Will the Antichrist be from Europe?

[Sundew]

My memory might be fuzzy, but shouldn't the anti-Christ appear to be like Christ so more then likely a Jew?

That is certainly one theory based on the idea that he will be a false messiah and an imitation of Christ. In fact you have an unholy trinity of evil and an imitation of the Trinity of God: Satan as the father, the antichrist as the son, and the false prophet as the spirit. So it is possible the antichrist could be a jew, since Jesus was jewish, however others have placed him as a type of caesar over a revised Roman empire, and this new theory has him as something along the lines of the 12th Imam and head of a Muslim confederacy, uniting the Muslim world in a caliphate. At some point in his career he makes peace with Israel and then turns on them in an attempted second Holocaust. It is not outside of more radical elements of Islam to want the destruction of the jews, and they have openly stated as much. Prophesy is a bit like being on a river, you can see where you have been but you don't always see clearly where you are going; a river has many twists, turns and tributaries and you can easily miss the main channel.

[+and-then]

That is certainly one theory based on the idea that he will be a false messiah and an imitation of Christ. In fact you have an unholy trinity of evil and an imitation of the Trinity of God: Satan as the father, the antichrist as the son, and the false prophet as the spirit. So it is possible the antichrist could be a jew, since Jesus was jewish, however others have placed him as a type of caesar over a revised Roman empire, and this new theory has him as something along the lines of the 12th Imam and head of a Muslim confederacy, uniting the Muslim world in a caliphate. At some point in his career he makes peace with Israel and then turns on them in an attempted second Holocaust. It is not outside of more radical elements of Islam to want the destruction of the jews, and they have openly stated as much. Prophesy is a bit like being on a river, you can see where you have been but you don't always see clearly where you are going; a river has many twists, turns and tributaries and you can easily miss the main channel.

True - and the purpose of the thread was not to dogmatically advocate either version, just to discuss them. I'm sorry I do not have specific verses to cite in his book but I will try to go back and find them.

[+and-then]

Well, when the Jewish and early Christian writers were speculating about the Apocalypse, they'd have been thinking about the world that they knew, wouldn't they, so of course they'd assume that he'd come from that part of the world, so the choice would pretty much be either Middle Eastern or those parts of Europe (i.e. Greece and Rome) that they'd have regular contact with. They wouldn't be likely to speculate that the Antichrist would come from America or China, since they'd have no idea that those places existed.

Richardson agrees wholeheartedly with you on this point. The problem with the western mindset is that everything is western-centric. The bible is an eastern book(s) and is M.E. centric always - especially Jerusalem/Israel. The prophets regularly spoke of the judgments that God/Christ would bring on the enemies of Israel and every country he named was in the M.E. So why would it make sense for the modern AC to come from Europe? Nowhere is Christ seen bringing judgement on Rome - but on Egypt and Syria, on Esau and Edom...

[Rlyeh]

Pretty sure Nero wasn't Islamic.

[+DieChecker]

To add to that: Matthew 16:28; "Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom."

Must be a two thousand year old disciple out there.

Matthew 16:21

(just a couple lines before your quote above)

²¹ From that time on Jesus began to explain to his disciples that he must go to Jerusalem and suffer many things at the hands of the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law, and that he must be killed and on the third day be raised to life.

And, almost all the Disciples who were present later saw Jesus after the Resurrection. Which was just a couple days later.

[travelnjones]

When i read this i thought not of the continent of Europe but the band Europe. Joey Tempest isn't the antichrist.

[+and-then]

Pretty sure Nero wasn't Islamic.

? an den? You have to help me out here. Nero was certainly considered a type of AC - many others were as well. The one who's thought to be yet future is the one at issue here though.

[Marcus Aurelius]

The idea that he will "unite" is one of those traditions. Actually he is said to use peace as a means to ensnare. And while the term "antichrist" is only mentioned a couple of times, this person has many other names. Little horn, man of sin, son of perdition, etc, and he comes in the company of an "enforcer" who causes all to worship him. The Islamic Jesus (Isa) is said to fulfill this role for the Mahdi. As Marcus points out, the two are eerily similar. The Jesus of Islam will return to earth and deny he EVER said he was the son of God. He will be the ultimate Muslim. He will actually execute Christians and Jews who do not convert to Islam.

That's one way of looking at it. But have you ever considered the possibility that the eschatology of both religions are pointing to the same thing and are from the same God? What if this is the time that the Muslims will recognize that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God? There are prophecies that state that the Jews will one day recognize Jesus as the Lord and part of the eternal Godhead; so my point is couldn't this same thing happen with those who follow Islam? Whose to say that God is not leading them to the very same point He is also leading Christians and Jews? I think the 3 great faiths will have a convergence, if you will. This convergence will be the correct realization of Christ's true nature.

Further, there is nothing in the Holy Koran or the prophetic Hadiths that state Jesus will execute Christians. To me, this just highlights the anti-Islamic bias of the author. I personally find it frightening that this view is being propagated because all it achieves is leading to more religious intolerance and misunderstanding.

Forgive me if I have caused any offense or derailed the purpose of your thread. It's just that I want to see the 3 great Abrahamic faiths to start realizing their commonalities and working together rather than against each other as has been the case throughout history.

Edited February 26, 2014 by Marcus Aurelius

[+and-then]

That's one way of looking at it. But have you ever considered the possibility that the eschatology of both religions are pointing to the same thing and are from the same God? What if this is the time that the Muslims will recognize that Jesus is the Messiah and the Son of God? There are prophecies that state that the Jews will one day recognize Jesus as the Lord and part of the eternal Godhead; so my point is couldn't this same thing happen with those who follow Islam? Whose to say that God is not leading them to the very same point He is also leading Christians and Jews? I think the 3 great faiths will have a convergence, if you will. This convergence will be the correct realization of Christ's true nature.

Further, there is nothing in the Holy Koran or the prophetic Hadiths that state Jesus will execute Christians. To me, this just highlights the anti-Islamic bias of the author. I personally find it frightening that this view is being propagated because all it achieves is leading to more religious intolerance and misunderstanding.

Forgive me if I have caused any offense or derailed the purpose of your thread. It's just that I want to see the 3 great Abrahamic faiths to start realizing their commonalities and working together rather than against each other as has been the case throughout history.

How can they be the same God? Marcus you are aware I assume that Muslims deny the trinity? That belief in such is considered Shirk? How does one reconcile this belief in Islam? They deny the Son, so obviously they deny the Father. Can John make it any clearer who antichrist is for you? Let me ask you this... do YOU believe that Christ Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, and to salvation?

[ambelamba]

I just read something about corruptions of churches, both Catholics and Protestant.

I think Teh Antichrist will rise, but I really don't think he will have any kind of supernatural origin whatsoever.

[ChloeB]

The Jesus of Islam will return to earth and deny he EVER said he was the son of God.

What is let's say someone who obviously failed to fulfill the prophecy of the Jewish Messiah was named the Messiah, but had to come back again to fulfill it and there was concern if the real Jewish Messiah shows up, what better way to associate that character now with an anti-christ to turn people against him and associate him with this evil character planted in the mind's of people?

Look at the similarities in the antichrist and

The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish peopleby bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

There's your world government, bringer of peace, denies being a god, charismatic leader.

Edited February 27, 2014 by ChloeB

[+DieChecker]

Further, there is nothing in the Holy Koran or the prophetic Hadiths that state Jesus will execute Christians. To me, this just highlights the anti-Islamic bias of the author. I personally find it frightening that this view is being propagated because all it achieves is leading to more religious intolerance and misunderstanding.

This is the first time I've heard that the Muslims believe Jesus is even to Return. Much less that he'll execute Christians.

Forgive me if I have caused any offense or derailed the purpose of your thread. It's just that I want to see the 3 great Abrahamic faiths to start realizing their commonalities and working together rather than against each other as has been the case throughout history.

There are many commonalities, and I agree that they all worship the same God, but 2 out of the 3 MUST be wrong. I don't think there will ever be a blending of these religions. I think there is no way to know short of the Afterlife which one is correct... from a impartial veiwpoint.

As a Christian I am constrained to put forward that Christianity is the way to Salvation, but I will not in any way force others to accept that. And I would never attempt to forcefully convert anyone. Though I would sit down and discuss Salvation with a Muslim or Jew in a discussion and try to present my belief as well as I could.

Edited February 27, 2014 by DieChecker

[+and-then]

What is let's say someone who obviously failed to fulfill the prophecy of the Jewish Messiah was named the Messiah, but had to come back again to fulfill it and there was concern if the real Jewish Messiah shows up, what better way to associate that character now with an anti-christ to turn people against him and associate him with this evil character planted in the mind's of people?

Look at the similarities in the antichrist and

The Mashiach

The mashiach will be a great political leader descended from King David (Jeremiah 23:5). The mashiach is often referred to as "mashiach ben David" (mashiach, son of David). He will be well-versed in Jewish law, and observant of its commandments (Isaiah 11:2-5). He will be a charismatic leader, inspiring others to follow his example. He will be a great military leader, who will win battles for Israel. He will be a great judge, who makes righteous decisions (Jeremiah 33:15). But above all, he will be a human being, not a god, demi-god or other supernatural being.

What Will the Mashiach Do?

Before the time of the mashiach, there shall be war and suffering (Ezekiel 38:16)

The mashiach will bring about the political and spiritual redemption of the Jewish peopleby bringing us back to Israel and restoring Jerusalem (Isaiah 11:11-12; Jeremiah 23:8; 30:3; Hosea 3:4-5). He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles (Isaiah 2:2-4; 11:10; 42:1). He will rebuild the Temple and re-establish its worship (Jeremiah 33:18). He will restore the religious court system of Israel and establish Jewish law as the law of the land (Jeremiah 33:15).

Olam Ha-Ba: The Messianic Age

The world after the messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. This term can cause some confusion, because it is also used to refer to a spiritual afterlife. In English, we commonly use the term "messianic age" to refer specifically to the time of the messiah.

Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. Some authorities suggest that the laws of nature will change, so that predatory beasts will no longer seek prey and agriculture will bring forth supernatural abundance (Isaiah 11:6-11:9). Others, however, say that these statements are merely an allegory for peace and prosperity.

http://www.jewfaq.org/mashiach.htm

There's your world government, bringer of peace, denies being a god, charismatic leader.

That is mashiach. Mahdi will lead the faithful against all who do not submit/convert. Since he will no longer accept the jizyah (tax) the only option for humanity is to convert or die. The Jesus of Islam will deny his deity and will salute Muhammad at his grave. The point of the thread, though, is to explore whether or not the antichrist could be Islamic versus Roman.

[+DieChecker]

Does the current Pope count as a Roman? Even though he's from Brazil?

Can a Roman only be from Italy?

Edited February 27, 2014 by DieChecker

[ambelamba]

Let me give you guys some more input.

If the Antichrist truly exists and he(I bet it's a guy) rises up, I can't stress enough that he will NOT have any kind of supernatural origin whatsoever.

By nature, he will start as a very ordinary person. And it's not a disguise of some demonic spawn. The Antichrist will indeed be an ordinary person.

And I have a feeling that he is/was a genuinely devout Christian. But...something will make him change. Nothing supernatural or demonic, just a sheer misfortune with both comical and tragic level...

[+and-then]

Does the current Pope count as a Roman? Even though he's from Brazil?

Can a Roman only be from Italy?

I'm not sure but I assume that the context here would assume that the AC was a descendant of someone from Rome. The problem Richardson finds with this though, is that God speaks repeatedly of punishing those who harmed Israel - specifically Edom. And Rome is not mentioned by name in Revelation.

[Rlyeh]

? an den? You have to help me out here. Nero was certainly considered a type of AC - many others were as well. The one who's thought to be yet future is the one at issue here though.

I'm pretty sure he's the one in the Book of Revelation, his name equals 666 or 616 for the Latin version.

[+and-then]

I'm pretty sure he's the one in the Book of Revelation, his name equals 666 or 616 for the Latin version.

Actually Antiochus IV Epiphanes is a better candidate - HE was superlative nasty...

[Marcus Aurelius]

How can they be the same God? Marcus you are aware I assume that Muslims deny the trinity? That belief in such is considered Shirk? How does one reconcile this belief in Islam? They deny the Son, so obviously they deny the Father. Can John make it any clearer who antichrist is for you? Let me ask you this... do YOU believe that Christ Jesus is the ONLY way to the Father, and to salvation?

So who are the Muslims praying to? Satan? Dead air? Has God placed such limitations on us or have we placed the limitations on God; decreeing who He can and cannot save?

The Jews reject the Trinity as well, yet we are all to quick to say Jews can and will be saved. So why not Muslims? Again, why the bias?

I think you and I might have talked about this on another thread so I want to be careful here. I don't want to hijack your thread.

My point is one day I think they will RECOGNIZE the Trinity, when Jesus comes again.

Yes, I believe that Christ is the only way, but as I said I think to you...in another thread....I interpret that a bit differently. I think that can happen directly or indirectly because I also believe the Law is written on the human heart as the scripture says, and Muslims are following that Law admirably.

There are many commonalities, and I agree that they all worship the same God, but 2 out of the 3 MUST be wrong. I don't think there will ever be a blending of these religions. I think there is no way to know short of the Afterlife which one is correct... from a impartial veiwpoint.

As a Christian I am constrained to put forward that Christianity is the way to Salvation, but I will not in any way force others to accept that. And I would never attempt to forcefully convert anyone. Though I would sit down and discuss Salvation with a Muslim or Jew in a discussion and try to present my belief as well as I could.

Hello DieChecker, thanks for the dialogue. I agree with you that there should be no BLENDING of the three religions. They have commonalities, but they are separate and distinct. I am NOT a universalist. I am however, a strong proponent of interfaith dialogue and am an outspoken advocate for religious freedom and tolerance. This is why on these forums one will see me keep standing up and defending Islam. I've visited Muslim countries, mosques, I have Muslim friends. I've read the Holy Quran. I'm sorry it just saddens me to see all the religious conflict and tension. But in no way should we blend the faiths.

And yes, I feel that you are more or less right that 2 out of 3 are 'wrong' although I would counter and say the other 2 possess special revelation as well; though Christianity is the most complete and accurate of the 3 systems. But as I said to and you, if we assume that 2 out of 3 are 'wrong', does that really mean that all of them will be denied salvation because they failed their theology exam, that they only scored 40 over 100?

And I would never attempt to forcefully convert anyone. Though I would sit down and discuss Salvation with a Muslim or Jew in a discussion and try to present my belief as well as I could.

I like this. IMO, it is the right approach to take with people of other faiths. I do it myself. One day while having lunch with my wife and a Palestinian Muslim friend of hers...she abruptly asked me out of the blue why I believed that God was a Trinity. She sincerely thought we worshiped three gods. So, I carefully and gently explained to her why I believe in the Triune God, and that I too am a monotheist. Just by telling her I was a monotheist cleared up a lot of the misunderstanding she had about Christianity.

Approach people of other faiths with sincerity and compassion. It goes a long way.

[ambelamba]

If Book of Revelation is actually a prediction with validity, chances are it is a form of warped description of COMPLETELY NON-SUPERNATURAL EVENTS.

Many Christian leaders opposed the addition of Revelation in the Christian Canon, and they had really valid points. But it was included in the Bible anyway.

Call me crazy, but I think the book is inserted in the Bible as a psychological device to keep the people in the church when the time comes... Somehow some early Christian did predict the possible demise of Christianity...

[+DieChecker]

And yes, I feel that you are more or less right that 2 out of 3 are 'wrong' although I would counter and say the other 2 possess special revelation as well; though Christianity is the most complete and accurate of the 3 systems. But as I said to and you, if we assume that 2 out of 3 are 'wrong', does that really mean that all of them will be denied salvation because they failed their theology exam, that they only scored 40 over 100?

You may have read what I posted in another thread. That being a Christian is a immediate way to gain salvation. But any 'good' person can be saved on the day of Judgement. If they so chose. And I believe most will. Being a Christian is like being at the airport and being immediately waved through security, and on to a better place, while everyone else has to wait an hour in line to be screened and scrutinized. Only for non-Christians the wait in line will be over a thousand years. That is a rough description anyway.

[Marcus Aurelius]

DieChecker, I agree completely and I like your anaology a lot!!!

[Space Commander Travis]

Let me give you guys some more input.

If the Antichrist truly exists and he(I bet it's a guy) rises up, I can't stress enough that he will NOT have any kind of supernatural origin whatsoever.

By nature, he will start as a very ordinary person. And it's not a disguise of some demonic spawn. The Antichrist will indeed be an ordinary person.

And I have a feeling that he is/was a genuinely devout Christian. But...something will make him change. Nothing supernatural or demonic, just a sheer misfortune with both comical and tragic level...

Perhaps the Antichrist has already arisen, in the middle of the 20th century, but he was defeated by a colation of Allies.

So does that mean that contrary to the argument of this theory put forward in this thread, he was in fact from Europe? Perhaps just the writers of the ancient books would just, as I said earlier, naturally think of the world that they knew of, or were just slightly off in their prophecy.

[kystranger]

I've been fascinated with religion my entire life. I've been fascinated with eschatology for the last several years. I have read my things about both religion and eschatology. With that being said, here is what I have come up with. I think that many Christians are misinterpreting many parts of the Bible. One of the biggest lines that I think is very misinterpreted is John 14:6, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me". For many Christians they take this to mean that only Christians are going to Heaven. I think they are misinterpreting it. I think instead what it means is that with the death, sacrifice and resurrection of Jesus, everyone goes to Heaven - His blood pays for your sins, even if we don't accept it. This plays into the analogy that DieChecker mentioned above (which I totally agree with). Christians, just because of their belief/faith that Jesus was the Messiah, gets a free pass when the Tribulation begins (we disappear in the Rapture - or at least that's what I believe). Anyway, leading up to the topic that And Then posted ... I have believed for a few years now that the anti-Christ will be a Muslim. I don't mean this as a slam against Muslims. My belief is based on several things (admittedly some of which are assumptions).

1) In Genesis 16:1-14 Hagar flees from Sarah and is confronted by an Angel. The Angel tells her, "Go back to Sarah. Submit to her, and I will make your descendants too numerous to count. Call him Ishmael. He will be a wild one, and all will be against him, and he will be against all his brothers" This is of course paraphrased. I think there is two ways of looking at this. One is that the Angel is Gabriel. Gabriel is the one that gave Muhammad God's message. The second is that the Angel is Lucifer. Lucifer, in the guise of Gabriel, gives Muhammad "God's" message - thereby setting up an enemy for the children of Isaac (Jews and Christians).

2) As mentioned earlier the Biblical anti-Christ and the Muslim savior match up almost perfectly. There are some discrepancies, but the similarities are outstanding.

3) With all Christians, two of the most central components of the faith is that Jesus is the son of God and that he died on the cross for our sins. These are two of the biggest things that Islam does not agree with. Islam denies that Jesus was the son of God because they don't believe the God has children. They don't believe that Jesus died on the cross, but instead that God made someone else look like Jesus, and the real Jesus was taken bodily to Heaven. Taking away these two things pretty much invalidates a lot of Christian belief.

4) According to Revelation 9:16 the army that will try to destroy the Jews will number two hundred thousand thousand (200 million). Only China has a force that large, but I don't think its China. There are 1.6 billion Muslims in the world (and growing). IF (again that if word) 10% of them are radical Muslims (and I think that is a fair number), that gives 160 million. It should be easy to recruit another 40 million or so assuming the anti-Christ is Muslim (think religious fervor).

These are just four of the reasons. Again this is not a slam against Islam. I think that Islam is treated unfairly in the news as it paints them all as unreasonable savages hell bent on destroying everyone. That is just simply not true. I teach college and have had many Muslim students. Not a single one in 16 years of teaching has professed any radical ideas. Every single one of them has been nothing but nice, courteous, and to be honest, happy and jovial (coincidentally several of them agree with the 10% radical statistic). In fact there has only ever been one confrontation between me and a Muslim student which happened last summer. He disagreed that Christianity is monotheistic. Like Marcus Aeriluis above, I calmly and rationally explained the trinity view held by Christians. I think I got the point across, because at the end of my 15 minute diatribe he just went, "Huh. Ok." Most religious groups have radical components (Westboro Baptist Church is a great example for Christianity). Even Buddhists have a radical component (differing sects often fight each other and its kinda funny to read about). I try to stress in class that we shouldn't just everyone by the actions of a few. Hopefully I explained myself adequately. If not, leave questions or comments and I will explain further if needed.

[ChloeB]

That is mashiach. Mahdi will lead the faithful against all who do not submit/convert. Since he will no longer accept the jizyah (tax) the only option for humanity is to convert or die. The Jesus of Islam will deny his deity and will salute Muhammad at his grave. The point of the thread, though, is to explore whether or not the antichrist could be Islamic versus Roman.

Well what does he say about that there is mention of antichrists, plural? I was looking that up real quick, these verses are on Wiki where it doesn't seem to be one person. It could be anyone, anyone not Christian basically.

New Testament

Whether the New Testament contains an individual Antichrist or not is disputed. The five uses of the term "antichrist" or "antichrists" in the Epistles of John do not clearly present a single latter-day individual Antichrist. The articles "the deceiver" or "the antichrist" are usually seen as marking out a certain category of persons, rather than an individual.^[6]

Children, it is the last hour! As you have heard that antichrist is coming, so now many antichrists have come. From this we know that it is the last hour.

—1 John 2:18

NRSV

(1989)

Many deceivers have gone out into the world, those who do not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh; any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist!

—2 John 1:7 NRSV (1989)

Who is the liar but the one who denies that Jesus is the Christ? This is the antichrist, the one who denies the Father and the Son.

—1 John 2:22 NRSV (1989)

By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God. And this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming; and now it is already in the world.

—1 John 4:2–3 NRSV (1989)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antichrist