Vaccinate or not?

[FurthurBB]

it can but thread is about vaccine as prevention, not treatnment.

So, now that you got caught being ignorant about this subject you think you can just move away from it? No, I think most people want to make better choices for themselves.

[aztek]

So, now that you got caught being ignorant about this subject you think you can just move away from it? No, I think most people want to make better choices for themselves.

sure i can, watch me, using vaccines as treatment, not prevention is not what article is about. and btw, i don't trust your orac.

Gorski was interviewed by WPRR in 2012.^[52] He called the co-sponsorship of Integrative Medicine Day by the American Medical Students Association “an infiltration of quackademic medicine” and was described by the popular science writer David H. Freedman as "one of the more prickly anti-alternative-medicine warriors."^[53]

^{there is just no effing way all of alt. med, is wrong, he dissmises it all, so he has bias,}

^{you got another doctor? this one is no good.}

[DecoNoir]

sure i can, watch me, using vaccines as treatment, not prevention is not what article is about. and btw, i don't trust your orac.

Gorski was interviewed by WPRR in 2012.^[52] He called the co-sponsorship of Integrative Medicine Day by the American Medical Students Association “an infiltration of quackademic medicine” and was described by the popular science writer David H. Freedman as "one of the more prickly anti-alternative-medicine warriors."^[53]

^{there is just no effing way all of alt. med, is wrong, he dissmises it all, so he has bias,}

^{you got another doctor? this one is no good.}

Sure it can all be wrong. Is it 100% wrong? Doubt it. But that doesn't make anti vaccination proponents right.

[Awake2Chaos]

The first 1:30 minutes of that video is the best analogy I have ever seen on why vaccination is better then non-vaccination even if vaccines caused autism (which they don't).

The thing I find very interesting about the autism link:

If you take your child for shots, and say, 4 weeks later, they start to develop signs of autism.....can you really definitively say that it was the shots specificially that 'triggered' their autism? How do you know it wasn't something else? An illness, a new medication, a genetic 'timer', etc? I think a lot of it is tedious at best.

[Thanato]

Vaccines are a very successful form of preventive medicine and have proven to save countless lives since their introduction.

My son is vaccinated and well I am glad.

[Almagest]

so what are you doing arguing?

btw, you only demostrated that you do not see it credible, that is all you produced.

It's not a matter of me not seeing it as credible, it simply is not credible. In any sense of the word. If I conducted a survey on cat*spam filter* asking whether dogs or cats make better pets you could bet everything you own that the majority is going to answer cats. Same if I asked a bunch of New Yorkers which city they thought was the best. In all three cases the samples are not representative of society as a whole.

And I'm arguing against it because I like to argue, especially when it comes to pure BS like this.

[Guest]

Another pointless vaccine thread where someone with a fringe belief refuses to engage with reason based arguments.

Aztek - I think you are just trolling us here.

Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

Personal Im not against the idea of vaccines. Im just against all the crap they add to them. Now most vaccines no longer have mecury, and thats a huge plus. But its still loaded with other toxic chemicles. I dont think its too much to ask to have clean vaccines. Even if it hurts a drug companies bottom line.

Thats the other thing, trusting drug companies. Like bayer who intentionaly infected thousands with a AIDS tainted blood. And not one person in America was arrested for it. Which tells you this had the blessings of some powerful people. Same people who want us to take vaccines.

[Guest]

Personal Im not against the idea of vaccines. Im just against all the crap they add to them. Now most vaccines no longer have mecury, and thats a huge plus. But its still loaded with other toxic chemicles. I dont think its too much to ask to have clean vaccines. Even if it hurts a drug companies bottom line.

Thats the other thing, trusting drug companies. Like bayer who intentionaly infected thousands with a AIDS tainted blood. And not one person in America was arrested for it. Which tells you this had the blessings of some powerful people. Same people who want us to take vaccines.

[media=]

[/media]

Indeed this is a point worth discussing.

It seems to me that there a significant perverse incentives for Pharmacautical companies to cover up their mistakes - with the FDA willingly colluding with them in the process. Revolving door recruitment to the FDA means that the public can have little confidence that they are looking after their best interests.

However - on the balance of cost benefit - the vaccine program has been a significant beneficiary to human life and we should be very grateful that Polio, small pox and measles no longer stalk the land killing thousands in their path.

Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

Then you have things like this. So for me, the idea of vaccines are not a bad. The idea of trusting my government to not use them to modify our behavor is bad. Or God knows what else these freaks have come up with.

Video starts at 1:20

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2MuXgpl2Sxg[/media]

Edited February 28, 2014 by preacherman76

[preacherman76]

Indeed this is a point worth discussing.

It seems to me that there a significant perverse incentives for Pharmacautical companies to cover up their mistakes - with the FDA willingly colluding with them in the process. Revolving door recruitment to the FDA means that the public can have little confidence that they are looking after their best interests.

However - on the balance of cost benefit - the vaccine program has been a significant beneficiary to human life and we should be very grateful that Polio, small pox and measles no longer stalk the land killing thousands in their path.

Br Cornelius

Well thats what makes this soo bad. It wasnt a mistake. They intentionaly knowingly infected thousands with AIDS. They knew the risks, pulled it out of Americas market, and instead of destroying it, they then sold it overseas.

I just cant find a way to trust people like this with the lives of my children.

Edited February 28, 2014 by preacherman76

[Lilly]

People do indeed mess up on occassion...you can find instances where food items have been contaminated as well. Life isn't totally safe. All one can do is to try and stack the deck in your favour. In the times before vaccines childhood mortality (death) was much, much higher than it is now. This is a fact (not just my opinion). So, choosing not to vaccinate your kids puts them at greater risk from disease. Oh, sure there is still a risk from others messing up...but this is a much lower risk. We may not like it but life is about choices and risk.

[preacherman76]

People do indeed mess up on occassion...you can find instances where food items have been contaminated as well. Life isn't totally safe. All one can do is to try and stack the deck in your favour. In the times before vaccines childhood mortality (death) was much, much higher than it is now. This is a fact (not just my opinion). So, choosing not to vaccinate your kids puts them at greater risk from disease. Oh, sure there is still a risk from others messing up...but this is a much lower risk. We may not like it but life is about choices and risk.

Is that really fair to say though? I mean doctors didnt even understand the importance of washing their hands back then. Personal hygene was a after thought by most. That alone could be what has been responcibe for these higher mortality rates.

[Sundew]

The one caveat, and I am no expert, is that I believe the way vaccines used to be made was to put a killed or weakened form of the target organism into the body to cause the body's own defense system to create antibodies, thus immunizing one against the fully virulent form of the targeted disease. My understanding now of the new flu vaccines is, there are substances in it that cause your immune system to go into "overdrive" to fight flu so are there any longterm health implications from "tweaking" the immune system like this? It may be both completely harmless and completely effective against the strains of flu (3 or 4 different strains in the two current vaccines), but I think this was the concern regarding at least this new flu vaccination. Also at one time I believe there was mercuric compounds in some vaccines and this was also a concern giving that mercury is some of its forms is rather toxic neurologically.

There is also the allergy problem: I know a young lady who cannot get the standard flu vaccination because she is highly allergic to eggs, and the vaccine is made by injecting the flu virus into eggs, or so I was told.

[Awake2Chaos]

The one caveat, and I am no expert, is that I believe the way vaccines used to be made was to put a killed or weakened form of the target organism into the body to cause the body's own defense system to create antibodies, thus immunizing one against the fully virulent form of the targeted disease. My understanding now of the new flu vaccines is, there are substances in it that cause your immune system to go into "overdrive" to fight flu so are there any longterm health implications from "tweaking" the immune system like this? It may be both completely harmless and completely effective against the strains of flu (3 or 4 different strains in the two current vaccines), but I think this was the concern regarding at least this new flu vaccination. Also at one time I believe there was mercuric compounds in some vaccines and this was also a concern giving that mercury is some of its forms is rather toxic neurologically.

There is also the allergy problem: I know a young lady who cannot get the standard flu vaccination because she is highly allergic to eggs, and the vaccine is made by injecting the flu virus into eggs, or so I was told.

People who have egg allergies can still get the flu shot, it just depends on how severe their allergy is to eggs.

Flucelvax is made without egg protiens, and is available in the U.S.

I had the flu vaccine this year (we had to because of the NYS health department) and I've been exposed multiple times and haven't gotten sick. Yet. (knocks on wood)

I was sick with the flu last year, and I'd much rather have the shot. I was 5 months pregnant at the time, and I honestly felt like I was going to die. It was brutal. I also see a lot of people hospitalized with complications from the flu, and the one thing those folks have in common:

They didn't have a flu shot.

You can't die from the flu itself, but you sure can die from the complications (sepsis, pneumonia, etc.)

[Rafterman]

how about another makes of vaccines, tells the same story

http://tv.naturalsoc...less-dangerous/

Debunked. Perhaps you should consider not relying on anti-vaxx sites like Natural News for your information.

http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp

A 2009 CBS News interview with Dr. Harper is often cited as contradicting this assessment, but it does not: Dr. Harper did not state during that interview that Gardasil doesn't work, is dangerous, or wasn't tested. Given questions about how long the vaccine is effective for, she questioned the efficacy of giving shots to girls as young as 11 years old in parts of the world (such as the U.S.) where women regularly undergo safety Pap screening repeatedly over their lifetimes, saying that the chances of their contracting cervical cancer may be less than the "small" risks associated with the vaccine. But Dr. Harper also noted that the risks of death surrounding the administration of Gardasil were "very rare," and that she "agrees with Merck and the CDC that Gardasil is safe for most girls and women."

Read more at http://www.snopes.com/medical/drugs/gardasil.asp#5BbcPp9Xh6s7Axuv.99

[Rafterman]

surgical oncologist as an expert on vaccines???? how about 2 other articles written by people making vaccine?

Both articles are garbage.

And, yes, I'll put him up any day against the likes of your "experts" such as Mike Adams.

Michael Allen "Mike" Adams (born 1967 in Lawrence, Kansas),^[5] the self-described "Health Ranger", is the founder and owner of NaturalNews. According to his own website his interest in alternative nutrition was sparked by developing type II diabetes at the age of 30 and "completely curing" himself using natural remedies.^[4] He is a raw foods enthusiast and "holistic nutritionist". He says he eats no processed foods, dairy, sugar, meat from mammals or food products containing additives such as MSG.^[4]

Adams is an AIDS denialist, a 9/11 truther, a birther and endorses conspiracy theories surrounding the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting. He has endorsed Burzynski: Cancer Is Serious Business, a movie about Stanislaw Burzynski. Steven Novella characterises Adams as "a dangerous conspiracy-mongering crank".^[6] Adams has also written a favorable review of the pseudoscientific film House of Numbers on NaturalNews,^[7] and has reprinted the review on the film's website.^[8]

[Rafterman]

sure i can, watch me, using vaccines as treatment, not prevention is not what article is about. and btw, i don't trust your orac.

Gorski was interviewed by WPRR in 2012.^[52] He called the co-sponsorship of Integrative Medicine Day by the American Medical Students Association “an infiltration of quackademic medicine” and was described by the popular science writer David H. Freedman as "one of the more prickly anti-alternative-medicine warriors."^[53]

^{there is just no effing way all of alt. med, is wrong, he dissmises it all, so he has bias,}

^{you got another doctor? this one is no good.}

And he was absolutely correct in his criticism.

So can you share with us what in his background discredits him in your opinion?

[Rafterman]

Personal Im not against the idea of vaccines. Im just against all the crap they add to them. Now most vaccines no longer have mecury, and thats a huge plus. But its still loaded with other toxic chemicles. I dont think its too much to ask to have clean vaccines. Even if it hurts a drug companies bottom line.

Thats the other thing, trusting drug companies. Like bayer who intentionaly infected thousands with a AIDS tainted blood. And not one person in America was arrested for it. Which tells you this had the blessings of some powerful people. Same people who want us to take vaccines.

[media=]

[/media]

So you have to go back 30 years to find an instance that has nothing to do with vaccines to criticize vaccines?

As for your claim that vaccines are "loaded with other toxins", please share some citations for that from peer reviewed research - i.e. not Natural News, Jenny McCarthy, etc.

[Rafterman]

Is that really fair to say though? I mean doctors didnt even understand the importance of washing their hands back then. Personal hygene was a after thought by most. That alone could be what has been responcibe for these higher mortality rates.

So you're argument is that hand washing and hygiene stopped things like polio? What about the resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases in non-vaccinated groups here in the US - are those people just dirty?

[rodentraiser]

it would be too late for vaccine, you would need antibiotic after the fact you were bitten,. of course i'd take antibiotic. but since rabies can't be cured, i'd die even if i had vaccine, after the fact, vaccine do not treat, they prevent.

are you yourself vaccinated against rabies???

To answer your question, no, I am not. And as many have pointed out here, rabies is caused by a virus. There is no antibiotic you could take that would help you.

But let me word my question a little better. If you don't believe in vaccines, then you probaby don't have your dog (supposing you do have one) vaccinated against distemper, parvo, leptospirosis, and rabies. Now suppose you live in the country somewhere and your mythical dog gets bitten by a rabid coyote and comes home like Cujo did, all snarling and slobbering (and pretend he ain't a St. Bernard either!). He attacks you and in the course of this attack, police are called and have to shoot him after your dog has bitten you several times. Being this is probably a gentle lab or golden retriever and hearing how your dog isn't vaccinated, the police tell you likely the dog has rabies. Now, do you take a chance and let it go, or do you go in and get the rabies vaccine? And notice, it is called a vaccine. And in dogs, yes, it is a preventative to rabies.

Which by the by, I'm pretty sure they don't do this in rabies cases, but in some cases they give you antivirals. I know a person who has been exposed to AIDS will get them and I got antivirals when I got shingles. You have to get them fairly fast after exposure, I believe, or they don't do much good.

And speaking of shingles, now there's something I wouldn't wish on anyone. The shingles I had were on my face and the doctors were worried because "If the tip of the nose has a rash, the nasociliary branch of the trigeminal nerve is involved. This branch supplies the globe and so it is very likely that the eye will be affected (at least 75% of cases). This is called Hutchinson's sign, as he described it in 1868. The eye can be seriously affected with little evidence of a shingles rash."

Fortunately, my eyesight was OK, but I still have pain called postherpetic neuralgia. That means for the rest of my life I will always have pain and numbness on the left side of my face where the shingles started. Here is a nice picture of someone with shingles. And to think, this could have all been prevented with a chicken pox vaccination.

I'm just asking, is this something you want your kids to have later in life?

Edited March 1, 2014 by rodentraiser

[preacherman76]

So you're argument is that hand washing and hygiene stopped things like polio? What about the resurgence of vaccine preventable diseases in non-vaccinated groups here in the US - are those people just dirty?

What about the resurgence of diseases in vaccinated groups here in the US?

[Guest]

What about the resurgence of diseases in vaccinated groups here in the US?

What about some statistical analysis of that statement.

The only instances I am aware of in the UK is where vaccination rates fell, due to the anti-vaccine campaigns, and so herd immunity was lost. Would you not agree that the Anti-Vaccine lobby is having an effect on disease rates ?

Br Cornelius

[preacherman76]

So you have to go back 30 years to find an instance that has nothing to do with vaccines to criticize vaccines?

As for your claim that vaccines are "loaded with other toxins", please share some citations for that from peer reviewed research - i.e. not Natural News, Jenny McCarthy, etc.

What does 30 years have to do with it? Has time made the untrustworthy otherwise? Has time changed the fact that the FDA did nothing? Why did it take this long to come to light? What else have they done with their FDA immunity since?

I notice you skipped the little pentagon meeting, where they talk about robbing people of their religious beliefs through vaccination.

[preacherman76]

What about some statistical analysis of that statement.

The only instances I am aware of in the UK is where vaccination rates fell, due to the anti-vaccine campaigns, and so herd immunity was lost. Would you not agree that the Anti-Vaccine lobby is having an effect on disease rates ?

Br Cornelius

http://publichealth.portlandmaine.gov/mumps101jan08.pdf

Start on page 6.

I ran across a site this morning that had alot more examples. But I looked through alot of sites. I'll see if I can find it.