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behavioralist

Do You Really Love if Truth Sets the Bar?

27 posts in this topic

Emotion is the outcome-portent. Love is that the outcome of two or more is the greater outcome. We may call bees industrious, but industry as man can empathize with it is a reflection of the deleterious outcome of reward-seeking and fear of privation. Reward is a secure distance from privation, and a signature of blind servility.

Reward is the base outcome-portent. The outcome will be one’s reward. The means will be an emotional diminishment of the relationship: you will be my reward, and what you get out of it will matter to you, not me. If it leads to privation you are out of the game. No one will care.

Never give a sucker an even break. Outcome-indifference. Outcome-separation. If the outcome had to be mutually agreeable we could not chop down trees, or exploit each other’s credulousness.

Love, then, is the mutually agreeable outcome. I love you when you love your life, and the addition of my way of interacting with you does not diminish that love for your life.

This is a profoundly complex outcome-process because a life is a habitat, and a habitat has very exacting demands upon what parts can constitute the whole. (In school you have to “love your classmates” and “respect your teacher”, so that giving a party or playing a game becomes tedious. School is never a habitat but a confinement.)

One of the prerequisites for that love I would have for you is that you do already love your life. I am not there to make your life; only to be consistent with the sum of it. And that has a negligible probability. In nature it is amazing how quickly an intruder is sent packing! ---so that “making friends” is quite a contrived concept. Love is a thing you keep in working order, by laying eggs and blowing seeds and spores around, and what not, at very specific times, and cannot become something you improvise by accepting membership applications.

If you do not already love your life, then I am in trouble if I expect a good outcome from anticipating that I might love you. Without loving your own life you also have no way to see if someone else does love his or her life (ego: my life is not the budget-model or a knock-off!). One becomes the context. It is “observer effect”. The runaway is naively trying to escape, not an environment or context, but something that can’t be left behind. Seeking safe harbor devolves into rooting in the exact same medium or context. Anything else is “inferior” or “phobic” to the acclimated ego.

Evil is the worst-case reward-emotion. Consider nationality and patriotism, for example. If someone who can declare war on the behalf of all the patriots in a nation is hiding an utter disregard for all patriots and the nation, knowing his profits will be good anywhere, then all ideals are merely his tools; everyone appears utterly vacuous to him for embracing these or any other ideals.

He has no wish to recover a lost humanity or adopt a surrogate “comforter” such as ideals. He doesn’t miss his aborted humanity in the least, but finds vindication in the abuse of anyone who does. He is the “Noah” to whom God has said, “Prepare a coffer as large as ten stadiums, for I shall deluge thee with riches; sparing thee alone from the indignities the Earth has brought upon itself!”.

Only a child can imagine a God who is not pleased with its loveless behavior, which is why evangelists always target children. However loving they may be they can always be told it is not loving enough.

Evil has the greatest power over outcome, everything, even the photons, being servile to it. Everything its power can extent to will be helplessly participating in its version of desired outcome, which is a very mortal version of outcome since only humanity has anything immortal in it (evolution). An utterly mortal version of outcome is that the universe is collateral damage. If God spares only one, obviously God only needs that one.

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Hello, behavioralist--

Where did you get your 'Noah-coffers-stadium' quote from?

Do you believe that 'evil has the greatest power over photons?' Is this a reflection of a Manichean point of view?

Color me befuddled.

Regards.

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I think love is like pine cones, dropping from the trees around you near your feet. You are the ground that makes them grow or leave out cold. And if you're brave and reach out, you can drop a pine cone too.

Evil and good are in the eye of the beholder unless you can love and tolerate absolutely everything. I do not, dont know if I could. Taboos and absolute evils are beyond the eye of the beholder -perspective. Some may be unacceptable no matter what, but it may be acceptable to look at why you got to that point and continue.

Love is a choise. Sometimes it might be easier, or in different ways easier, but still a choise.

You seem to lament the cruelty of nature, but I know animals so loyal they'd rather die than betray their friends. The japanese dog who waited his human caretaker in the station for years all the way to his (the dog's) death is a good example. For every ill-behaving animal or person (I see animals as persons but so that those who dont understand) there's one who brings a light to your heart, even when they're gone. Love is a strange thing because it can last after you've lost contact...

The "evil" reactions are too often just protective, less evolved reactions. Reactions that are not result of learning about life but of the belief that you are right and have been right. I dont see those things as evil or lack of love, but as people who need both to learn about life, and love received. There's a time and a place for everything, and in some cases you need huge amounts of sincerity & naturalness if you want to give both love and a learning. And as you said, to give, you must first take.

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I understood none of that, and I'm not stupid either

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Hello, behavioralist--

Where did you get your 'Noah-coffers-stadium' quote from?

Do you believe that 'evil has the greatest power over photons?' Is this a reflection of a Manichean point of view?

Color me befuddled.

Regards.

Not a quote. A lot of quotable stuff comes to me as a write, in my own view, which is that I wish I had read that when I was just a student. The picking were lean.

What I mean is that the more you are hurt and practicing that hurt as an advantage the more you hurt the photon with your presence or involvement.

What is involved in getting hurt when you are Little? A very dense histrionic smokescreen. And when your subconscious, which is actually on your sleeve at the beginning, picks up on this trick without knowing it is the parent's trick as well, you become the master of those who are not nearly as hurt at your age. So this is the worst that can happen, the worst genetic trait; and the biggest advantage.

That advantage is a pall of a certain portent, and nothing can be immune to it. it is a palpable pall, but nothing is palpable to the conscious, which is why it is so fixated on pleasure. It has no World, except as a pleasure-market.

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I think love is like pine cones, dropping from the trees around you near your feet. You are the ground that makes them grow or leave out cold. And if you're brave and reach out, you can drop a pine cone too.

Evil and good are in the eye of the beholder unless you can love and tolerate absolutely everything. I do not, dont know if I could. Taboos and absolute evils are beyond the eye of the beholder -perspective. Some may be unacceptable no matter what, but it may be acceptable to look at why you got to that point and continue.

Love is a choise. Sometimes it might be easier, or in different ways easier, but still a choise.

You seem to lament the cruelty of nature, but I know animals so loyal they'd rather die than betray their friends. The japanese dog who waited his human caretaker in the station for years all the way to his (the dog's) death is a good example. For every ill-behaving animal or person (I see animals as persons but so that those who dont understand) there's one who brings a light to your heart, even when they're gone. Love is a strange thing because it can last after you've lost contact...

The "evil" reactions are too often just protective, less evolved reactions. Reactions that are not result of learning about life but of the belief that you are right and have been right. I dont see those things as evil or lack of love, but as people who need both to learn about life, and love received. There's a time and a place for everything, and in some cases you need huge amounts of sincerity & naturalness if you want to give both love and a learning. And as you said, to give, you must first take.

If love is defined as wanting to become one, the way the bees are so that their Creations can not be found to have individual worker-signatures or seams, then predation makes profound sense: those that can no longer be loved must be removed in a way that illustrated why they can't be loved.

A tame view is of a tame predisposition. It leaves it open for anyone in any condition to demand to be loved. Upon whom does the responsibility fall for the individuals condition? You may own and neglect anyone, and still "decide" to love him or her when the damage has become pathological.

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I understood none of that, and I'm not stupid either

The inference pointing to indifference and the commensurate haste to get to important things like ...... Like?

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In all seriousness, I thought you had access to a New Age Bible which provided laternative translations of interpretations of the original Hebrew. It was quite poetic, actually.

To the deeper part: Is all negativity programmed into our brains through histrionic childhood behaviors and the reactions of parental figures? What about the notion of extrinsic (natural or objective) evil vs. intrinsic (personal or subjective) evil?

Is there a dichotomy between consciousness and pleasure, or a neurological interaction symbiosis?

How is this "pall" an advantage, and to what?

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I don't see industry as a deleterious outcome, nor emotion as outcomes or negatives. Both are natural activities/behaviors, and both are often responsible for the creation of some very good things. And if you read the posts in the Spirituality section, you'll find that plenty of adults can not only imagine, but believe in the concept of a displeased God. Evil is not the greatest power, either. It is powerful, but most people lived their lives trying to get along, be of service, practice compassion, acceptance, etc.

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If love is defined as wanting to become one, the way the bees are so that their Creations can not be found to have individual worker-signatures or seams, then predation makes profound sense: those that can no longer be loved must be removed in a way that illustrated why they can't be loved.

A tame view is of a tame predisposition. It leaves it open for anyone in any condition to demand to be loved. Upon whom does the responsibility fall for the individuals condition? You may own and neglect anyone, and still "decide" to love him or her when the damage has become pathological.

I didn't mean that to love is to unite, on the contrary, the pine cone thing was about how love grows and how easy it is to extinquish and grow both. Like life.

You can prevent all kinds of pathological damage that is the result of hanging on in a broken relationship with confrontation. Confrontation. And make drastic actions if everything isn't satisfactory enough for you. Believe or not, everyone has that choise. No matter how much they say they're in love, because no matter if it's the bonding between two people or the other person that you love, unification or separation, you're still in position to choose, always, somehow. And even if you didn't have what it takes to make things better for yourself, which everyone does in my opinion, you can always seek help and train yourself.

Nobody says it's easy. It's very hard. But like everything real in life, you dont get if you dont contribute in equal terms. As a rule of thumb. In reality someone always gives more than the other because nothing comes from pure emptiness.

Love cannot exist in the sense we mean it to living, sensible creatures if you remove choise. Try loving a doll or a lifeless object and you see what I mean.

And note that I'm not going to argue with you about what's evil, because we probably have very different views and neither will budge I bet, and why should we? You can't give me a reason good enough if I can see some fallacy in your reasoning, and vice versa. It'd be laborous for you, and most likely for me too.

Edited by Mikko-kun

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I just had a conversation about this with a friend. We all do have choices, but that doesn't always occur to people, that they have choices or that maybe their lives would be better if they made a different choice. It's like the little kid who was constantly emotionally & verbally abused by a parent, and so came to believe that they weren't lovable, or worthy of honor or respect. That belief becomes so deeply embedded that it becomes difficult to identify it as a choice, it has simply become their truth, and blinds them to other possibilities. It just never occurs to them that they could choose something else. It's like training fleas for a flea circus. You put the fleas in a jar and put the lid on, and shake the jar. The fleas jump up, hit the jar lid, and pretty soon learn to jump just below the height of the lid. Then you can take the lid off, shake the jar, and the fleas will continue to limit how high they jump, because they don't know that circumstances have changed, and they actually have a choice.

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Is there anyway you can describe what your trying to say in layman's terms?

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Yeah Beany... there's the problem of not being aware of your choises so much. Some choises may seem so utterly outlandish that we'd rather make our life a living hell than consider them because it's not "normal". But who decides normal for us? We need to get out of whatever box we're in, for our own good.

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In all seriousness, I thought you had access to a New Age Bible which provided laternative translations of interpretations of the original Hebrew. It was quite poetic, actually.

To the deeper part: Is all negativity programmed into our brains through histrionic childhood behaviors and the reactions of parental figures? What about the notion of extrinsic (natural or objective) evil vs. intrinsic (personal or subjective) evil?

Is there a dichotomy between consciousness and pleasure, or a neurological interaction symbiosis?

How is this "pall" an advantage, and to what?

Negativity is a role-trait. A pall is the ability to associate a role advancement-prospect with trauma. A teen boy may be quite attractive to a popular girl, for example, but she represents an advancement-prospect and has been conditioned to know it. Now he has to be conditioned to know he has no such prospect. The dissusasion has to come from both directions, or the girl might flirt (dishonoring her rightful owner).

Evil has to be a reflection of ulterior motives of a global effect. The global effect is passed off as provoked or accidental or some such thing, while in fact it is what evil people have cashed in on, having anticpated it as profitable to do it and to make it appear necessary.

The persecute someone is not evil. Tp persecute as many as a leadership role allows you to reach is evil. To persecute all of nature or much of it is evil. It is applied psychopathy. I don't just troch kittens; I torch planets. Evil has to do with mass-effect like gravity; it is social gravity.

But of course we are all culpable. We are the ones who have to be duped Before evil can reign. We are the ones who try to crowd our very beings into a 3.5 floppy of memory so that we will not notice the contradictions to all the prevarications and deflections represented by even a brief visit to the present. We are a species supporting evil, each with our own Little "evil" or ego, like each Queen-idolizer has her own hat according to what she can afford that signifies her kinship with royaly.

Pleasure is what justifies cramming oneself into the 3.5 floppy. I am not in here because I am stupid or afraid to advance, but because I am smart about pleasure.

Edited by behavioralist

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I didn't mean that to love is to unite, on the contrary, the pine cone thing was about how love grows and how easy it is to extinquish and grow both. Like life.

You can prevent all kinds of pathological damage that is the result of hanging on in a broken relationship with confrontation. Confrontation. And make drastic actions if everything isn't satisfactory enough for you. Believe or not, everyone has that choise. No matter how much they say they're in love, because no matter if it's the bonding between two people or the other person that you love, unification or separation, you're still in position to choose, always, somehow. And even if you didn't have what it takes to make things better for yourself, which everyone does in my opinion, you can always seek help and train yourself.

Nobody says it's easy. It's very hard. But like everything real in life, you dont get if you dont contribute in equal terms. As a rule of thumb. In reality someone always gives more than the other because nothing comes from pure emptiness.

Love cannot exist in the sense we mean it to living, sensible creatures if you remove choise. Try loving a doll or a lifeless object and you see what I mean.

And note that I'm not going to argue with you about what's evil, because we probably have very different views and neither will budge I bet, and why should we? You can't give me a reason good enough if I can see some fallacy in your reasoning, and vice versa. It'd be laborous for you, and most likely for me too.

Aren't you saying that whatever people are concealing from us, on any level we let them occupy, they cannot diminish our lives to that Point where love is not an option? Do you know the crime-rate in a slum? How about the Death-toll from the slum and from basically being coerced to accept military duty? I don't mean these as bad things, but as examples of how Everything can be diminished.

Evolution sweetens universally, even in its predation. Are there enough parks for your liking? Why not move to the slums and see how it is to have so few parks that the squirrels have all died out. No parks reflect perfectly the Daily grind of a crack-hooker. Anyone who is not passionate about nature has no love to refer to when addressing the subject.

Here we are on Internet, most of us not aware how priveleged that makes us. Are the starving, the besieged and defiled screaming here? I grew up in privelege, and I did not consider it seeing the world. Even princess Di was afraid what it was making her own Children into.

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I just had a conversation about this with a friend. We all do have choices, but that doesn't always occur to people, that they have choices or that maybe their lives would be better if they made a different choice. It's like the little kid who was constantly emotionally & verbally abused by a parent, and so came to believe that they weren't lovable, or worthy of honor or respect. That belief becomes so deeply embedded that it becomes difficult to identify it as a choice, it has simply become their truth, and blinds them to other possibilities. It just never occurs to them that they could choose something else. It's like training fleas for a flea circus. You put the fleas in a jar and put the lid on, and shake the jar. The fleas jump up, hit the jar lid, and pretty soon learn to jump just below the height of the lid. Then you can take the lid off, shake the jar, and the fleas will continue to limit how high they jump, because they don't know that circumstances have changed, and they actually have a choice.

I am an athlete with very practical martial arts skills. You don't Think a gang of us could stop you from having choices? We could leave you with a lot of choices: M&Ms, Cocopuffs, Marsbars. That's not choice.

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Is there anyway you can describe what your trying to say in layman's terms?

Always working on that. Can you stop your thoughts? Let's say you have to meet a new boss, and you are thinking what to say to him. And you have a week to Think about it. When have you thought about it enough? When has thinking become neurotic avoidance of the fact that there is something outside that contradicts Everything you are thinking with?

Consider this boss. Do your Life-experiences suggest to you that being bullied leads to beco ming the boss? Lot's of bosses say they were bullied. But a boss is someone you may not look at too closely. He has to keep you looking at yourself, or you might Catch on to contradictions of his "earned" authority. Fight your way and f__k your way up, and then pretend you earned it like Jean-luc Picard.

Can anyone stoop so low that it trumps aptitude? Or is it a "gift" or family trait?

Don't leave your head and those rewards we are letting you have is either your decision or not.

Edited by behavioralist
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Aren't you saying that whatever people are concealing from us, on any level we let them occupy, they cannot diminish our lives to that Point where love is not an option?

Well, ask yourself, can you truly love someone and see them as they are? Can you see them as they are in the diminished state you thought of in that sentence I quote now? Aren't you and I talking about the kinda things where you dont see people as they truly are? (this is a relative issue but compare it to someone with actually clear head) Isn't it loving an illusion? Also, I think love changes. Everything in this world changes, or evolves, transforms. Only if you see each others as you truly are well enough, you can see what's always there in good and bad.

You ask a good question but we are motivated and empowered by different things. You seem to be by passion? There's a lot of other things like not allowing yourself to be weak, self-respect, vision, idealism, trust, fairness, justice (so many people use this word with ill context it makes me think it a curse-word sometimes) and life-force itself. It's never gonna be one flag under which we all march. It's good to have solutions but solutions that work... motivation that works...

To change you need a choise. I dont know if love can exist without the choise, but I know it's not the same if you leave the choise out. You can eat rotten, green, most sour meat and call it food for whatever reason but that doesn't make it much of a food in my eyes.

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Evolution sweetens universally, even in its predation. Are there enough parks for your liking? Why not move to the slums and see how it is to have so few parks that the squirrels have all died out. No parks reflect perfectly the Daily grind of a crack-hooker. Anyone who is not passionate about nature has no love to refer to when addressing the subject.

Here we are on Internet, most of us not aware how priveleged that makes us. Are the starving, the besieged and defiled screaming here? I grew up in privelege, and I did not consider it seeing the world. Even princess Di was afraid what it was making her own Children into.

You're also talking about love towards other things: nature, other people. Can you make someone love animals by making them live in a city where there's none except maybe a rare chihuahua here and there? Can you make a single lonely man love someone else just because they're unhappy and dont have anyone? Nope...

You love because you get to known to them, because you see them as they are. That why the pine cone thing, love grows the more you learn to know the other.

I dont know if love is impossible in the domain of inescapable evil, I've never tried. But I doubt there's any truly inescapable evil. Just a lot of people doing nothing bout it. People who proclaim they have choise and moral ethics. I guess it's a different matter, to what extent. But here's what I think people dont understand: there's trouble in every life, both when you're a millionaire and when you're a poor sick food-deprived child from Africa. Having trouble in your life can't be the excuse. If you know there's a village where you might get fed and treated better, make a run there even if you have to run through a minefield. Choise. If you have those millions, it's not hard to hire some people and go build up the 3rd world country and give the land back to people. If you're an ordinary person you can still do it because land is cheap there. If you want more choises in your life it's just a matter of seeking that kinda life out. It's out there.

It's just never easy because of how we live now. I dont know what you see in your writing there, but I see problems that could be fixed, I dont see an unfixable problem in this world. Not the kind of one that'd be impossible to alleviate. Totally fix, no, alleviate, yes to great extent. You need to have the will to get up.

How is all this related to love? Because to love, you need to be alive. And to be alive, is to take life. Which means taking love, taking potential to love, taking will to love. Or does it mean that, or just killing the one who had the will and potential to love, and maybe love too? Love and survival, they support each other but are also at odds. Inescapably. But I dont see that as a bad thing, it's just a matter of respecting life of those who you gonna kill and eat, a matter of giving them a decent life. A matter of giving a decent life to those who have supported you, the chinese in shoe sweatshops and whatnot. To give them like they give us. That's why love cannot rule this world without some equality, fairness and justice. Love needs a lot of things to support it, to nurture it.

And I dont know if those things can be taken away by some ultimate evil, I think you can make others just forget them, or hinder others from upholding those things. But you can't make them go away forever. They exist always, it's just a matter of manifesting them.

And I know about the hard choises and about giving to others... I been there.

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Well, ask yourself, can you truly love someone and see them as they are? Can you see them as they are in the diminished state you thought of in that sentence I quote now? Aren't you and I talking about the kinda things where you dont see people as they truly are? (this is a relative issue but compare it to someone with actually clear head) Isn't it loving an illusion? Also, I think love changes. Everything in this world changes, or evolves, transforms. Only if you see each others as you truly are well enough, you can see what's always there in good and bad.

You ask a good question but we are motivated and empowered by different things. You seem to be by passion? There's a lot of other things like not allowing yourself to be weak, self-respect, vision, idealism, trust, fairness, justice (so many people use this word with ill context it makes me think it a curse-word sometimes) and life-force itself. It's never gonna be one flag under which we all march. It's good to have solutions but solutions that work... motivation that works...

To change you need a choise. I dont know if love can exist without the choise, but I know it's not the same if you leave the choise out. You can eat rotten, green, most sour meat and call it food for whatever reason but that doesn't make it much of a food in my eyes.

It's been an axiom of psychology all along that to see someone as they are is the only actual love available, if it is available. It is perhaps the origin of the "cruel to be kind" ideal. Nothing is more cruel than to let each other get away with stuff, and take each others's masks at "face-value".

Edited by behavioralist

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You're also talking about love towards other things: nature, other people. Can you make someone love animals by making them live in a city where there's none except maybe a rare chihuahua here and there? Can you make a single lonely man love someone else just because they're unhappy and dont have anyone? Nope...

You love because you get to known to them, because you see them as they are. That why the pine cone thing, love grows the more you learn to know the other.

I dont know if love is impossible in the domain of inescapable evil, I've never tried. But I doubt there's any truly inescapable evil. Just a lot of people doing nothing bout it. People who proclaim they have choise and moral ethics. I guess it's a different matter, to what extent. But here's what I think people dont understand: there's trouble in every life, both when you're a millionaire and when you're a poor sick food-deprived child from Africa. Having trouble in your life can't be the excuse. If you know there's a village where you might get fed and treated better, make a run there even if you have to run through a minefield. Choise. If you have those millions, it's not hard to hire some people and go build up the 3rd world country and give the land back to people. If you're an ordinary person you can still do it because land is cheap there. If you want more choises in your life it's just a matter of seeking that kinda life out. It's out there.

It's just never easy because of how we live now. I dont know what you see in your writing there, but I see problems that could be fixed, I dont see an unfixable problem in this world. Not the kind of one that'd be impossible to alleviate. Totally fix, no, alleviate, yes to great extent. You need to have the will to get up.

How is all this related to love? Because to love, you need to be alive. And to be alive, is to take life. Which means taking love, taking potential to love, taking will to love. Or does it mean that, or just killing the one who had the will and potential to love, and maybe love too? Love and survival, they support each other but are also at odds. Inescapably. But I dont see that as a bad thing, it's just a matter of respecting life of those who you gonna kill and eat, a matter of giving them a decent life. A matter of giving a decent life to those who have supported you, the chinese in shoe sweatshops and whatnot. To give them like they give us. That's why love cannot rule this world without some equality, fairness and justice. Love needs a lot of things to support it, to nurture it.

And I dont know if those things can be taken away by some ultimate evil, I think you can make others just forget them, or hinder others from upholding those things. But you can't make them go away forever. They exist always, it's just a matter of manifesting them.

And I know about the hard choises and about giving to others... I been there.

Think of a dog ten times your size who is set to see to it you stay in your corner. What is it that makes the dog take notice of you? It is if your complacency vacilates! Nice easy steady complacency in your corner is waht the dog wants to see, or it wants to taste your liver with a side of fava beans.

So the quicker a person assumes that Everything comforting he can say, however far from science it may fall, is all there ever will be to say about anything, the quicker he has "befriended" the dog. "Do I really have to keep an Eye on you?" Imagine a billionair who has to keep an Eye on you! How many Eyes has he got? He's a very testy dog!

There is tremendous excitement in making scientific advances of a nature personal to everyone. "A coward dies a thousand Deaths....", but its more like a thousand a day. With science drugs and booze are not comforting but terrible. It isn't like television or Music, where it helps to get mellow first.

And the view of how this science is personal is Always evolving, because Everything is subject to observer effect. You can make a computer stupid or awkward, you can study genetics with misconceptions, you can engineer molecules that will fail if you take your Eyes off them, and cures that will play you, being in fact double-agents. Wanting people to be so complacent that just living in an exclusive neighborhood means you can forget everyone who doesn't is also frustrating when it is these very masses you are counting on.

Edited by behavioralist

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I dont know what the hell you're after, just cut to the chase. What's your point? That there's some ultimate evil which can make us lose love no matter what? You want me to bend to that view or test me endlessly? No thanks.

I can't read from your posts whether you're assuming I live in an ivory tower or if you're just talking in general. I dont imagine a big effing dog because there's things like black bears who have tasted blood already, imagine trapped in a cage with one that's trained, you being unarmed and no sharp objects available. Good enough for you? Something real at least... So what, how did you end there in the first place, has that any relevance? Maybe because you were an a-hole and didn't take someone dangerous person's emotions to account but stomped on them like on the disco floor. Maybe because you owed somebody.

If you wanna talk about animals being in that kinda awful situation, in which many of them are, and ask how I'd feel if I'd be subjected to that and if I could still love. I dont know because I've not experienced it, but I bet I could find a way in most cases, even if the life would be ****ty.

Anyhow, I dont want to talk with you about this ultimate evil thing because you keep saying the same thing in different words. Imagine this and that bad thing and how it's supposed to make life unbearable, unlovable and devoid of all choise. What the hell does that help? What? Tell me... what? How about you take a grip and try think how to make things better instead if you're even interested in that? Because this serves only to bring people down.

Edited by Mikko-kun

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Only a child can imagine a God who is not pleased with its loveless behavior, which is why evangelists always target children. However loving they may be they can always be told it is not loving enough.

Evil has the greatest power over outcome, everything, even the photons, being servile to it. Everything its power can extent to will be helplessly participating in its version of desired outcome, which is a very mortal version of outcome since only humanity has anything immortal in it (evolution). An utterly mortal version of outcome is that the universe is collateral damage. If God spares only one, obviously God only needs that one.

Going deeper into the ideas and studies of evolution , evolution in itself is not scientifically based in fact of law, it is a theoretical source that has been placed in the mind.

Life as you spoke of it is not habit , life is miraculous , beautiful and sweet . It's also sad too , because we love , and when we love , we hurt . I try to treat others the way i would like to be treated myself. I hope that someone will do the same for someone else along the way as well.

I'm not understanding what you're trying to express in what you said about a child and God ??? Are you suggesting that only a child would believe that God would rather a child be kind and gentle towards all life? walk in peace and harmony ? bestow respect and humanity for all ? feed the hungry , care for the sick , help one another ? have compassion and love in our hearts and minds?

^

Are you saying that pastors target children to think like that ? Children will learn the most about God right from their very homes in which they live in, not from pastors, but from their Mothers and Fathers .

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Going deeper into the ideas and studies of evolution , evolution in itself is not scientifically based in fact of law, it is a theoretical source that has been placed in the mind.

Life as you spoke of it is not habit , life is miraculous , beautiful and sweet . It's also sad too , because we love , and when we love , we hurt . I try to treat others the way i would like to be treated myself. I hope that someone will do the same for someone else along the way as well.

I'm not understanding what you're trying to express in what you said about a child and God ??? Are you suggesting that only a child would believe that God would rather a child be kind and gentle towards all life? walk in peace and harmony ? bestow respect and humanity for all ? feed the hungry , care for the sick , help one another ? have compassion and love in our hearts and minds?

^

Are you saying that pastors target children to think like that ? Children will learn the most about God right from their very homes in which they live in, not from pastors, but from their Mothers and Fathers .

The artifice of suspecting a statement of ambiguity is useful in conversation, because in those the words employed are flleeting and hence subject to creating a mere impression, while here they become an archive. The question, "are you saying" is subject to simple rereading, and any inclination not to do so becomes quirky. Just "speaking" as a psychologist! After all, what are we here for but to be someone different in some way from each other? My difference is that I don't really play along even if I don't bother to mention it.

God has only Children; man has only captives. God's Children may be killed for their mistakes; captivity is a new kind of mistake (except in species that don't really mind; whose lives are virtually impossible to diminish). No one has a Life in captivity no matter how many avenues the captors describe toward freedom.

Debunking the touted notions of freedom, it becomes something absolutely unheard of and mystical (in the realm of what reason finds chaotic), and very unpopular since captivity is replete with opiates, and the gratified captives who have found them.

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I am an athlete with very practical martial arts skills. You don't Think a gang of us could stop you from having choices? We could leave you with a lot of choices: M&Ms, Cocopuffs, Marsbars. That's not choice.

That's pretty extreme, forcing me to eat sugar. Other than in extreme circumstances, yeah, I think we have choices, maybe not about events that occur in our lives, but in how we choose to respond to them.

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