Will the Antichrist be from Europe?

[+DieChecker]

On 11/29/2017 at 3:39 PM, Guyver said:

In any event, the wording of the Revelation makes it quite clear that the prophecy was considered to be happening in the life times of those who would hear the prophecy.  That means the antichrist was supposed to be doing his thing 2000 years ago.  

This is confirmed by other bible sources, not the least of which is Saint John's First Epistle, second chapter which claims that it was the last hour because the antichrist was already coming.  Since it didn't happen.....it's clear that these were false prophecies and shouldn't be considered real.

Why don't Christians or even other people seem to understand this?  

I suspect people do understand it. I know I've puzzled over it. But since so much is from an oral tradition, it is hard to say if the meaning of such words were to be factual, or symbolic. 

I'd suspect most people don't believe Revelation happened yet, because history doesn't show such a world wide... humanity wide... event. That not all of the things in Revelation appear to have happened. Unless... some of the things are also symbolic and not factual, such as angels blowing trumpets and such. Then if that is true, how can we then go back and demand that the term "days", must be true, but everything else is symbolic?

On 11/30/2017 at 6:33 AM, Guyver said:

You've placed the emphasis on people bringing this judgment upon ourselves and de-emphasized the act of "God" in killing people; but that's the fact of the message of the prophecies.  Does that satisfy my point and your question?  

Depends. If we assume God is real and He's going to kill us all... Then that has to assume we all have an Immortal Soul, right? So, then we aren't being actually killed, we're being moved into a new form of existence, like a baby being born. Is it a crime when a doctor brings a baby into the world? The baby HAD to come eventually, right? Assuming God and a human Soul... We have to have a Final Judgement.

On 11/30/2017 at 6:52 AM, Guyver said:

An inadequate answer if the bible is a divine work.  

I am not of the opinion that the Bible is the unshakable "WORD OF GOD!!!". I'm of the opinion that it is the God inspired writings of the first Christians and their recollections of what Jesus taught, and what they to were inspired to teach. People that try to insist that the discrepancies between the various Gospels are not discrepancies are not doing themselves any favors. Men wrote the Bible, not God.

On 12/1/2017 at 8:48 PM, Guyver said:

If God exists, then there's only two possibilities as I see.  But maybe, many of you are much smarter than I am, and you can express more truth.  

1.  God controls everything and everyone that exists.  

2.  God chooses to allow everything that exists to be as it is, for whatever reason that may be.  

3.  Or there is no God and the universe arose by chance.  

Wait, but you wrote down three possibilities. If forced to, I'd pick the second one. God exists, created everything, allows it to roll along on its own inertia, and peaks down from time to time, answering a few prayers here and there.

There is another possibility. That everything that happens is part of God's Plan. The difference between that and choice #1 is that we are not slaves. We get to do what we want. However there is nothing that happens that God hasn't already seen and planned out the end result. 

On 12/1/2017 at 8:52 PM, Guyver said:

But to believe that God would send the antichrist upon you and torture you because you're not Christian is to believe that God is less moral than any parent, or any decent human being. 

That is the view from a human morality based on limited human existance. Assuming God is real, his view is from all directions at once, and He has all the data that ever existed. Who (assuming God is real) would then be able to make the better choices?

Quote

I would never allow a known serial killer to babysit my children, but you want me to believe that God would send a psychopathic killer like the antichrist to have reign over the Earth, torture me, kill me, and cause me to go to hell forever?

I mean seriously.  I wouldn't cause my worst enemy to suffer long periods of torture, and I don't even have any enemies that I know of.  Except serial killers.  They like to do that.  They like to bind people up, torture them, and cause them to live in this state as long as they can.

And you want me to believe that God is like a serial killer?  Your mind is effed up.  

Assume God is like a serial killed, but that the serial killer says you can go your own way if you simply eat a french fry that he has in his hand? Do you eat the fry and go on your way, or do you stubbornly refuse his offer and let him torture and kill you? 

Plus... Assuming God is real again... That means you have an Immortal Soul and that sending the AntiChrist is simply like turning a baby in the womb so that it is in a favorable position to be born.

I often wonder what "Slavery Rules" people are referring to. Myself, I consider myself a good Christian. I don't not eat anything for my religion. I don't obey almost all of the Old Testament laws. Even if I did, I'm saved by Jesus, and basically have to simply admit my sin and ask forgiveness. BLAME... Going to Heaven. Written in the Book of Life.

Really, what is so very Onerous in being a Christian? You don't have to be a Bible Thumping, Brimstone Spewing, Gay/Woman/Jew hater.

[Sir Smoke aLot]

On 12/3/2017 at 7:27 PM, RavenHawk said:

I know I view it objectively and I am impressed by the research Richardson has put into it.  I don’t know how many years he has put into but it is clearly several.

Considering your stance towards Islam i do not believe in your objectivity regarding this subject. Sorry for late reply.

I believe that everything important has been said here, regarding point which i made earlier. Again, if you can not accept one simple fact about Joel's work which he made without any source which backs up his claims. Author, in this case, has found source in his imagination and prejudice.

On 12/3/2017 at 7:27 PM, RavenHawk said:

You always want to claim that he has an agenda but you are blind to your agenda. 

Agenda is term which is being applied wrongly here. I wrote about this subject because i believe that a lot of lies about Islam are present and are being spread with intention to induce hatred between Muslims and non Muslims. Such stance towards Islam is especially evident since late 1990s, from Mr. Bibi's book about terror. '' Islamic Antichrist '' we talked about is one of those lies by my opinion, it's one part of larger scheme.

On 12/3/2017 at 7:27 PM, RavenHawk said:

Then use Ayahs to show where he is cherry-picking.

I've explained that for three times here already. Every question you asked I've already addressed in my first post about the subject here. 

Your statement kinda proves my point because, again, there is no mention of either Mahdi or Al Dajjal in Qur'an. They are not mentioned explicitly in Qur'an at all. Only several Hadiths about era of Imam Mahdi exist. Do you know what is Ayah and what is Hadith?

I was sure that you know the subject well since you are talking about it. This ain't hard to understand and it's essential for any approach towards review of this book as scholarly work. By distracting from such essential fact you are actually admitting that Joel's books is fiction work, fairy tale and nothing else. To write book about Algebra one has to know it perfectly.

Imagine if author of literature in the field of Physics would use Mahabharatha as basis for his book? Such strategy has no place in academic world.

[jmccr8]

3 hours ago, DieChecker said:

I suspect people do understand it. I know I've puzzled over it. But since so much is from an oral tradition, it is hard to say if the meaning of such words were to be factual, or symbolic. 

I'd suspect most people don't believe Revelation happened yet, because history doesn't show such a world wide... humanity wide... event. That not all of the things in Revelation appear to have happened. Unless... some of the things are also symbolic and not factual, such as angels blowing trumpets and such. Then if that is true, how can we then go back and demand that the term "days", must be true, but everything else is symbolic?

Depends. If we assume God is real and He's going to kill us all... Then that has to assume we all have an Immortal Soul, right? So, then we aren't being actually killed, we're being moved into a new form of existence, like a baby being born. Is it a crime when a doctor brings a baby into the world? The baby HAD to come eventually, right? Assuming God and a human Soul... We have to have a Final Judgement.

I am not of the opinion that the Bible is the unshakable "WORD OF GOD!!!". I'm of the opinion that it is the God inspired writings of the first Christians and their recollections of what Jesus taught, and what they to were inspired to teach. People that try to insist that the discrepancies between the various Gospels are not discrepancies are not doing themselves any favors. Men wrote the Bible, not God.

Wait, but you wrote down three possibilities. If forced to, I'd pick the second one. God exists, created everything, allows it to roll along on its own inertia, and peaks down from time to time, answering a few prayers here and there.

There is another possibility. That everything that happens is part of God's Plan. The difference between that and choice #1 is that we are not slaves. We get to do what we want. However there is nothing that happens that God hasn't already seen and planned out the end result. 

That is the view from a human morality based on limited human existance. Assuming God is real, his view is from all directions at once, and He has all the data that ever existed. Who (assuming God is real) would then be able to make the better choices?

Assume God is like a serial killed, but that the serial killer says you can go your own way if you simply eat a french fry that he has in his hand? Do you eat the fry and go on your way, or do you stubbornly refuse his offer and let him torture and kill you? 

Plus... Assuming God is real again... That means you have an Immortal Soul and that sending the AntiChrist is simply like turning a baby in the womb so that it is in a favorable position to be born.

I often wonder what "Slavery Rules" people are referring to. Myself, I consider myself a good Christian. I don't not eat anything for my religion. I don't obey almost all of the Old Testament laws. Even if I did, I'm saved by Jesus, and basically have to simply admit my sin and ask forgiveness. BLAME... Going to Heaven. Written in the Book of Life.

Really, what is so very Onerous in being a Christian? You don't have to be a Bible Thumping, Brimstone Spewing, Gay/Woman/Jew hater.

Diechecker,

The are not many Chrisians that will engage a debate as you do and I appreciate the way that you express your position. I see the bible as a guide book that is frequently abused just like any other religious texts. I don't enter a discussion to demean someone's belief but do like to see hows other's define how they see these teachings and express them in a debate.

jmccr8

[Guyver]

6 hours ago, DieChecker said:

 

I am not of the opinion that the Bible is the unshakable "WORD OF GOD!!!". I'm of the opinion that it is the God inspired writings of the first Christians and their recollections of what Jesus taught, and what they to were inspired to teach. People that try to insist that the discrepancies between the various Gospels are not discrepancies are not doing themselves any favors. Men wrote the Bible, not God.

Really, what is so very Onerous in being a Christian? You don't have to be a Bible Thumping, Brimstone Spewing, Gay/Woman/Jew hater.

Well, this is a much more reasonable opinion about it than many people have.  Maybe not on this forum so much, but I've seen plenty of religious extremism with respect to the bible, and used to have those beliefs myself.  It is true that symbolic language is used in the bible, as well as poetic....and especially in the Revelation.  

But, I guess my main problem with it now is that whole notion of "the Good Book." You know, this phrased is often used in reference to the bible, it's the good book.  But, if the preconceived notions, opinions and beliefs are removed, and one simply reads it flat out with an open mind......there's a lot in there that makes me think it's not a "good book."  

And people are not always "good people" so I understand that from a man's perspective....the book contains the whole essence of humanity, the good the bad and the ugly.  In this sense, the bible does make more sense.....but this perspective is certainly different from the people who literally believe that God wrote the bible.  

[Tatetopa]

On 12/3/2017 at 5:07 PM, Opus Magnus said:

It actually bothers me eating meat without knowing how it feels to kill the animal being eaten. It seems like the cattle deserve that wisdom in us, instead of being distantly slaughtered. It also seems bad to us, like an important life lesson is stolen; the knowledge of how it feels to kill your food. Because someone is killing them, it's part of the process, so we're just as guilty for partaking.

Very good point. It is bad for us when life becomes so inconsequential, our life is diminished also.

[+Hammerclaw]

Life is never inconsequential--life feeds on life--and every type of lifeform makes demands and contributions toward that end. It is the way of nature, neither good nor bad. 

[+and-then]

On 12/3/2017 at 2:00 PM, Truthseeker007 said:

Read the Ten Commandments, then read on for several chapters, and you will notice that where as you are informed that the Lord commanded that: "thou shalt not kill", within a few verses later, the Lord is also explaining that if a man does not behave in a certain manner, he shall be killed and other actions shall be taken against his property, and in some cases, against his family.The Lord also, at a point, asked that the first born son be sacrificed, and, at other points, assisted these people in slaying their enemies.Yea no contradictions there.lol!

The word that is used can also be translated as "murder" or essentially, "to lie in wait" (premeditation).  There is a clear difference between committing murder and defending one's family or life.  Those who choose to parse the meaning of God's words so that they can find excuses to ignore them are wasting their time.  Believe and obey or just ignore and do as you will.  IOW, just make a choice...

[Piney]

5 hours ago, and then said:

The word that is used can also be translated as "murder" or essentially, "to lie in wait" (premeditation).  There is a clear difference between committing murder and defending one's family or life.  Those who choose to parse the meaning of God's words so that they can find excuses to ignore them are wasting their time.  Believe and obey or just ignore and do as you will.  IOW, just make a choice...

The Algonquian view on it is "Do not take life unnecessarily. Only for survival". Anything else is murder. 

[Truthseeker007]

5 hours ago, and then said:

The word that is used can also be translated as "murder" or essentially, "to lie in wait" (premeditation).  There is a clear difference between committing murder and defending one's family or life.  Those who choose to parse the meaning of God's words so that they can find excuses to ignore them are wasting their time.  Believe and obey or just ignore and do as you will.  IOW, just make a choice...

Well that is obvious. So you are saying the Lord in the Bible was defending his family when he committed atrocities?

[Opus Magnus]

Even carrots are alive, and have to be killed in order to eat. The only real alternative to killing is fruit, which is a gift, and maybe unfertalized eggs and milk.

But the seperation between us and killing what we eat seems like desensitization, and kind of vulgar to our beasts of burden. 

Also, some of the PETA videos online are enlightening, even though some of their views are wrong. When even Israel buys their meat from out of country, even though their are laws to keep the meat kosher. Otherwise, I would probably be vegan again, but I figured it would be wrong when these laws are in place. Even though sometimes it seems they stretch the law with strangling the cows sometimes, and many of the processes are cruel to save time and money.

[Rlyeh]

On ‎02‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 0:07 PM, RavenHawk said:

GOD’s wrath can be “murderous” but as you mentioned, it’s justified killing.  I think you might be twisting things.  As I’ve mentioned before, GOD dishes out just punishment (i.e. to those that have earned it).  He doesn’t kill for no reason.  GOD is omniscient.  He knows the heart of each one of us.  He knows who will never believe in him.  He doesn’t interfere with the biological mechanism.  So on Judgment day, he will cull the sheep from the goats. 

Killing a man for collecting sticks on the wrong day is justice?

God is all knowing but doesn't know how he created.. well anything. This god is a testament to human ignorance. 

[jmccr8]

1 hour ago, Opus Magnus said:

Even carrots are alive, and have to be killed in order to eat. The only real alternative to killing is fruit, which is a gift, and maybe unfertalized eggs and milk.

But the seperation between us and killing what we eat seems like desensitization, and kind of vulgar to our beasts of burden. 

Also, some of the PETA videos online are enlightening, even though some of their views are wrong. When even Israel buys their meat from out of country, even though their are laws to keep the meat kosher. Otherwise, I would probably be vegan again, but I figured it would be wrong when these laws are in place. Even though sometimes it seems they stretch the law with strangling the cows sometimes, and many of the processes are cruel to save time and money.

So carrots are alive and fruit isn't?

I don't see eating as a bad thing and yes that hamburger was walking around at one time. I grew up part of the year working on the farm and have butchered animals it is how we live and I don't feel compomised because of it.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

57 minutes ago, Codemonger said:

The Anti-Christ is not a man. It is an influence that is against Christ himself. This has nothing to do specifically with Christianity. As a matter of fact, Christians can become part of the influence of the Anti-Christ. 

If Christ showed up today, and told Christians what to believe, I can guarantee they would have a hard time listening and obeying the Will of God. 

Enjoy!

*snip*

God Bless!

The anti-Christ only exists for those that believe, for others we wonder what makes you believe.

jmccr8

[+Hammerclaw]

3 hours ago, Truthseeker007 said:

Well that is obvious. So you are saying the Lord in the Bible was defending his family when he committed atrocities?

Of course not. That was just tribal interpretation of events and claiming God was on their side.

[Truthseeker007]

1 minute ago, Hammerclaw said:

Of course not. That was just tribal interpretation of events and claiming God was on their side.

Your point makes sense.

[+Hammerclaw]

13 minutes ago, jmccr8 said:

So carrots are alive and fruit isn't?

I don't see eating as a bad thing and yes that hamburger was walking around at one time. I grew up part of the year working on the farm and have butchered animals it is how we live and I don't feel compomised because of it.

jmccr8

If you've never had to go hungry and your food is always provided by someone else, it's easy to get peculiar ideas about what you eat.

[+Hammerclaw]

2 minutes ago, Truthseeker007 said:

Your point makes sense.

Much of the old testament is Jewish history interpreted in that light, almost always after the fact. Either God loved them or God was mad at them, depending on the situation.

[Truthseeker007]

6 minutes ago, Hammerclaw said:

Much of the old testament is Jewish history interpreted in that light, almost always after the fact. Either God loved them or God was mad at them, depending on the situation.

The silly thing is that people still try to follow the Old Testament god. But I guess that is religion for ya. It makes big money on scamming people.

[jmccr8]

12 minutes ago, Codemonger said:

This is not true, the Anti Christ is just as I described it.  Man is not competent enough to make decisions that have a profound impact beyond the very day that they live in. The Antichrist was always thought to be a person that brings death and destruction to the World. Men are very capable of doing this on their own that without one person. The Antichrist is an oppositional force, and opposes everything Christ believes in and stands for. This is not a quote of the Scripture because you would have to first understand that 'Jesus' Christ did not just die for all of mankind's Sins, he died because he was given a choice to remove Man from the face of the Earth and decided against it.

I am not supposed to promote anything ie. social accounts on here; but if you go to my twitter feed, it explains in much greater detail on a simplistic scale. 

Belief has nothing to do with Christ. 

 

It is a bible story so yes it is about those that believe.

jmccr8

[Truthseeker007]

8 minutes ago, Codemonger said:

This is very misunderstood as well. God does not work like that, the Hand of God is very large and destructive - man is very small in nature and nurture. Angels however are a fine line between both and were the ones to Intercede on behalf of God. There is a lot more at play that people are unaware of and always have been. 

There is a untold story of the Jewish People that brings light into why they have continually suffered for a long time. Hopefully that curse will come to an end soon. 

God Bless!

I am sure there may be some kind of angels in another dimension but I don't think God is what you think it is. I sure don't consider the Bible god or any religious god the Ultimate energy or Source of all creation.

Edited December 11, 2017 by Truthseeker007

[+Hammerclaw]

Just now, Codemonger said:

This is very misunderstood as well. God does not work like that, the Hand of God is very large and destructive - man is very small in nature and nurture. Angels however are a fine line between both and were the ones to Intercede on behalf of God. There is a lot more at play that people are unaware of and always have been. 

There is a untold story of the Jewish People that brings light into why they have continually suffered for a long time. Hopefully that curse will come to an end soon. 

God Bless!

Yes, I'm well acquainted with the Sunday School interpretation, having had the good fortune of being raised by a Baptist deacon. God gets blamed or is credited for many things entirely the works of man. I think of God as much greater than the sum of mankind's incessant bickering between it's many groups and do not subscribe to any of it's vain assumptions of divine providence.

[Truthseeker007]

1 minute ago, Codemonger said:

Because you were not there does not mean it did not happen. This Universe is full of things that happen that do not require your belief, this is how small mankind is. 

Understanding what was written was in the eye of the beholder at the time as well as revelations that were presented. There was a lot happening behind the scenes, that have now led up to today as well as in between. The reasoning for this will be revealed to everyone soon. 

God Bless! 

So you subscribe to the concept oh poor little me I am nothing? I happen to believe we are multidimensional entities and have more imagination and power then you can comprehend since you are just a poor little human. That's my opinion anyway.

[Truthseeker007]

1 minute ago, Codemonger said:

Your words make no difference, again have a look at my twitter , read some more ... Chris Chunick. 

There is only one God and yes he created, is, and put in motion this Universe - not the other way around - Man didn't create him. 

God Bless!

 

Your words make no difference also. Sorry but I don't feel the need to read your twitter. I try to stay away from propaganda and I have my own mind. What makes you think God is a he? Explain how this god you talk about put the Universe in motion since you think you know so much about the Universe.

[+Hammerclaw]

7 minutes ago, Truthseeker007 said:

So you subscribe to the concept oh poor little me I am nothing? I happen to believe we are multidimensional entities and have more imagination and power then you can comprehend since you are just a poor little human. That's my opinion anyway.

In one of the apocryphal scriptures Christ is quoted as saying: Spirit begets flesh and that is a miracle. If it were the other way around and flesh begat spirit,, that would be a miracle of miracles! 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Hammerclaw

[Truthseeker007]

3 minutes ago, Codemonger said:

I don't subscribe to anything, I'm not sure what exactly you think I'm promoting.

Humans are not multi dimensional entities, just simply 'sped' up evolution process of Planet of the Apes as children or 'creatures' of God. 

God Bless!

I have to disagree with you on that.