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Nightmaker47

How can Jesus be God & Son of God?

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One thing I don't understand about Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the son of god and god. How exactly can Jesus be god and son of god at the same time? I mean, who did Jesus talk to when they crucified him and said, "Father why did you betray me?" Did Jesus basically talk to himself or was he actually talking to his father Yahweh? He also mentions that the father is greater than him, meaning that something is in a higher level than Jesus. Can it be god?

Personally, I find this Jesus being equal to god and son of god as an oxymoron. It's like my son telling me that he is my son and the father of the son. It makes no sense. Either Jesus is a god or just a son of god, not both. One cannot be a father and a son of the father at the same time. It has to be either one or the other. This is how I see Jesus nature. Nothing but a messenger and son of god.

Does anyone agree with my point of view?

Edited by Nightmaker47

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Oedipus complex?

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Jesus was the Son of God that took on the sins of the world.So whoever believes in Jesus's sacrifice, he will witness on ones behalf to the Father on the day of Judgement.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The Father. the Son, and the Holy Spirit work together.

Edited by davros of skaro
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maybe it was like a 'me, myself, and i' sort of thing

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The best I've heard it explained by a christian is that the father, the son, and the holy spirit are separate entities of one, like the three phases of water: solid, liquid, and gas.

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One thing I don't understand about Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the son of god and god. How exactly can Jesus be god and son of god at the same time? I mean, who did Jesus talk to when they crucified him and said, "Father why did you betray me?" Did Jesus basically talk to himself or was he actually talking to his father Yahweh? He also mentions that the father is greater than him, meaning that something is in a higher level than Jesus. Can it be god?

Personally, I find this Jesus being equal to god and son of god as an oxymoron. It's like my son telling me that he is my son and the father of the son. It makes no sense. Either Jesus is a god or just a son of god, not both. One cannot be a father and a son of the father at the same time. It has to be either one or the other. This is how I see Jesus nature. Nothing but a messenger and son of god.

Does anyone agree with my point of view?

If I'm not mistaken that is close to the muslim view. That Jesus was a prophet and the messiah and born of a virgin, but a man and not God.

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Jesus was the Son of God that took on the sins of the world.So whoever believes in Jesus's sacrifice, he will witness on ones behalf to the Father on the day of Judgement.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The Father. the Son, and the Holy Spirit work together.

It sounds like Jesus is mentioning someone else besides him. Doesn't this quote prove that Jesus and god are two different beings? One being the son (Jesus) and the other as the father (Yahweh)?

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The best I've heard it explained by a christian is that the father, the son, and the holy spirit are separate entities of one, like the three phases of water: solid, liquid, and gas.

But aren't they just 3 unique entities that co-exist as one? Like Yahweh being the father, Jesus being the son, and the holy spirit?

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If I'm not mistaken that is close to the muslim view. That Jesus was a prophet and the messiah and born of a virgin, but a man and not God.

I never thought of that actually. Thanks for the knowledge. I thought the Muslims believed that Jesus was just a man and had no father-son relationship with god?

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Oedipus complex?

lol :tsu:

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It sounds like Jesus is mentioning someone else besides him. Doesn't this quote prove that Jesus and god are two different beings? One being the son (Jesus) and the other as the father (Yahweh)?

The problem is the bible is contradictory. John 10 : 30 says "I and the Father are one"

I never thought of that actually. Thanks for the knowledge. I thought the Muslims believed that Jesus was just a man and had no father-son relationship with god?

I'm not exactly sure about that but they do believe in the virgin birth.

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Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

The Father. the Son, and the Holy Spirit work together.

That sounds to me like Jesus is the part of God that humans coexist with. He is the part they can see, hear, and touch. The other parts could be less than understandable by mortals, if I am on the right track.

Edited by _Only
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Even Adam was called a son of God in the Bible.

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It sounds like Jesus is mentioning someone else besides him. Doesn't this quote prove that Jesus and god are two different beings? One being the son (Jesus) and the other as the father (Yahweh)?

The Holy Spirit enters you to find the truth in your Heart.

Jesus witnesses this truth in your Heart.

God holds final Judgement of the truth in your Heart.

This is why Muslims see Christians as Polytheists, because in Islam Jesus is just a prophet of God.Muhammad is the final, and top prophet of God in Islam.

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Ah well, that's the Trinity for you, see. Very subtle, the Trinity.

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That's one of the cool concepts of Christianity in my book, trying to wrap your head around the Trinity. I feel like in the Christian context (being an atheist I don't believe in God myself) God is living the life of a human, his son, through him he is 'God made flesh' the 'son of man' as well. God's omnipotent and omnipresent so 'as' Jesus he became a part of the world instead of knower and the absolute, the sins built up by humanity were then washed clean when God as man, the son of God, was crucified by man. It's strange even still but that's most logical I can think of. It's kind of poetic, but that's kind of all it is, poetry and a story to mull over.

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Hi Nightmaker, there are three Persons in one God. They are distinct: for the Father has no origin, he came from no one. But the Son is begotten, he comes from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit comes or proceeds from both the Father and the Son. These different relations of origin tell us there are three distinct Persons, who have one and the same divine nature.

Edited by Star of the Sea
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Star

Howdy. That was quite a visual acuity test. I flunked, even though I was wearing my glasses. Here's your text:

Hi Nightmaker, there are three Persons in one God. They are distinct: for the Father has no origin, he came from no one. But the Son is begotten, he comes from the Father alone. The Holy Spirit comes or proceeds from both the Father and the Son. These different relations of origin tell us there are three distinct Persons, who have one and the same divine nature.

That, of course, expresses a Roman Catholic view. In the Eastern Orthodox version of the Nicene Creed (which is also an official text in Roman Catholicism, as the Greek version, and so the actual conciliar enactment, of the Creed), the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father alone.

This seems to disrupt what was a very neat exposition of the Trinity. Any comments would be welcome.

OP

Generally, there are devout unitarians today, and probably there also were in the early church, if for no other reason than that Judaism is nearly defined by the Shema - Hear, Israel, that the Lord, our God, is one. Paul, who brags of his exemplary Jewishness, could not plausibly have believed that God had a literal child, although the phrase "Son of God" was in use (for, among other persons, Davidic kings). Mark doesn't seem concerned with a divine Jesus, either.

Three Gospels later, John opens with Jesus creating the world. But reading him, and Second Century Christian authors, it is unclear that equal stature reigns yet within the Trinity. That's conciliar teaching, Nicea and Constantinople, both Fourth Century.

I mean, who did Jesus talk to when they crucified him and said, "Father why did you betray me?" Did Jesus basically talk to himself or was he actually talking to his father Yahweh?

That's Psalm 22. The scene is elegantly composed. Jesus manages, with what little breath remains to him, to acknowledge the human dimension of his predicament, allude to his Davidic heritage (the author of the psalm), and remind us that it isn't over until the fat lady sings (the psalm is about David being vindicated by God after enduring a humiliating defeat).

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One thing I don't understand about Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the son of god and god.

As eb has mentioned, the trinitarian concept was formalised some 200 years after the time the scriptures were presumed to have been written. While that in itself does not mean we should presume to find a discrepancy between the concept of a trinity of god, and how the scriptures depict the relationship between Jesus and God, it does mean that if we do find such a discrepancy it may be explained by any drift in belief/custom that might occur over that length of time.

Additionally, the Nicean Council at which the concept of trinity was formalised, was not actually convened to address this but to address the divisions in contemporary Christian factions regarding the divinity of Jesus and accommodate that to a monotheistic belief. The concept of trinity is the only way to accommodate multiple (3) divine personalities into one divine entity.

And this is how I find it best to view the trinity, not as 3 entities in one, but as one entity with 3 distinct personalities.

Edited by Leonardo
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It is written (lol) that Jesus said that the Kingdom of Heaven is Within ... I think The message was intended to be that God and divinity resides in each and everything with a within

but we got the message twisted and made God like man...

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Hi Eighty! I think the issue is over the latin word 'Filioque' ('and the Son') The expression "from the Father through the Son" is accepted by many Eastern Orthodox. This, in fact, led to a reunion of the Eastern Orthodox with the Catholic Church in 1439 at the Council of Florence: "The Greek prelates believed that every saint, precisely as a saint, was inspired by the Holy Spirit and therefore could not err in faith. If they expressed themselves differently, their meanings must substantially agree. . . . Once the Greeks accepted that the Latin Fathers had really written Filioque (they could not understand Latin), the issue was settled (May 29). The Greek Fathers necessarily meant the same; the faiths of the two churches were identical; union was not only possible but obligatory (June 3); and on June 8 the Latin cedula [statements of belief] on the procession [of the Spirit] was accepted by the Greek synod" (New Catholic Encyclopedia, 5:972–3) cont....

http://www.catholic....tracts/filioque

Edited by Star of the Sea
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One thing I don't understand about Christianity is the belief that Jesus is the son of god and god. How exactly can Jesus be god and son of god at the same time? I mean, who did Jesus talk to when they crucified him and said, "Father why did you betray me?" Did Jesus basically talk to himself or was he actually talking to his father Yahweh? He also mentions that the father is greater than him, meaning that something is in a higher level than Jesus. Can it be god?

Personally, I find this Jesus being equal to god and son of god as an oxymoron. It's like my son telling me that he is my son and the father of the son. It makes no sense. Either Jesus is a god or just a son of god, not both. One cannot be a father and a son of the father at the same time. It has to be either one or the other. This is how I see Jesus nature. Nothing but a messenger and son of god.

Does anyone agree with my point of view?

This is a good question that has probably made many to wonder.

The same way a human can be a body and a spirit combined in one. Each an individual part of a human yet combined, only separated at death where they are united at the resurrection.

God bless

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This is nothing new really, there are things about God in the Scriptures that are beyond complete human understanding and the concept of one God existing in three Persons is one. But this nature of God is suggested in the very opening of the Bible:

Genesis 1:26 "Then God said, "Let us make man(kind) in our image, in our likeness, so that they may rule over the fish of the sea and the birds in the sky, over the livestock and all the wild animals, and over the creatures that move along the ground." (NIV)

In this Genesis 1 you have God creating the Heavens and the Earth, you have the Spirit brooding or moving over the Water, and in John 1 you are further told that without the Son (the Word), "nothing was made that has been made", also referring to creation.

There are many verse that expound upon the Trinitarian nature of God, here are three:

John 10:30 (Jesus speaking) "I and the Father are one" (NIV)

John 14:9 "Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has see the Father. How ca you say, 'Show us the Father'?" (NIV)

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word (a title for Christ seen in John 1), and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (KJV)

We as humans are singular beings, it is difficult if not impossible for us to comprehend living as three distinct personalities yet being of one essence. I hate to defer to the fact that some things are a mystery but that is the case here; I suppose any god that would be completely understandable by finite man would not be God at all.

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Personally, I find this Jesus being equal to god and son of god as an oxymoron. It's like my son telling me that he is my son and the father of the son. It makes no sense. Either Jesus is a god or just a son of god, not both. One cannot be a father and a son of the father at the same time. It has to be either one or the other.

Because most christians miss the ENTIRE point of Christ's message, because it's not explicitly spelled out for them.

If you read the new testament, and see through the political bullsiht that happened long after christ died and they were written and rewritten, you can still see the true message, which is:

THERE IS NO GOD, THERE IS NO HUMANITY. All creation is ONE THING. The idea that we are all separate, individual entities is an illusion. We are all part of ONE living entity that is all creation. And ironically, this is the message that science also supports. Energy can not be created or destroyed, it can only change form. All matter is just a varying form of energy. Therefore, we are all the same thing, just temporarily in a different form, with the illusion that our current individual consciousness is the sum of what we are.

We are ONE body, ONE entity. WE are all God, and God is all of us.

Edited by Neognosis
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maybe it was like a 'me, myself, and i' sort of thing

His favorite words.

Edited by Mystic Crusader
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