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M. Williams

The Great Pyramid Ramp System by M. Williams

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Hello

My name is mason Williams . I am a stonemason and researcher of ancient construction techniques. I am preparing to 3D model an exterior ramp for the Great Pyramid , one that fits the evidence.

I welcome any constructive critiques or questions you may have .

Thanks

mason

https://www.academia.edu/5649249/THE_GREAT_PYRAMID_RAMP_SYSTEM_by_Mason_Williams

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Hi;

All ramp theories have logical and evidential weaknesses since the evidence

shows the pyramids were constructed by stones moving directly from the quarries

with no interruption as evidenced by the horizontral lines. There are also vertical

lines visible in these structure showing some unknown and subtle process can

leave traces in the finished product but no such trace of something so fundamental

as a ramp exists. The word ramp isn't even attested in the great pyramid building age.

Ramps simply don't fit in with the fact they built a great pyramid first. They started with

little tiny mastabs low rto the ground and went straight to a 200' tall pyramid. This is in-

dicative of a breakthroughin technology or the emergence of a resource that hadn't ex-

isted previously and not some unknowable improvement in ramp technology. Of course,

this last point could be mitigated by your invention here.

Ramps are not consistent with stepped pyramids and bot S1 and G1 are obviously step-

ped pyramids.

Edited by cladking

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It is strange they didn't have a word for ramp ? I guess that would be superceded by the fact they had actual ramps to point at and go " that thing over there". Also, a gently sloping ramp may have been no different than a road or pathway to them. Do they have a word for road , path etc.. I wonder ? All my ramp is, is a continuation of the methods we know were used on the ground to move stones.

If you look at a Cathedral for instance , there is no sign of ramps ,scaffolding or any other means of moving stone on the structure itself. The best scaffold (ramp) is the one that leaves no sign of its existence. But luckily the Egyptians left us plenty of indications of how they moved stone . Countless ramps can be found today, right now , some with sleeper ties. For what possible reason would a road bed have sleeper ties except to help move stone ? There are obvious 7* sloped lines on the side of the great pyramid , what are these if not the remains of a ramp ?

(note) Vertical lines on the face of the pyramid can easily be explained by stones falling from the top. One expect to see the tallest parts, where the most stones are , to have the deepest lines.

Edited by M. Williams

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Hi mason, Do you have any photos or links of the sloped lines on the great pyramid please would be good. Where are the countless ramps found? can you post a photo of them too?

There could be some merit to your scaffold ramp, looks good on paper. Chances of a blowout would be increased if we didnt already know the egyptians were master masons as evidenced by their impressive monuments. The engineering techniques are a fascinating mystery and though many interesting theories abound I too believe the secret hasnt completely been resolved.

Thanks.

And welcome to UM :st

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Hello Taniwha, thanks for the welcome

There are many ramps to be found in and out of quarries, causeways leading to structures. Every inclined passageway inside a pyramid or mustaba was a ramp before the stones were laid on it, the Grand Gallery, ascending descending passages. The construction break at Meidum is shaped like a ramp. I could go on and on, they loved the inclined plane in A.E. and knew how to maneuver stone on them. Google Great Pyramid ramp lines, sleeper ties at Lisht etc.. still trying to figure my new computer .

Cheers

Mason

Edited by M. Williams

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Hello

My name is mason Williams . I am a stonemason and researcher of ancient construction techniques. I am preparing to 3D model an exterior ramp for the Great Pyramid , one that fits the evidence.

I welcome any constructive critiques or questions you may have .

Thanks

mason

https://www.academia..._Mason_Williams

Seems plausible to me.

I've seen that leverage technique in theories of possible methods used by South Amrican Natives (the Inca and Maya, et al.)

I've been advocating for spiral ramps here and elsewhere for years. Not sure wood would have been used. Tends to splinter.

The rubble that filled one of the adjacent quarries meets specifications for a temporary ramp though.

I doubt such a system would be used before they got more than a quarter of the way up the side (or more.) Prior to that point, several ramps extending out perpendicular to the sides would have facilitated a far larger volume of stone delivery per unit time. Once you hit about a third of the way up, you've already placed over half of the stone volume.

Harte

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Seems plausible to me.

I've seen that leverage technique in theories of possible methods used by South Amrican Natives (the Inca and Maya, et al.)

I've been advocating for spiral ramps here and elsewhere for years. Not sure wood would have been used. Tends to splinter.

The rubble that filled one of the adjacent quarries meets specifications for a temporary ramp though.

I doubt such a system would be used before they got more than a quarter of the way up the side (or more.) Prior to that point, several ramps extending out perpendicular to the sides would have facilitated a far larger volume of stone delivery per unit time. Once you hit about a third of the way up, you've already placed over half of the stone volume.

Harte

Hi Harte

Wood is an ideal material to build a ramp out of using tongue and groove ,mortise/tendon etc.. . Using Acacia plantation yields, data indicates it would require 100 acres of forest to provide the 150 tons per year (assuming 20 year construction schedule) needed to construct two all wood ramps as my drawing shows.

As for splintering and such ... I think railroad trestles show just how much wear and tear a wood structure can take and at much greater stresses than a pyramid ramp would ever be subjected to.

If an all wood ramp was impossible for whatever reason , stone could be used in between the corners as my drawing shows. By keeping the stones one cubit tall the stones could be brought up to build the upper portion of the pyramid. Using dimensional stone is very sturdy. A rubble ramp is IMHO is dangerous and prone to failure.

Cheers

Mason

Edited by M. Williams

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I didn't mean splintering from the weight, I meant splintering from the wear of thousands of sandy limestone blocks scraping along the wood.

Harte

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the pyramid causeways are inclined pathways leading up from the Nile to the pyramids.

aren't these, in a sense, a form of ramp?

what name did the ancient Egyptians have for these structures?

i would suspect that any designer of the pyramids would naturally want to economize on the construction of any ramps by incorporating them into the existing structure of the pyramid as it was being built. then later filling these in from the top down as the casing stones were installed and finished. (not necessarily as Houdin and Brier theorise, but similar)

this may be why we find no evidence of their existence on the outside today.

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Hi M Williams ...

Your Scale and ergonomics is all out of skew, what is required is not only moving irregular size blocks up the sides, due consideration must be given to the dressing, fitting and the number of masons working on the particular sections of each singular block in question ~ plus most glaring of all is this ramp does not take into account of the needs and means required for the internal of the Pyramid (if this is in relation to the G1) which is the chambers and passage ways ... as for this ramp idea being for moving the smaller blocks and at the lower levels for the smaller temples or structures it may be quite possible but I seriously doubt it to be feasible or workable for the greater scale in relation to the construction of the greater Pyramids ...

are you familiar with Wally Wallington ?

Welcome to W.T. Wallington's Forgotten Technology Official Website

  • forgotten technology link

~

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Hi M Williams ...

Your Scale and ergonomics is all out of skew, what is required is not only moving irregular size blocks up the sides, due consideration must be given to the dressing, fitting and the number of masons working on the particular sections of each singular block in question ~ plus most glaring of all is this ramp does not take into account of the needs and means required for the internal of the Pyramid (if this is in relation to the G1) which is the chambers and passage ways ... as for this ramp idea being for moving the smaller blocks and at the lower levels for the smaller temples or structures it may be quite possible but I seriously doubt it to be feasible or workable for the greater scale in relation to the construction of the greater Pyramids ...

are you familiar with Wally Wallington ?

Welcome to W.T. Wallington's Forgotten Technology Official Website

  • forgotten technology link

~

Hello Imaginaerius

I agree my drawing is pretty amateur,i'm only a stonemason after all, it's merely the ideas and dimensions for my engineer/timber framer to reference. The graph paper I drew it on doesn't scan so it's hard to scale it off the computer. My modeling i'm doing will look better. But I believe the basic idea gets across for now.

The ramp as shown is the upper 70 feet or so of the pyramid, where the heaviest stone seems to be the pyramidion at 7-15 tons. The sleds are designed to carry 5 - 10 tons approx. with a 10-20 man pulling/levering team or phyle. Since the ramp has a gradual incline the sleds can be loaded with anything from water to gypsum. No workers are present on the ramp except for the stone hauling teams, all other stonemasonry can be done using the unfinished casing stones as a scaffold. My drawing shows the absolute smallest footprint possible for my ramp, I imagine though that all the casing stones were left unfinished until the end and finished from the top down.

As for the strength and stability of wood trestles and stone embankments carrying weight you need only look at the railroad industry where wood trestles built using 12"x12" posts easily support multi-thousand ton trains . Some of these trestles are 150 feet tall and were well within the capabilities of the Egyptian carpenters.

Mason

Edited by M. Williams

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I didn't mean splintering from the weight, I meant splintering from the wear of thousands of sandy limestone blocks scraping along the wood.

Harte

Oh, I see. That's why on my ramp setup I have a 'U' shaped ,hollowed out rail that the sled rides in, eliminating the intrusion of dust /sand . I believe this rail may be what the notched log in the Djehutihotep statue hauling scene is . I believe the bottom corner may be depicting the three main components of the rail system ; the lubricant carriers, the levers, and the rail section(not to be confused with the sleepers). I propose that the notches are lever points , used to propel the sled when necessary.

Mason

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I'm not sure why, but the site is not coming up for me. I'll try again tomorrow at work on a better computer. Maybe you could link the drawing directly?

From the description, I tend to agree with Harte that the lowest levels would have been much easier done with short straight ramps, but I could see a timber ramp being used higher up. They might have even used mortises in the unfinished cladding. Then cleaned up the holes on the way down. Or, filled them in with white limestone mortor. After it was cleaned up no one would be the wiser.

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I'm not sure why, but the site is not coming up for me. I'll try again tomorrow at work on a better computer. Maybe you could link the drawing directly?

From the description, I tend to agree with Harte that the lowest levels would have been much easier done with short straight ramps, but I could see a timber ramp being used higher up. They might have even used mortises in the unfinished cladding. Then cleaned up the holes on the way down. Or, filled them in with white limestone mortor. After it was cleaned up no one would be the wiser.

Their site went down , should be back up shortly. Check out my drawings at academia, you might like it.

Mason

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the pyramid causeways are inclined pathways leading up from the Nile to the pyramids.

aren't these, in a sense, a form of ramp?

I thought the same, apparently not.

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I'm not sure why, but the site is not coming up for me. I'll try again tomorrow at work on a better computer. Maybe you could link the drawing directly?

From the description, I tend to agree with Harte that the lowest levels would have been much easier done with short straight ramps, but I could see a timber ramp being used higher up. They might have even used mortises in the unfinished cladding. Then cleaned up the holes on the way down. Or, filled them in with white limestone mortor. After it was cleaned up no one would be the wiser.

It seems to be working now.

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Hello

My name is mason Williams . I am a stonemason and researcher of ancient construction techniques. I am preparing to 3D model an exterior ramp for the Great Pyramid , one that fits the evidence.

I welcome any constructive critiques or questions you may have .

Thanks

mason

https://www.academia..._Mason_Williams

Thank you for lending your expertise, I for one will be interested to see that which you have to offer, I do not know the subject as well as my counterparts who have already replied, but I hope for a good opportunity to learn something of your trade.

Welcome to UM.

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Thank you for lending your expertise, I for one will be interested to see that which you have to offer, I do not know the subject as well as my counterparts who have already replied, but I hope for a good opportunity to learn something of your trade.

Welcome to UM.

Excellent . Pleasure to meet you.

Mason

Edited by M. Williams
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Hello Imaginaerius

I agree my drawing is pretty amateur,i'm only a stonemason after all, it's merely the ideas and dimensions for my engineer/timber framer to reference. The graph paper I drew it on doesn't scan so it's hard to scale it off the computer. My modeling i'm doing will look better. But I believe the basic idea gets across for now.

The ramp as shown is the upper 70 feet or so of the pyramid, where the heaviest stone seems to be the pyramidion at 7-15 tons. The sleds are designed to carry 5 - 10 tons approx. with a 10-20 man pulling/levering team or phyle. Since the ramp has a gradual incline the sleds can be loaded with anything from water to gypsum. No workers are present on the ramp except for the stone hauling teams, all other stonemasonry can be done using the unfinished casing stones as a scaffold. My drawing shows the absolute smallest footprint possible for my ramp, I imagine though that all the casing stones were left unfinished until the end and finished from the top down.

As for the strength and stability of wood trestles and stone embankments carrying weight you need only look at the railroad industry where wood trestles built using 12"x12" posts easily support multi-thousand ton trains . Some of these trestles are 150 feet tall and were well within the capabilities of the Egyptian carpenters.

Mason

I didn't meant the aesthetics Will ... I meant the logic ... and no the heaviest stone isn't the pyramidion there is more and of greater mass and dimensions, you are trying to isolate it all to a too superficial average, this is not a math problem Will, its not even a problem of engineering, its a problem of time critical pace of construction lining to a defined schedule of completion and logistics ... making inclines easier to get stones going up also means that stones comes down as easy if not easier ... gravity ~ IF the ramp is used exclusively for the hauling teams it defeats the purpose ... what is everyone else going to do while a stone is going up ? Sit and wait it out until the stone gets to its destination point ? How is everyone else going to get up and down ? More ramps ?

The smaller the foot print of the scaffolds the less reliable it is, and more prone to failures ... and how many stones can it withstand on a single stretch ... does this means one stone one team of haulers at a time ? And how does one knows that the critical load is at its peak of tolerance ? The problem with the form of ramp and scaffold build you are proposing is that it WILL twist and tilt ... not withstanding the added weight of the number of individuals of the haulers ... and its at best a grossly conservative under estimate ... not all men have the same strength or capability or weighs the same ... as too are the stone blocks that we know for certain ... thats taking a lot of risks ... and in the long run ... it is not a viable solution, not to mention the repairing that needs be done on such a ramp ... being the singular reliant it also means all work stops when any repairs needs be done.

Your logic of the 'trestles' stability is faulty in when applied to the current problem ... trains have length and the steel tracks distributes the weight not to mention the speed/ momentum of the train lessens the weight impact or down force on the trestles that you mention here ... of course there is more to it but it will take me two pages to list it out ... go research it more and figure out why ~

~

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Seems plausible to me.

I've seen that leverage technique in theories of possible methods used by South Amrican Natives (the Inca and Maya, et al.)

I've been advocating for spiral ramps here and elsewhere for years. Not sure wood would have been used. Tends to splinter.

The rubble that filled one of the adjacent quarries meets specifications for a temporary ramp though.

I doubt such a system would be used before they got more than a quarter of the way up the side (or more.) Prior to that point, several ramps extending out perpendicular to the sides would have facilitated a far larger volume of stone delivery per unit time. Once you hit about a third of the way up, you've already placed over half of the stone volume.

Harte

probably the best indicator for a ramp.

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Well, the ramp, despite clads' opinion (because we actually don't know how many words the Egyptians had, all we can tell what was written, and due to the lack of a contemporary comprehensible encyclopedia we will most probably never know).

Now, the ramps, whatever they were must have been of local material as most of the pyramid itself (save a few minor details all is local sandstone and rubble), that very much excludes wood.

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I didn't meant the aesthetics Will ... I meant the logic ... and no the heaviest stone isn't the pyramidion there is more and of greater mass and dimensions, you are trying to isolate it all to a too superficial average, this is not a math problem Will, its not even a problem of engineering, its a problem of time critical pace of construction lining to a defined schedule of completion and logistics ... making inclines easier to get stones going up also means that stones comes down as easy if not easier ... gravity ~ IF the ramp is used exclusively for the hauling teams it defeats the purpose ... what is everyone else going to do while a stone is going up ? Sit and wait it out until the stone gets to its destination point ? How is everyone else going to get up and down ? More ramps ?

The smaller the foot print of the scaffolds the less reliable it is, and more prone to failures ... and how many stones can it withstand on a single stretch ... does this means one stone one team of haulers at a time ? And how does one knows that the critical load is at its peak of tolerance ? The problem with the form of ramp and scaffold build you are proposing is that it WILL twist and tilt ... not withstanding the added weight of the number of individuals of the haulers ... and its at best a grossly conservative under estimate ... not all men have the same strength or capability or weighs the same ... as too are the stone blocks that we know for certain ... thats taking a lot of risks ... and in the long run ... it is not a viable solution, not to mention the repairing that needs be done on such a ramp ... being the singular reliant it also means all work stops when any repairs needs be done.

Your logic of the 'trestles' stability is faulty in when applied to the current problem ... trains have length and the steel tracks distributes the weight not to mention the speed/ momentum of the train lessens the weight impact or down force on the trestles that you mention here ... of course there is more to it but it will take me two pages to list it out ... go research it more and figure out why ~

~

Third Eye , thank you for your response

I wasn't explaining aesthetics and I'm well aware there are bigger stones in the GP .This debate is mainly about the upper third of the pyramid correct? That's what Houdin's internal ramp is said to be for ,the upper third correct ? Therefore it would have to accommodate the largest stone in the top third ,which is ? .... The pyramidion most likely. As for wood structures supporting loads I don't feel there is to much to debate . Traditional timber framing is very strong. While you are correct to say a weight in motion may be lighter ,it will also produce much greater stress on a structure, not to mention a train in motion still weighs thousands of tons. . That's why trains slow down before entering a trestle. You can't avoid the fact that train trestles , timber frame homes and the like can carry massive amounts of weight. If you were going to research something I would definitely research trestles.

As for weight distribution; you are correct, that's why I have 'U' shaped log rails and sleepers.

As for wear and tear and replacing the parts; the rail (not to be confused with sleeper) is the only part in contact with the sled . The rail can be easily replaced .

As for logistics; while the sleds may be standardized ,there loads are not.This allows for the different materials to be delivered in a reproducible way. I've given the math necessary to demonstrate my ramps one stone every two minutes delivery rate in my drawing

And yes, workers would walk back down small ramps , just a person wide, running next to the ramp.

With all due respect, I don't need to research scaffolding in the way you're suggesting . I have an incredible amount of experience moving weight on scaffolds

Cheers

Mason

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Third Eye , thank you for your response

I wasn't explaining aesthetics and I'm well aware there are bigger stones in the GP .This debate is mainly about the upper third of the pyramid correct? That's what Houdin's internal ramp is said to be for ,the upper third correct ? Therefore it would have to accommodate the largest stone in the top third ,which is ? .... The pyramidion most likely. As for wood structures supporting loads I don't feel there is to much to debate . Traditional timber framing is very strong. While you are correct to say a weight in motion may be lighter ,it will also produce much greater stress on a structure, not to mention a train in motion still weighs thousands of tons. . That's why trains slow down before entering a trestle. You can't avoid the fact that train trestles , timber frame homes and the like can carry massive amounts of weight. If you were going to research something I would definitely research trestles.

As for weight distribution; you are correct, that's why I have 'U' shaped log rails and sleepers.

As for wear and tear and replacing the parts; the rail (not to be confused with sleeper) is the only part in contact with the sled . The rail can be easily replaced .

As for logistics; while the sleds may be standardized ,there loads are not.This allows for the different materials to be delivered in a reproducible way. I've given the math necessary to demonstrate my ramps one stone every two minutes delivery rate in my drawing

And yes, workers would walk back down small ramps , just a person wide, running next to the ramp.

With all due respect, I don't need to research scaffolding in the way you're suggesting . I have an incredible amount of experience moving weight on scaffolds

Cheers

Mason

HOw did you come to that conclusion that Houdin's internal ramp is only for the upper third of the G1 ?

ANd how do you conclude that this ramp of yours will suffer no damage while the 'rail' is not immune ?

While I appreciate your maths, like I mentioned I'm not much for any mathematical solution of cold numbers to provide any convincing much less hard answers to add to the myriad of available cold numbers solutions evidently now available out there now, some has also been elevated to a gospel almost ... and on top of that there are many a CGI rendered fantasy of the Pyramid sprouting like a balloon mushroom through time lapse special effects making it a supposedly airtight evidence of how the Pyramids must have been built. I don't see how you are proposing anything new here ... Its just more of the simplifying the logistics to fit the numbers and come to a conclusion of x=y

If that's what you are attempting to achieve I can assure you that you will succeed ... whether you will come up with anything as convincing or more convincing than what is presently still debated on in regards of the subject the subject is left to be seen ...

Like I mentioned ... a ramp didn't build the pyramids ... its the AEs ... and to say that the AEs built the Pyramids with just the know how of ramps is very much an insult to what is required not to mention of what the AEs achieved ...

~Good Luck ~

~

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ThirdEye, before I head off to build a stone wall this morning...

1. Houdin says himself the internal ramp is for the top third

2. The rail is the point of contact for both the sled and the lever. The only wear the deck ( otherwise known as sleepers ) will receive is from the sandaled feet of the workers. Since it's unnecessary for stone to be installed at night ,all ramp repairs are done then.

3. I couldn't have put it better myself. Yes, I am " trying to simplify the logistics to fit the numbers". It's not about how crazy an idea you can come up with, it's about getting the job done. This is something I know how to do. If I can show my ramp will; (A.) access all parts of the pyramid. (Have the smallest footprint of any exterior ramp. © Have a 1 stone every 2 minute delivery rate. (D) Not effect the internal GP structure. (E) Keep corner sight lines clear. (F) and make the engineering work . If I can prove , with math, that my ramp does those things then yes, I will have achieved my intended result, traditional archaeology will have an engineered exterior spiral ramp that is engineered. No more debate, just math.

As for insulting the Ancient Egyptians , I did no such thing, your logic is somewhat circular. I'm saying the Egyptians were so intelligent , so inventive, so level headed that they figured out how to stick a ramp to the exterior of the pyramid. Where's the insult ?

Mason

Edited by M. Williams
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