaps more than ever, as people from all around the world are suffering for their beliefs.

If we could just learn to put aside our theological differences and work together as the Quran itself advocates, humanity would be the better for it.

As a Muslim, I am impressed on how much you know regarding the religion of Islam. You have certainly provided the OP with insightful information that I hope will answer his question. I was prepared to write a response, however yours definitely suffices.

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Read the Quran from front to back you will learn a lot when I have time iam going to read it myslf

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It seems as if there might be some tensions in the previous posts. I am going to try to sidestep any of that and try to answer the question "What does the Quran tell Muslims...

...If we could just learn to put aside our theological differences and work together as the Quran itself advocates, humanity would be the better for it.

But if all Muslims aren't AK-47 wielding, suicide boming, christian hating terrorists, then who do we hate? Wait...the Buddhists have been awfully quiet lately...

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Evidently some people took exception to an academic look at certain aspects (sin) to Islam I posted a week or so ago (which did not violate TOS). They thought it was *too* hostile. Well, I would agree. But only to non believers and as a non believer, I felt I had the right to relay that point of view. It was definitely critical of Islam but that is not hostile. OK fine, so I will approach this in a different light. I want to know exactly what you (as a Muslim) believe in what the Quran tells you how to treat the non believer. We can get into an exchange of ayahs, but don't go there as I will use abrogation to discredit your example. I will certainly accept ayahs that support your view just don't base your view solely on a few ayahs (i.e don't be a robot – put it in your own words). What is the hierarchy of humanity (i.e. dar al-Islam vs dar al-Harb)? Also, what is the definition of Dhimmi that you understand? Are there other meanings? All I seek is an honest answer and I will accept your silence as such. I see nothing hostile in this simple question.

Hi,

There is no such a definition in Quran as "non-believers", this is just a translate to English. There are different words to describe non-muslims as like "kafir" or "munafiq" or "mushriq" etc . All of these have different meanings and noone of them means directly "non-muslim" or "non-believer". So Quran does not says anything about non-believers.

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Hi,

There is no such a definition in Quran as "non-believers", this is just a translate to English. There are different words to describe non-muslims as like "kafir" or "munafiq" or "mushriq" etc . All of these have different meanings and noone of them means directly "non-muslim" or "non-believer". So Quran does not says anything about non-believers.

I don't read classical Arabic, but I am given to understand that kafir is generally rendered in English as non-believer. Could you give some examples of where kafir is used in the Quran, and, is it possible for a muslim to be a kafir? Thanks.

Edited by Philangeli

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I don't read classical Arabic, but I am given to understand that kafir is generally rendered in English as non-believer. Could you give some examples of where kafir is used in the Quran, and, is it possible for a muslim to be a kafir? Thanks.

Yes its given to people to understand as "non-believer", this is partially true translation but details causes many meaning changes. This looks like; I say "Saturn" in Russian language, but you translate it in English as "Planet" , I say "Uranus" in another phrase, but you translate it as "Planet" again. Yes both of them are planets, but they have differences in details. I'm not talking about all the planets, I'm talking about "saturn and uranus" .

A verse from Quran to understand better what does "kafir" means ;

38:74 Except Satan; he turned arrogant, and became one of the nonbelievers.

Satan knows Allah and he calls Allah as "My lord" in Quran, Allah wanted him to accept the superiority of "human" , but he refused this order, he said "I'm made from fire but they're made from mud, how come mud can be superior than fire" , therefore Allah calls him as "kafir". So we can understand that the word "kafir" was used to describe one who accepts Allah but refuses his orders just because of he/she does not like this order.

In arabic, the word "kafir" means "the person who hides the truth or fact" . How can a person hide the truth ? By lying and by misleading people about it, as Satan does.

Ofcourse its possible for a muslim to be "kafir", its possbile for everyone, there is no difference between people, even for the prophets. There is no such a certificate which is given to people to describe their religion, the most dangerous kafirs were always in between muslims, its still the same today.

Edited by LN_Mineva
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In arabic, the word "kafir" means "the person who hides the truth or fact" . How can a person hide the truth ? By lying and by misleading people about it, as Satan does.

Ofcourse its possible for a muslim to be "kafir", its possbile for everyone, there is no difference between people, even for the prophets. There is no such a certificate which is given to people to describe their religion, the most dangerous kafirs were always in between muslims, its still the same today.

So, if I read you correctly, a man who is non-muslim, and who holds his own spiritual truth, is not a kafir;

but, a muslim who cheats, lies, steals, or espouses violence, is a kafir?

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So, if I read you correctly, a man who is non-muslim, and who holds his own spiritual truth, is not a kafir;

but, a muslim who cheats, lies, steals, or espouses violence, is a kafir?

I'm not sure for your fisrt question, nowhere in Quran talks about directly "non-muslims" or "non-believers", it mentions just about hostile people agains Islam, humanity and others.

Yes a person who cheats, lies, steals, espouses violence is "kafir", all of these are against Allah's orders.

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I'm not sure for your fisrt question, nowhere in Quran talks about directly "non-muslims" or "non-believers", it mentions just about hostile people agains Islam, humanity and others.

Yes a person who cheats, lies, steals, espouses violence is "kafir", all of these are against Allah's orders.

By my first question I mean - if a man is honest, just and adheres to his own faith, but does not accept Mohammed or the Quran - is he a kafir?

The Quran may not specifically use the term 'non-muslim', yet it still differentiates between those who follow Allah/Mohammed (i.e. muslims/believers), and the polytheists(non-muslims/non-believers) and the people of the book (Christians and Jews, also non-muslims).

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By my first question I mean - if a man is honest, just and adheres to his own faith, but does not accept Mohammed or the Quran - is he a kafir?

The Quran may not specifically use the term 'non-muslim', yet it still differentiates between those who follow Allah/Mohammed (i.e. muslims/believers), and the polytheists(non-muslims/non-believers) and the people of the book (Christians and Jews, also non-muslims).

Yes muslims and non-muslims are different in the sight of Allah. But this does not mean muslims are superior or they can behave the way they want against people. Islam orders the justice independently from the backgrounds of people. So yes if you read Quran and research about it and still you deny Allah and the prophet, then you're lower than muslims in the sight of Allah.

Verses from Quran to understand better ;

4:135 O you who believe, stand with justice as witnesses to God, even if against yourselves, or the parents or the relatives. Even if he/she be rich or poor, God is more worthy of them, so do not follow your desires from being just. And if you twist or turn away, then God is Expert over what you do.

5:8 O you who believe, stand for God and be witnesses for justice, and let not the hatred towards a people make you avoid being just. Be just, for it is closer to righteousness, and be aware of God. God is expert over what you do.

Edited by LN_Mineva
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If as you say, there is no word that means non Muslm then how would Dhimma be applied to a population?

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If as you say, there is no word that means non Muslm then how would Dhimma be applied to a population?

Sorry I didnt understand the essence of question, if its such a simple question or there are deeper spots that I dont understand.

Non-muslims those who are not bad intentioned can live together muslims, without acts that contrary the rules of an Islamic society.

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Hi,

There is no such a definition in Quran as "non-believers", this is just a translate to English. There are different words to describe non-muslims as like "kafir" or "munafiq" or "mushriq" etc . All of these have different meanings and noone of them means directly "non-muslim" or "non-believer". So Quran does not says anything about non-believers.

A dhimmī (Arabic: ذمي‎ ḏimmī IPA: [ˈðɪmmiː], collectively أهل الذمة ahl al-ḏimmah/dhimmahthe people of the dhimma”) is a historical[1] term referring to non-Muslim citizens of an Islamic state.[1] Dhimma allows rights of residence in return for taxes.[2] According to scholars, dhimmis had their rights fully protected in their communities, but as citizens in the Islamic state, had certain restrictions

.[3] They were excused or excluded from specific duties assigned to Muslims, did not enjoy certain political rights reserved to Muslims, and were subject to payment of a special tax (jizyah), but were otherwise equal under the laws of property, contract and obligation.[4]

So dhimmi is a word for the non Muslim? To put a special tax on people so they can follow a different religion and take political rights away you have call them something other than a Muslim, right?

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So dhimmi is a word for the non Muslim? To put a special tax on people so they can follow a different religion and take political rights away you have call them something other than a Muslim, right?

Yes dhimmi is a word which was used to describe non-muslim persons who live in a muslim country. Also there is no such a word in Quran.

Muslims are not agree on the meaning of word "jizyah". This is a long story. Nowhere in Quran, in no verse, jizyah is defined as "tax". It is mentioned in only one verse between thousands of verses and it is not mentioned as "money".

Arabic root of word jizyah is "return", "compensation", "reward". So when we think about it by looking its meaning and by looking the verse it was mentioned, we can understand as the result, "Jizyah" is "war reparations".

Confusion starts here when we come to the "hadiths". Firstly a little information about "hadiths". They were appeared after hundreds of years of the prophet. They were not popular at the time of the prophet and caliphs. Probably they were forbidden, probably they were know that this stories will confuse the minds. When the hadiths erupted ? At the time of "Umayyads" and "Abbasids" , my personal opinion about them , they were two fascist and extremist Arabic States. There are many verse in Quran that prohibits to believe in any story or word or whatever about Islam, except Quran. The big part of hadiths contradict with each other. Even there are hadiths about the prohibition of hadiths, this is tragic comic.

If still a person wants to believe in hadihts, then okay. According to islamic laws based on hadiths, a non-muslim cannot forced to pay jizyah that he cannot meet easly, non-muslims cannot be bothered, noone can upset them. Women dont pay jizyah, children dont pay, elderly, ill people, jobless people, poor people dont have to pay jizyah. Men who pay jizyah dont be included army that this is a great chance for them .... etc ....

Political rights; again my personal opinion , a muslim community cannot be ruled by a non-muslim president but they can be assigned to the risk-free and proper positions. Probably the big part of muslims agree about this.

Edited by LN_Mineva
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Well were I come from we call that taxation without representation. Government should represent all people not just one group. This just shows how flawed theocracy is as a form of government. Every child born in a country should be able to dream of being all they are capable of regardless of sex, religion or creed.

Political rights; again my personal opinion , a muslim community cannot be ruled by a non-muslim president but they can be assigned to the risk-free and proper positions. Probably the big part of muslims agree about this.

I am sorry, but that is the fascism by religion. Religion is not the job of Government.

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Well were I come from we call that taxation without representation. Government should represent all people not just one group. This just shows how flawed theocracy is as a form of government. Every child born in a country should be able to dream of being all they are capable of regardless of sex, religion or creed.

I am sorry, but that is the fascism by religion. Religion is not the job of Government.

This is quite an innocent request, a non-muslim president would contradict with Islamic rules and muslims would not want to be ruled by non-muslim president. You need to understand the logic of muslims and their perspectives about life. Also I said before, there is no such a sertificate that determines the beliefs of people. This is not blood group written on driver licence. Ofcourse a non-muslim would behave as like a muslim to be president for a muslim country. Highly probably this will cause big problems in the future. Different mindsets and perspectives against the events. I want to give an example, Ottoman Empire, I dont like them so much, yes they had done beautiful jobs, but they also had done so bad jobs. Ottoman was an Islamic empire and they were really hard about the rules. Later times of Empire, they had allowed non-muslims to take part in the state management. Almost all the financial affairs were controlled by non-muslims. The most elite army units were controlled by non-muslims. Even big part of princess were non-muslim Italians, Russians, Bulgarians, Caucasians, Serbians . This policy was the beginning of the collapse of a great empire.

Edited by LN_Mineva
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You mean they let people who they conquered have a say in how they were governed or at least their monarchs. I think it was more like, absolute power corrupts absolutely. It went down for the same reasons Rome went down, currupt monarchy, to big and ran out of people they conquer and collect tribute from.

Edited by GreenmansGod
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