Pre-Tribs & Dispensationalists

[buckskin scout]

What have you to say to these two contradicting passages:

When is the First Resurrection? At The Pre-Tribulation Rapture? Or Post-Tribulation?

A) This passage argues Pre-Trib

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with God's trumpet. The dead in Christ will rise first, then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air. So we will be with the Lord forever.

B ) This passage argues Post-Trib

Revelation 20:4-5

I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn't worship the beast nor his image, and didn't receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived, and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. The rest of the dead didn't live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

Edited February 21, 2014 by GoSC

[Copen]

How about 1Cor.15:52

"At the last trump". There are at least seven trumps in Rev. Which would make resurrection after tribulation.

God bless our search for the truth in scripture.

[buckskin scout]

How about 1Cor.15:52

"At the last trump". There are at least seven trumps in Rev. Which would make resurrection after tribulation.

God bless our search for the truth in scripture.

But what about those that believe in the Rapture... the dead in Christ will rise first!

(Personally I don't believe in a secret Rapture)

[+and-then]

My (limited) understanding is that the first of 2 resurrections will be of the body of Christ i.e. the church era believers. They will rise when he returns to claim his bride. Those who believed from the pre and post church (post rapture martyrs) will be resurrected when he returns physically and claims his Kingship.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days

This was explained to me as evidence that the early believers would be resurrected in some unknown order at Christ's physical return. Again, not a scholar, but I certainly believe in a pre tribulation harpazo. If I am incorrect then I will be ready to suffer what must be suffered, but I believe his bride will not be subjected to HIS wrath. That is not to say we might not suffer in the run up to the great tribulation.

[buckskin scout]

My (limited) understanding is that the first of 2 resurrections will be of the body of Christ i.e. the church era believers. They will rise when he returns to claim his bride. Those who believed from the pre and post church (post rapture martyrs) will be resurrected when he returns physically and claims his Kingship.

Daniel 12:13 But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days

This was explained to me as evidence that the early believers would be resurrected in some unknown order at Christ's physical return. Again, not a scholar, but I certainly believe in a pre tribulation harpazo. If I am incorrect then I will be ready to suffer what must be suffered, but I believe his bride will not be subjected to HIS wrath. That is not to say we might not suffer in the run up to the great tribulation.

But according to pre-Tribs Jesus resurrects the church at the Rapture (a la the First Resurrection)? 1 Thess. 4:16-17

And according to Rev. 20:4-5, the First Resurrection occurs after the Tribulation?

Are there two "First" Resurrections?

Also according to some Dispys and Pre-Tribs, in 2 Thess. 2:1-7, the Restrainer is the Holy Spirit who will be removed before the man of sin is revealed in verse 7 BUT in verses 1 & 3 of this passage, the man of sin will be revealed BEFORE our gathering together with Lord? So in essence this verse according to this theology:

1. The Holy Spirit abandons the world

2. The man of sin is revealed

3. We are gathered together with the Lord

See the errors?

[+Paranoid Android]

I'm wondering how many pre-trib Christians are actually regularly active in these forums. I've seen some turn up from time to time, perhaps some return now and then, but as a whole, how many people this thread actually refers to, I'm honestly not sure

Not that the question isn't valid. Eschatology has interested people for close to 2 thousand years. But I'm not sure how many advocates of this singular view you'll find arguing the point on a board like this. Just saying

Edited February 21, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[buckskin scout]

I'm wondering how many pre-trib Christians are actually regularly active in these forums. I've seen some turn up from time to time, perhaps some return now and then, but as a whole, how many people this thread actually refers to, I'm honestly not sure

Not that the question isn't valid. Eschatology has interested people for close to 2 thousand years. But I'm not sure how many advocates of this singular view you'll find arguing the point on a board like this. Just saying

Well I know there are plenty of Christians about and those interested in theological discussions. I am definitely eager to read responses from Pre-Tribs, I am a partial-Preterist leaning towards amillennialism.

[Sundew]

The rapture is thought by many to precede the second coming of Christ with the seven year Tribulation period in between. One reason is that in Scripture, God has removed people from harm before an outpouring of his wrath upon the Earth. Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:9, "For God did not appoint us (i.e. believers) to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Enoch was apparently raptured prior to the Biblical flood. Noah and his relatives were placed inside an ark before the same event. Lot and his family were told to leave the plain before the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Note that these were widespread or even global events and this is not saying that every time something bad is about to happen God steps in and removes people from harm (consider Job), that is not a Biblical view, God's wrath is quite different from the day to day troubles, even quite bad ones, that we experience on the Earth.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I personally think this is a non-issue. It just doesn't seem sensible or practical to me to debate these matters. I am more interested in the 'right-now' as opposed to the 'not-yet.'

I don't know how or when these things are going to happen and frankly I don't care. I trust God.

What I do see is a broken and suffering world that needs the healing power of Christ....in the present moment; not in some eschatological end. This is my concern.

Practice the Kingdom in the NOW and we will be ready when the Kingdom is fully realized; however or whenever it happens.

[buckskin scout]

The rapture is thought by many to precede the second coming of Christ with the seven year Tribulation period in between. One reason is that in Scripture, God has removed people from harm before an outpouring of his wrath upon the Earth. Paul says in I Thessalonians 5:9, "For God did not appoint us (i.e. believers) to wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ." Enoch was apparently raptured prior to the Biblical flood. Noah and his relatives were placed inside an ark before the same event. Lot and his family were told to leave the plain before the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed. Note that these were widespread or even global events and this is not saying that every time something bad is about to happen God steps in and removes people from harm (consider Job), that is not a Biblical view, God's wrath is quite different from the day to day troubles, even quite bad ones, that we experience on the Earth.

But what Pre-Tribs overlook is verses 2-8 of that passage.

Romans 11:22, "but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

[buckskin scout]

I personally think this is a non-issue. It just doesn't seem sensible or practical to me to debate these matters. I am more interested in the 'right-now' as opposed to the 'not-yet.'

I don't know how or when these things are going to happen and frankly I don't care. I trust God.

What I do see is a broken and suffering world that needs the healing power of Christ....in the present moment; not in some eschatological end. This is my concern.

Practice the Kingdom in the NOW and we will be ready when the Kingdom is fully realized; however or whenever it happens.

To avoid damnable heresies. To say Christ is going to reign on earth in the future when in fact he reigning right now in heaven is a pretty illogical theology. Because when Christ returns the resurrection occurs and His final enemy ... death is defeated ...and then He hands up the throne to His father. But the fact remains Christ is reigning right in Heaven upon the throne of David. His kingdom is not of this world. Remember the Israelites asked for a king and would not have God rule over them. So you have the throne of David which was originally God's throne and Christ sits on that same throne. God has taken the throne of David that was rightly His to begin with, and sat His Son upon in Heaven.

But Pre-Tribs have Christ without a throne now and that there will a future 1,000 year kingdom with Christ simultaneously reigning over mortal sinners and immortal rapture resurrected saints in a Semi-Golden Age.

That same is a dangerous doctrine, demonic even, to deceive the masses.

Edited February 22, 2014 by GoSC

[Marcus Aurelius]

GoSC; I do agree with you there. I too feel that the whole pre-trib rapture is bad theology and is a dangerous doctrine. It sells a lot of books.

I think it gets people because on a subconscious level we see the suffering in the world and in our own lives that it becomes appealing. We hope that we will somehow be rescued and whisked away from all our troubles.

I would want no part of such a doctrine or scenario. I want to help people, not be taken away from them...

[buckskin scout]

GoSC; I do agree with you there. I too feel that the whole pre-trib rapture is bad theology and is a dangerous doctrine. It sells a lot of books.

I think it gets people because on a subconscious level we see the suffering in the world and in our own lives that it becomes appealing. We hope that we will somehow be rescued and whisked away from all our troubles.

I would want no part of such a doctrine or scenario. I want to help people, not be taken away from them...

Indeed it is.

It pulls a believers attention away from the center of our faith which is Christ Jesus and winning souls with gospel into what one brother in Christ called "Headline News Exegesis".

It has believers watching Israel instead watching for Christ. Where war is more encouraging than peace. Watching for a heap of ruins, eyes to melt, blood running as high as horse's bridle, and 2/3 of the human race perishing rather than the glorious return of our saviour. Openly accepting of the reinstitution of animal sacrifice trampling the cross of Christ underfoot.

Little do they comprehend that the tent of David is their neighborhood church. Our meeting places of worship and fellowship in the body of Christ, we are the living stones of the temple of the living God. The time has arrived that we no longer worship God on that mountain or in Jerusalem but in the spirit where ever two or three are gathered in His name. Christ entered the tabernacle not made with human hands and the veil was His flesh by which we too can enter that same tabernacle.

To return to the blood of animals and tabernacle made with human hands.....

[Copen]

It would seem to me that He is our great high priest mediating for His elect on earth. But He has not come as king and conqueror on earth,yet. As long as the devil is here Christ is not reigning in the kingship authority,yet.

Many think God would not let Christians go thru tribulation because He would not want us to suffer. But the trail is crimson red from the shed blood of Christians at the beginning of the NT era.

Plus, look at the suffering Jews have gone thru. You think that was because they rejected god? Bible says they were blinded so they couldn't see and understand in order to graft the Gentiles in.

If Christians ever come to realize how pagan they have become while still worshipping Him; they would see why they are going to go thru tribulation.

[Bluefinger]

GOSC and Marcus Aurelius,

I just want you guys to know that I am so encouraged by what you both have been writing concerning this topic and concerning helping the world heal rather than being excited that it's dying.

[+and-then]

Indeed it is.

It pulls a believers attention away from the center of our faith which is Christ Jesus and winning souls with gospel into what one brother in Christ called "Headline News Exegesis".

It has believers watching Israel instead watching for Christ. Where war is more encouraging than peace. Watching for a heap of ruins, eyes to melt, blood running as high as horse's bridle, and 2/3 of the human race perishing rather than the glorious return of our saviour. Openly accepting of the reinstitution of animal sacrifice trampling the cross of Christ underfoot.

Little do they comprehend that the tent of David is their neighborhood church. Our meeting places of worship and fellowship in the body of Christ, we are the living stones of the temple of the living God. The time has arrived that we no longer worship God on that mountain or in Jerusalem but in the spirit where ever two or three are gathered in His name. Christ entered the tabernacle not made with human hands and the veil was His flesh by which we too can enter that same tabernacle.

To return to the blood of animals and tabernacle made with human hands.....

But believers in Christ will never do sch things. They know that animal blood (ANY other blood) is useless and that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient, once for all. THAT is precisely why the end time events are Israel centric and are concerning God finishing his work with the Jews. They do not yet accept the Lord but they will. As to when the church will be raptured I do not know, I simply hope to survive until I see him coming in the clouds (if I'm not with him then!) Those who believe we can save the world through our works are well intentioned and I admire the work they do. They are misguided, however, if they slip into thinking they can do this absent God's desire. He never said we were to fix everything before he came back - our sole commission is to tell people the good news, plant the seed. HE takes care of the rest. Until we meet him, after death or in the air, our job is to love and minister to the needs of our fellows. ALL our fellows... not just those we deem to be righteous.

[buckskin scout]

It would seem to me that He is our great high priest mediating for His elect on earth. But He has not come as king and conqueror on earth,yet. As long as the devil is here Christ is not reigning in the kingship authority,yet.

Many think God would not let Christians go thru tribulation because He would not want us to suffer. But the trail is crimson red from the shed blood of Christians at the beginning of the NT era.

Plus, look at the suffering Jews have gone thru. You think that was because they rejected god? Bible says they were blinded so they couldn't see and understand in order to graft the Gentiles in.

If Christians ever come to realize how pagan they have become while still worshipping Him; they would see why they are going to go thru tribulation.

Why isn't Christ reigning in heaven upon the Throne of David right now?

1 Samuel 8:6-7, 12:12-13,17

But the thing displeased Samuel, when they said, Give us a king to judge us. And Samuel prayed unto the Lord.

 And the Lord said unto Samuel, Hearken unto the voice of the people in all that they say unto thee: for they have not rejected thee, but they have rejected me, that I should not reign over them.

And when ye saw that Nahash the king of the children of Ammon came against you, ye said unto me, Nay; but a king shall reign over us: when the Lord your God was your king.

Now therefore behold the king whom ye have chosen, and whom ye have desired! and, behold, the Lord hath set a king over you.

Is it not wheat harvest to day? I will call unto the Lord, and he shall send thunder and rain; that ye may perceive and see that your wickedness is great, which ye have done in the sight of the Lord, in asking you a king.

1 Chronicles 28:5, 29:23

And of all my sons, (for the Lord hath given me many sons,) he hath chosen Solomon my son to sit upon the throne of the kingdom of the Lord over Israel.

Then Solomon sat on the throne of the Lord as king instead of David his father, and prospered; and all Israel obeyed him.

Luke 1:32-33

He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:

And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end.

1 Timothy 1:17.

Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.

1 Peter 3:21-22

The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Who is gone into heaven, and is on the right hand of God; angels and authorities and powers being made subject unto him.

Revelation 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Can the scriptures be anymore explicit, through Dispensationalism and the Rapture both were created by Darby in the 19th Century and propagated and popularized by C I Scofield and others, is slipping false doctrines into the churches under the spiritual discerning vision of millions of Christians today.

[buckskin scout]

GOSC and Marcus Aurelius,

I just want you guys to know that I am so encouraged by what you both have been writing concerning this topic and concerning helping the world heal rather than being excited that it's dying.

Thank you and God bless brother!

[buckskin scout]

But believers in Christ will never do sch things. They know that animal blood (ANY other blood) is useless and that Christ's sacrifice was sufficient, once for all. THAT is precisely why the end time events are Israel centric and are concerning God finishing his work with the Jews. They do not yet accept the Lord but they will. As to when the church will be raptured I do not know, I simply hope to survive until I see him coming in the clouds (if I'm not with him then!) Those who believe we can save the world through our works are well intentioned and I admire the work they do. They are misguided, however, if they slip into thinking they can do this absent God's desire. He never said we were to fix everything before he came back - our sole commission is to tell people the good news, plant the seed. HE takes care of the rest. Until we meet him, after death or in the air, our job is to love and minister to the needs of our fellows. ALL our fellows... not just those we deem to be righteous.

Most of you said is absolutely true. But please remember there is no more difference between the Jews and Gentiles who reject Christ. They will receive the same judgments according to their works.

But the old testament prophecies have either been fulfilled in Christ and His church, or will be fulfilled by Christ and His Christ, or fulfilled already by previous incarnations of the Jewish nation.

[buckskin scout]

Interesting facts on Rev. 20:1-6, the proposed millennial kingdom of Christ believed in by pre-Tribs and Dispensationalists.

This passage never mentions the following:

1. The second coming of Christ

2. The bodily resurrection (yes, First Resurrection but not a bodily resurrection)

3. A reign on earth

4. A literal throne of David

5. Jerusalem in the land of Palestine

6. Christ on earth

Also, of the 31,173 verses in the 66 books in the whole entire Bible, only the six consecutive verses mention a millennium.

What is it:

31,167 < 6?

Or

31,167 > 6?

[+and-then]

GOSC and Marcus Aurelius,

I just want you guys to know that I am so encouraged by what you both have been writing concerning this topic and concerning helping the world heal rather than being excited that it's dying.

This is a fundamental mischaracterization of most evangelicals I think. Though I can only speak for myself. I am not excited about the judgment that is coming on the world but I AM excited that it means our Lord will soon come to make things better here. I believe we have a real obligation to love and care for all but I also know that the vast majority of mankind does not WANT to bend a knee to God or live in harmony with their brothers. Those who believe otherwise may be well intentioned but they ignore scripture. To believe that this generation of humanity is somehow superior morally or intellectually to all that came before is simply another manifestation of pride IMO.

[buckskin scout]

Bottomline, Darby and C.I. Scofield have corrupted the scriptures with their Rapture and Dispensationalism doctrines, don't believe me?

[+and-then]

Bottomline, Darby and C.I. Scofield have corrupted the scriptures with their Rapture and Dispensationalism doctrines, don't believe me?

This whole controversy confuses me. I don't really understand what difference it makes or why people feel the need to argue and even get angry over it. All Christians can agree he will return. If he does not return according to the expectations of some and they turn away then they were never his to begin with. For myself, I hope for a rapture so that I do not have to suffer - and more importantly - watch my loved ones suffer. But no other group of believers in history have been spared this. I pray only for the strength to abide until I see him.

[buckskin scout]

This whole controversy confuses me. I don't really understand what difference it makes or why people feel the need to argue and even get angry over it. All Christians can agree he will return. If he does not return according to the expectations of some and they turn away then they were never his to begin with. For myself, I hope for a rapture so that I do not have to suffer - and more importantly - watch my loved ones suffer. But no other group of believers in history have been spared this. I pray only for the strength to abide until I see him.

I understand, I used to be a pre-millennial Rapture believer until I learned it isn't scriptural. Based upon some pretty flimsy suppositions.

Here is Steve Gregg who took phone call in the previous doing a lecture on Rev. 20. He is an amillennialist like myself. Excellent video! Look him up on YouTube.

Peace and grace!

[buckskin scout]

A blogging Lutheran critiques dispensationalism:

http://justandsinner.blogspot.com/2013/11/a-critique-of-dispensationalism.html?m=1

Christians, this message is well worth listening to!