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keithisco

Israel ends ultra-Orthodox ...

49 posts in this topic

Right or Wrong? Fundamentalists have long stoked the fires of hatred in the ME, without putting themselves in the front line.

Quote:

Israel's parliament has approved legislation that will end exemptions from military service for ultra-Orthodox Jewish seminary students.

The bill was passed by 65 votes to one, and an amendment allowing civilian national service by 67 to one.

Opposition parties, including Labour, boycotted the votes because of what they called unfair and undemocratic dealing within the governing coalition.

Secular Israelis had complained that the exemptions were unfair.

"The change begins tomorrow morning and it is expected to transform the face of Israeli society unrecognisably," said Yaakov Peri of Yesh Atid, a party in the governing coalition that led the push for the new legislation

LINK (courtesy BBC): http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-26542316

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This same group seems to be allowed generous welfare subsidies as well. I understand that the original idea was noble, similar to our conscientious objectors but the numbers simply exploded over time. Such a large number of citizens cannot be exempted fairly from such an important government function IMO.

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more fanatics into the mix .... great idea ...

~

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more fanatics into the mix .... great idea ...

~

Actually I think it might be just the opposite. The orthodox tend toward being almost a fifth column in their hatred toward the secular government. If I were a military commander I'd be stressed over having to watch them and wonder if they might create problems in the units.
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Actually I think it might be just the opposite. The orthodox tend toward being almost a fifth column in their hatred toward the secular government. If I were a military commander I'd be stressed over having to watch them and wonder if they might create problems in the units.

It just smells of bad news to me bud ...

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Well, I should think so. They're the kind that are almost always the most bloodthirsty (fundamentalists of any religion, not just Jewish), but to expect to be exempt from military service seems a bit of a liberty.

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If they are going to stir things up they should have to face the results of it along with everyone else.

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I always wondered why they were exempt, I just thought it was because they were pacifistic by doctrine.

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I always wondered why they were exempt, I just thought it was because they were pacifistic by doctrine.

I'm not sure about that but I do recall that originally the numbers of those who were full time religious studies for a vocation were much smaller. It has just gotten out of hand and this group also seems to hate the very state they live off of. Makes one wonder how such citizens would be treated in non democratic countries. :whistle:

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Exemptions for "Gifted Scholars" will still be made. So if you want to devote your life to the study of the Jewish religion without serving in the IDF, you have to be exceptional at it.

Zionists 1, Jews 0

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Posted (edited)

Exemptions for "Gifted Scholars" will still be made. So if you want to devote your life to the study of the Jewish religion without serving in the IDF, you have to be exceptional at it.

Zionists 1, Jews 0

Or maybe the rest of Israeli society got tired of being spit on while paying for the livelihood of these people? What is so heinous about that Yam?

And, lest we misunderstand, the period of service is 2 years. How great an imposition is that for a person who lives in freedom? Especially when they don't even have to work to live once it's over?

Edited by and then

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Or maybe the rest of Israeli society got tired of being spit on while paying for the livelihood of these people? What is so heinous about that Yam?

And, lest we misunderstand, the period of service is 2 years. How great an imposition is that for a person who lives in freedom? Especially when they don't even have to work to live once it's over?

It was already heinous, I didn't need to add this to it.

It was also the most militarized nation on the planet. How much is too much? Where does your support for the Israeli government's policies end? What would they have to do to lose your faith? I think that ending the oppression of Palestinians is the true answer.

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It was already heinous, I didn't need to add this to it.

It was also the most militarized nation on the planet. How much is too much? Where does your support for the Israeli government's policies end? What would they have to do to lose your faith? I think that ending the oppression of Palestinians is the true answer.

Or here's something novel - you could answer a question? You should really try it sometime - it gives the impression of dialogue and sanity ;)

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What question do you want me to answer, 'and then'?

How great an imposition is that for a person who lives in freedom?

You have to ask that person.

Especially when they don't even have to work to live once it's over?

Why is not having to work to live a good thing? Is that what Judaism teaches?

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Why is not having to work to live a good thing? Is that what Judaism teaches?

I'm sure it's what most people would aspire to. You can't blame them for knowing when they're on to a good thing. B)

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Posted (edited)

Demographic dictate that eventually all of Israel will be dominated by the Ultra-orthadox because they breed like rabbits. How would they supply the IDF then ??

Its all a bit inconvenient for the Zionists since they are predominantly secular (with low fertility rates) and are afraid of been elbowed out of power. Its another unforseen time bomb for the state.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Demographic dictate that eventually all of Israel will be dominated by the Ultra-orthadox because they breed like rabbits. How would they supply the IDF then ??

Its all a bit inconvenient for the Zionists since they are predominantly secular (with low fertility rates) and are afraid of been elbowed out of power. Its another unforseen time bomb for the state.

Br Cornelius

Brutha what future do you foresee for Israel if say, right of return was made part of a peace deal? Or the abovementioned scenario played out as you imagine? If the Zionist *cue hateful music* were pushed from power? How do you see the future of Israel unfolding - take a guess.

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I actually think the ultra-orthadox would be marginally better than the Zionists since their motivations are entirely different. However if the state of Israel continues to push its boarders then I feel it will be a century long war with no one winning. Israel is to small to contain a growing Orthodox population but I forsee that this will not stop them expanding. Its an incurable situation which should never have been set in motion - I forsee bad outcomes whatever happens on the ground.

Unforeseen consequences doesn't even come close to describing the folly that flows from a single bad decision.

Br Cornelius

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Good for the Pa;estinians, bad for the Israelis, a good portion of Israel's might will now be needed to reign in theTorah thumpers.

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I don't know much about the "Ultra-orthodox" Jews. I did read an article (bbc news website, I think ?? ) about them. If the article is to be believed, they share some characteristics with Bhuddist Monks: they are supposed to dedicate their lives to the pursuit of enlightenment, to the exclusion of almost everything else. Hence they cannot get a 'job' in the usual sense of the word, and rely on charity to support themselves.

In the case of the "Ultra-orthodox" Jews, their "job" - and the path to enlightenment - is to read and understand a scriptural document(s) called "The Talmud".

Apparently this very large document (25,000+ pages in the English translation ? ) is as cryptic as it is large, and there is only limited - and frequently transient - consensus on what the various parts of it actually MEAN, even after thousands of years of debate. Hence reading - and debating - the document is judged to be a full-time occupation in its own right, precluding them from other social obligations such as conscription and getting regular haircuts.

Should they be compelled to do military service ? Dunno.

I would imagine they would be a bit of a nightmare for drill sergeants, as the Ultra-orthodox Jews would presumably regard every order as an invitation to debate, rather than an imperative to be obeyed.

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I don't know much about the "Ultra-orthodox" Jews. I did read an article (bbc news website, I think ?? ) about them. If the article is to be believed, they share some characteristics with Bhuddist Monks: they are supposed to dedicate their lives to the pursuit of enlightenment, to the exclusion of almost everything else. Hence they cannot get a 'job' in the usual sense of the word, and rely on charity to support themselves.

In the case of the "Ultra-orthodox" Jews, their "job" - and the path to enlightenment - is to read and understand a scriptural document(s) called "The Talmud".

Apparently this very large document (25,000+ pages in the English translation ? ) is as cryptic as it is large, and there is only limited - and frequently transient - consensus on what the various parts of it actually MEAN, even after thousands of years of debate. Hence reading - and debating - the document is judged to be a full-time occupation in its own right, precluding them from other social obligations such as conscription and getting regular haircuts.

Should they be compelled to do military service ? Dunno.

I would imagine they would be a bit of a nightmare for drill sergeants, as the Ultra-orthodox Jews would presumably regard every order as an invitation to debate, rather than an imperative to be obeyed.

This is why I assumed the issue will be settled rather more in the favor of the orthodox than the state. How can you depend on a group who hate you to protect your back? But these folks live entirely off of social welfare I think - so they might HAVE to serve to make sure they continue to receive those benefits for the family.

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Good for the Pa;estinians, bad for the Israelis, a good portion of Israel's might will now be needed to reign in theTorah thumpers.

Too bad they won't be Torah thumpers...they are Talmud/Midrash thumpers.

Peace,

RadicalGnostic

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Maybe Israel knows that something is brewing up near them (Ukraine is within spitting distance)and they want as many trained military personel as they possibly can in spite of their religious leanings.

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Posted (edited)

I don't know much about the "Ultra-orthodox" Jews. I did read an article (bbc news website, I think ?? ) about them. If the article is to be believed, they share some characteristics with Bhuddist Monks: they are supposed to dedicate their lives to the pursuit of enlightenment, to the exclusion of almost everything else. Hence they cannot get a 'job' in the usual sense of the word, and rely on charity to support themselves.

In the case of the "Ultra-orthodox" Jews, their "job" - and the path to enlightenment - is to read and understand a scriptural document(s) called "The Talmud".

Apparently this very large document (25,000+ pages in the English translation ? ) is as cryptic as it is large, and there is only limited - and frequently transient - consensus on what the various parts of it actually MEAN, even after thousands of years of debate. Hence reading - and debating - the document is judged to be a full-time occupation in its own right, precluding them from other social obligations such as conscription and getting regular haircuts.

Should they be compelled to do military service ? Dunno.

I would imagine they would be a bit of a nightmare for drill sergeants, as the Ultra-orthodox Jews would presumably regard every order as an invitation to debate, rather than an imperative to be obeyed.

Yes, there is that to be said for theocracies of that kind, that they're usually so inward looking that they're rarely bothered about anyone else, and at least Judaism doesn't insist on forcing its beliefs on everything else, so if they were to become the dominant element it mightn't be of too much concern to the rest of the world, in fact it might put a brake on the militarism. I don't know what the rest of the population of Israel might feel about it, though.

Edited by Colonel Rhubarb

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Yes, there is that to be said for theocracies of that kind, that they're usually so inward looking that they're rarely bothered about anyone else, and at least Judaism doesn't insist on forcing its beliefs on everything else, so if they were to become the dominant element it mightn't be of too much concern to the rest of the world, in fact it might put a brake on the militarism. I don't know what the rest of the population of Israel might feel about it, though.

Whatever they felt it wouldn't be for long.

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