Join the Unexplained Mysteries community today! It's free and setting up an account only takes a moment.
- Sign In or Create Account -
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2
buckskin scout

Revelation 16:12 is a symbolic passage

23 posts in this topic

And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. Revelation 16:12

It was symbolic of the Roman route of the Jews in Jerusalem and the destruction of their city and the 2nd Temple. Because it already happened in history:

In the year 540 BCE, Cyrus captured Elam and its capital, Susa. Cyrus moved into Babylonia and fought the Battle of Opis in or near the strategic riverside city of Opis on the Tigris, north of Babylon. The Babylonian army was routed, and Cyrus conquered Babylon without any significant resistance. Herodotus explains that to accomplish this feat, the Persians diverted the Euphrates river into a canal so that the water level dropped "to the height of the middle of a man's thigh", which allowed the invading forces to march directly through the river bed to enter at night.

http://www.ancient.eu.com/Cyrus_II/

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
 

Posted (edited)

I agree with your recognition of the idiom presented int Revelation 16:12, but not your interpretation. I'm of the opinion the author of Revelation was anticipating the end of the Roman Empire, Domitian's rule in particular, during his lifetime. Revelation 15-16 is about the punishment of the Roman Empire for it's abuse of God's people. It fits more with the mark of the beast presented in Revelation 13; about the forced practice of Roman pagan worship.

Edited by Bluefinger
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I agree with your recognition of the idiom presented int Revelation 16:12, but not your interpretation. I'm of the opinion the author of Revelation was anticipating the end of the Roman Empire, Domitian's rule in particular, during his lifetime. Revelation 15-16 is about the punishment of the Roman Empire for it's abuse of God's people. It fits more with the mark of the beast presented in Revelation 13; about the forced practice of Roman pagan worship.

The Babylonian Whore is Jerusalem, that sits upon the Roman Empire, only Jerusalem shed the blood saints and prophets verse 6 (Matt. 23:33-36), Titus and Vespasian crossed the Euphrates from out Syria, likewise they recalled legions from the east too verse 12.

And only one nation and two pagan cities in the whole Old Testament are addressed as "harlots" and the reason why is they are the ones that covenanted with God. They are Israel, Tyre, and Nineveh.

Israel = Isa 1:21, 57:8; Jer. 2:2, 20

The appellation of "the harlot" is an established label for Jerusalem; it could never be applied to Rome or any Gentile city, since they have never been in a covenant relationship with God.

"The metaphor of harlotry is exclusively used in the Old Testament for a city or nation that has abandoned the Covenant and turned toward false gods; and with only two exceptions . . . the term is always used for faithless Israel." - David Chilton

Let's not forget both Jerusalem and Rome sit upon seven hills.

Edited by GoSC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

The passages:

Here is where Tyre makes a covenant with the Lord - 1 Kings 5:1-12, 9:10-13, Amos 1:9

Here is where God calls Tyre a harlot for breaking covenant - Isaiah 23:15-18

Here is where Nineveh makes a covenant with the Lord - Jonah 3:5-10

Here is where God calls Nineveh a harlot for breaking covenant - Nahum 3:4

I have this on good word from David Chilton and Steve Gregg and they've both have cited this in published works.

Edited by GoSC

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Babylonian Whore is Jerusalem, that sits upon the Roman Empire, only Jerusalem shed the blood saints and prophets verse 6 (Matt. 23:33-36), Titus and Vespasian crossed the Euphrates from out Syria, likewise they recalled legions from the east too verse 12.

And only one nation and two pagan cities in the whole Old Testament are addressed as "harlots" and the reason why is they are the ones that covenanted with God. They are Israel, Tyre, and Nineveh.

Israel = Isa 1:21, 57:8; Jer. 2:2, 20

The appellation of "the harlot" is an established label for Jerusalem; it could never be applied to Rome or any Gentile city, since they have never been in a covenant relationship with God.

"The metaphor of harlotry is exclusively used in the Old Testament for a city or nation that has abandoned the Covenant and turned toward false gods; and with only two exceptions . . . the term is always used for faithless Israel." - David Chilton

Let's not forget both Jerusalem and Rome sit upon seven hills.

I completely understand your position and it makes sense. But the external and internal context doesn't leave room for that option.

Internally, Revelation shows that the woman Babylon is the city that rules over the kings of the earth. At the time the Apocalypse was written, that was Rome.

Externally, Jerusalem had already been destroyed by the Romans when the Apocalypse was written. Iranaeus even said it was written during the reign of Domitian.

And in regards to the original audience, the destruction of a city that was ordering the wholesale worship of a man at the penalty of death fits in better context to Revelation 17 than the destruction of Jerusalem.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Check out this summary:

Summary of Harlot Babylon of Revelation 17-18

by Duncan McKenzie

This article is a summary of harlot Babylon found in Revelation 17-18. It summarizes about 70 pages from my book (The Antichrist and the Second Coming). The good news is you don't have to read 70 pages. The bad news is you will have to pay closer attention to the scriptural references to better connect the dots.

The motif of harlot (with only two minor exceptions) is used in the O.T. to represent God’s old covenant people going after the gods and ways of other nations (cf. Ezek. 16). When Revelation was written (c. AD 65) the other nation (the beast the harlot is riding on) was Rome. God’s covenant with Israel was liked to a covenant of marriage (Ezek 16:32), thus God’s old covenant people going after other gods is likened to an unfaithful or harlot wife (cf. Hosea 1-2). When God established the Mosaic covenant, He told Moses the following.

Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured… Deut. 31:16-17

Revelation 17-18 is showing this prophesied destruction of harlot Israel, God’s unfaithful old covenant people.

The book of Revelation is structured on the covenant curses that were to come on God’s unfaithful old covenant people when they broke the covenant, something they did in the ultimate sense when they had Jesus killed (cf. Matt. 21:33-45). God said He would bring four sets of sevenfold punishment on Israel for breaking the covenant (Lev. 26:18, 21, 24, 28). These covenant judgments form the basis of the four sets of sevenfold punishment of Revelation (the seven seals, Rev. 6:1-17; 8:1; the seven trumpets, Rev. 8:2-10:7; the seven thunders, Rev. 10:3-4; and the seven bowls, Rev. 16:1-21). Revelation is showing God’s anger being poured out harlot Israel (the dwellers on the Land) as she is devoured at the end of the old covenant age (cf. Dan. 12:7 Rev. 11:17-18). God had said He would punish His unfaithful old covenant people at this time by bringing back on them the plagues of Egypt (Deut. 28:58-61); this is why a number of the punishments in Revelation are patterned after the plagues of Egypt (7 of the 10 plagues are represented, Rev. 9:1-3; 16:1-4, 8, 10, 13, 21). This background of the covenant curses forms the context in which one finds the judgment and destruction of harlot Babylon. The destruction of Babylon in Revelation 17-18 forms the climax of these covenant curses that were coming on the unfaithful dwellers on the Land (cf. Rev. 11:16-18).

The full article here: http://planetpreterist.com/news-2817.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Check out this summary:

Summary of Harlot Babylon of Revelation 17-18

by Duncan McKenzie

This article is a summary of harlot Babylon found in Revelation 17-18. It summarizes about 70 pages from my book (The Antichrist and the Second Coming). The good news is you don't have to read 70 pages. The bad news is you will have to pay closer attention to the scriptural references to better connect the dots.

The motif of harlot (with only two minor exceptions) is used in the O.T. to represent God’s old covenant people going after the gods and ways of other nations (cf. Ezek. 16). When Revelation was written (c. AD 65) the other nation (the beast the harlot is riding on) was Rome. God’s covenant with Israel was liked to a covenant of marriage (Ezek 16:32), thus God’s old covenant people going after other gods is likened to an unfaithful or harlot wife (cf. Hosea 1-2). When God established the Mosaic covenant, He told Moses the following.

Behold, you will rest with your fathers; and this people will rise and play the harlot with the gods of the foreigners of the land, where they go to be among them, and they will forsake Me and break My covenant which I have made with them. Then My anger shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured… Deut. 31:16-17

Revelation 17-18 is showing this prophesied destruction of harlot Israel, God’s unfaithful old covenant people.

The book of Revelation is structured on the covenant curses that were to come on God’s unfaithful old covenant people when they broke the covenant, something they did in the ultimate sense when they had Jesus killed (cf. Matt. 21:33-45). God said He would bring four sets of sevenfold punishment on Israel for breaking the covenant (Lev. 26:18, 21, 24, 28). These covenant judgments form the basis of the four sets of sevenfold punishment of Revelation (the seven seals, Rev. 6:1-17; 8:1; the seven trumpets, Rev. 8:2-10:7; the seven thunders, Rev. 10:3-4; and the seven bowls, Rev. 16:1-21). Revelation is showing God’s anger being poured out harlot Israel (the dwellers on the Land) as she is devoured at the end of the old covenant age (cf. Dan. 12:7 Rev. 11:17-18). God had said He would punish His unfaithful old covenant people at this time by bringing back on them the plagues of Egypt (Deut. 28:58-61); this is why a number of the punishments in Revelation are patterned after the plagues of Egypt (7 of the 10 plagues are represented, Rev. 9:1-3; 16:1-4, 8, 10, 13, 21). This background of the covenant curses forms the context in which one finds the judgment and destruction of harlot Babylon. The destruction of Babylon in Revelation 17-18 forms the climax of these covenant curses that were coming on the unfaithful dwellers on the Land (cf. Rev. 11:16-18).

The full article here: http://planetpreterist.com/news-2817.html

You still have to deal with the internal evidence though.

"And the woman that you saw is the great city that has dominion over the kings of the earth.” (Revelation 17:18 ESV)

Jerusalem can only fit into this description with fanciful stretches of imagination. And to make the city papal Rome completely takes the original audience out of the picture. The only thing to conclude, then, is that paganism is harlotry period. Covenant doesn't matter because the LORD is God of the entire creation. That was the message that the Jews had spread (when they weren't playing the harlot too.) That was the message that the original Gentile audience was spreading after they accepted the message that was spread by the elect from the Jewish people (Romans 11:1-5, Ephesians 1:1-12, John 17:6.) It was for not worshiping Domitian and the Roman gods that the Christians in Asia Minor were being tormented and murdered. That points all roads leading to Rome; pagan Rome.

Edited by Bluefinger
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to still disagree, Jerusalem is definitely the Babylonian whore because it was the nation to make a covenant with God and be divorced by God.

Revelation 11:8

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 16:19

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. SEE EZEKIEL 5:1-12!

Revelation 18:7

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Revelation 17:16-17

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Revelation 18:20

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Revelation 18:24

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to still disagree, Jerusalem is definitely the Babylonian whore because it was the nation to make a covenant with God and be divorced by God.

Revelation 11:8

8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Revelation 16:19

19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. SEE EZEKIEL 5:1-12!

Revelation 18:7

7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.

Revelation 17:16-17

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

Revelation 18:20

20 Rejoice over her, thou heaven, and ye holy apostles and prophets; for God hath avenged you on her.

Revelation 18:24

24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.

What about Revelation 17:18?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Revelation 16:12 is not the end of the prophecy, It's the beginning of it. The prophecy is Rev.16:12-16. Does not verse 14 explain why the river is dried up? Rev.16:14 "... to gather them to battle of that great day of God Almighty." and doesn't verse 16 say what that battle of that great day is? Rev. 16:16 "and he gathered them together onto a place called in the Hebrew tounge Ar-ma-ged-don."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Rev 16:12 says the river was "dried up". The bible is so exact. Water up to the thigh would not be exact enough. Plus it says an angel caused the river to dry up. Sounds like a drought. Since God does everything twice for our strong consolation (Hebrews 6:18) perhaps the event you gave is a foreshadow.

Since we are trying to make sense of it all and no one has fit it all together, I will throw in parts of Rev that comes to me.

In the OT temple, which is a pattern of the one in heaven, Rev 14:14 shows the heavenly temple opening up in response to all who do not taken the mark of the beast govt of Rev 14. The beast nations being Germany (which had the deadly wound to the head - died and came back to life), and the other empire confederacy of the a beast with two horns like a Lamb in common being the Judeo/Christian religions ---United States and Israel (Israel being the one that was wounded and never died but lived - such as in the Hallocaust (misspelled)

As the angels come flying out of the temple they pour out vials of environmental upsets. Rev 16:12 says more than one king will use access to the dried up river Euphrates.

The great whore started out to be the true church. She is seen in Rev 12 being preached to in the wilderness by Jesus for 3 1/2 years. She is preserved by two wings of an eagle (Rome making Christianity the official religion, and America which gave her freedom of religion) America was seen at that time as still a wilderness. History says the woman that fled over the ocean to America was a church that believed strongly in "election and predestination" and was being killed by other Christians.

When we see the harlot, she is coming out of the wilderness. It's the same woman but she has morphed into a false teaching "free will doctrine" money making, retail enterprising, nation influencing church. There are many Christians involved in her for God says, "Come out of her MY PEOPLE..." She always has some pet humanitarian project excuse to keep her hands in your pockets. But she takes a big slice for herself for Rev says she lives "deliciously". Her humanitarian projects give her influence over kings. A harlot sells herself. Today's Christian churches in America are always selling some Christian trinket. It seems this harlot is spread world wide, for the angels' vial is in response to her and is world wide. (Guess that is made possible --thanks to TV gospel).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

What about Revelation 17:18?

and again, verse 16 says the tens horns shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire?

Rome hates Rome? Or Rome hates Jerusalem (AD 70)?

Revelation 17:16-17

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

and again, verse 16 says the tens horns shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire?

Rome hates Rome? Or Rome hates Jerusalem (AD 70)?

Revelation 17:16-17

16 And the ten horns which thou sawest upon the beast, these shall hate the whore, and shall make her desolate and naked, and shall eat her flesh, and burn her with fire.

17 For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled

I don't think that really explains how Jerusalem became the city that ruled over the kings of the earth, especially while in the first century.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that really explains how Jerusalem became the city that ruled over the kings of the earth, especially while in the first century.

Jerusalem was a center of commerce and worship!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Jerusalem was a center of commerce and worship!

Agreed. But not the center. Nor did it rule the kings of the earth. Babylon is first century Rome. The use of the words whoredom or prostitution all point toward idolatry. While it was use to describe Israel's idolatry in the Old Testament, I believe the author or the Apocalypse meant to imply idolatry in general. Also, Revelation 1:5 indicates that, at the time of writing, the author recognized Jesus as the ruler of all kings (thus God of all nations). With that, any nation that commits idolatry is committing spiritual prostitution.

Edited by Bluefinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Agreed. But not the center. Nor did it rule the kings of the earth. Babylon is first century Rome. The use of the words whoredom or prostitution all point toward idolatry. While it was use to describe Israel's idolatry in the Old Testament, I believe the author or the Apocalypse meant to imply idolatry in general. Also, Revelation 1:5 indicates that, at the time of writing, the author recognized Jesus as the ruler of all kings (thus God of all nations). With that, any nation that commits idolatry is committing spiritual prostitution.

But the greek here, can mean both the "land" and the "earth" interchangeably.

1093. gé

Strong's Concordance

gé: the earth, land

Original Word: γῆ, γῆς, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: gé

Phonetic Spelling: (ghay)

Short Definition: the earth, soil, land

Definition: the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 1093: γῆ

γῆ, genitive γῆς, ἡ (contracted from γεα, poetic γαῖα), the Sept. very often for אֶרֶץ and אֲדָמָה, earth;

1. arable land: Matthew 13:5, 8, 23; Mark 4:8, 20, 26, 28, 31; Luke 13:7; Luke 14:35 (34); John 12:24; Hebrews 6:7; James 5:7; Revelation 9:4; of the earthy material out of which a thing is formed, with the implied idea of frailty and weakness: ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός, 1 Corinthians 15:47.

2. the ground, the earth as a standing-place (German Boden): Matthew 10:29; Matthew 15:35; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:51; Mark 8:6; Mark 9:20; Mark 14:35; Luke 22:44 (L brackets WH reject the passage); ; John 8:6, 8 (i. e. Rec.); Acts 9:4, 8.

3. the main land, opposed to sea or water: Mark 4:1; Mark 6:47; Luke 5:3; Luke 8:27; John 6:21; John 21:8f, 11; Revelation 12:12.

4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);

a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγεια, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λαλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.

b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals: Luke 21:35; Acts 1:8; Acts 10:12; Acts 11:6; Acts 17:26; Hebrews 11:13; Revelation 3:10; αἴρειν ζωήν τίνος or τινα ἀπό τῆς γῆς, Acts 8:33; Acts 22:22; κληρονομεῖν τήν γῆν (see κληρονομέω, 2), Matthew 5:5 (4); πῦρ βάλλειν ἐπί (Rec. εἰς) τήν γῆν, i. e. among men, Luke 12:49, cf. Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10:34; ἐπί τῆς γῆς among men, Luke 18:8; John 17:4.

5. a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region; simply, when it is plain from the context what land is meant, as that of the Jews: Luke 4:25; Luke 21:23; Romans 9:28; James 5:17; with a gentile noun added (then, as a rule, anarthrous, Winer's Grammar, 121 (114f)): γῆ Ἰσραήλ, Matthew 2:20f; Ιουδα, Matthew 2:6; Γεννησαρέτ, Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53; Σοδομων καί Γομόρρων, Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:24; Χαλδαίων, Acts 7:4; Αἴγυπτος (see Αἴγυπτος); ἡ Ἰουδαία γῆ, John 3:22; with the addition of an adjective: ἀλλότρια, Acts 7:6; ἐκείνῃ, Matthew 9:26, 31; with the genitive of person one's country, native land, Acts 7:3.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

country, ground, land, world.

Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application) -- country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1093.htm

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But the greek here, can mean both the "land" and the "earth" interchangeably.

1093. gé

Strong's Concordance

gé: the earth, land

Original Word: γῆ, γῆς, ἡ

Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine

Transliteration: gé

Phonetic Spelling: (ghay)

Short Definition: the earth, soil, land

Definition: the earth, soil, land, region, country, inhabitants of a region.

Thayer's Greek Lexicon

STRONGS NT 1093: γῆ

γῆ, genitive γῆς, ἡ (contracted from γεa, poetic γaῖa), the Sept. very often for אֶרֶץ and אֲדָמָה, earth;

1. arable land: Matthew 13:5, 8, 23; Mark 4:8, 20, 26, 28, 31; Luke 13:7; Luke 14:35 (34); John 12:24; Hebrews 6:7; James 5:7; Revelation 9:4; of the earthy material out of which a thing is formed, with the implied idea of frailty and weakness: ἐκ γῆς χοϊκός, 1 Corinthians 15:47.

2. the ground, the earth as a standing-place (German Boden): Matthew 10:29; Matthew 15:35; Matthew 23:35; Matthew 27:51; Mark 8:6; Mark 9:20; Mark 14:35; Luke 22:44 (L brackets WH reject the passage); ; John 8:6, 8 (i. e. Rec.); Acts 9:4, 8.

3. the main land, opposed to sea or water: Mark 4:1; Mark 6:47; Luke 5:3; Luke 8:27; John 6:21; John 21:8f, 11; Revelation 12:12.

4. the earth as a whole, the world (Latinterrarumorbis);

a. the earth as opposed to the heavens: Matthew 5:18, 35; Matthew 6:10; Matthew 16:19; Matthew 18:18; Matthew 24:35; Mark 13:31; Luke 2:14; John 12:32; Acts 2:19; Acts 4:24; 2 Peter 3:5, 7, 10, 13; Revelation 21:1; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the things and beings that are on the earth, Ephesians 1:10; Colossians 1:16 (T WH omit; L Tr brackets τά); involving a suggestion of mutability, frailty, infirmity, alike in thought and in action, Matthew 6:19; τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς (equivalent to τά ἐπίγειa, Philippians 3:19) terrestrial goods, pleasures, honors, Colossians 3:2 (opposed to τά ἄνω); τά μέλη ὑμῶν τά ἐπί τῆς γῆς the members of your earthly body, as it were the abode and instruments of corrupt desires, Colossians 3:5; ὁ ὤν ἐκ τῆς γῆς ... λaλεῖ (in contrast with Christ as having come from heaven) he who is of earthly (human) origin, has an earthly nature, and speaks as his earthly origin and nature prompt, John 3:31.

b. the inhabited earth, the abode of men and animals: Luke 21:35; Acts 1:8; Acts 10:12; Acts 11:6; Acts 17:26; Hebrews 11:13; Revelation 3:10; aἴρειν ζωήν τίνος or τινa ἀπό τῆς γῆς, Acts 8:33; Acts 22:22; κληρονομεῖν τήν γῆν (see κληρονομέω, 2), Matthew 5:5 (4); πῦρ bάλλειν ἐπί (Rec. εἰς) τήν γῆν, i. e. among men, Luke 12:49, cf. Luke 12:51 and Matthew 10:34; ἐπί τῆς γῆς among men, Luke 18:8; John 17:4.

5. a country, land enclosed within fixed boundaries, a tract of land, territory, region; simply, when it is plain from the context what land is meant, as that of the Jews: Luke 4:25; Luke 21:23; Romans 9:28; James 5:17; with a gentile noun added (then, as a rule, anarthrous, Winer's Grammar, 121 (114f)): γῆ Ἰσρaήλ, Matthew 2:20f; Ιουδa, Matthew 2:6; Γεννησaρέτ, Matthew 14:34; Mark 6:53; Σοδομων κaί Γομόρρων, Matthew 10:15; Matthew 11:24; Χaλδaίων, Acts 7:4; Aἴγυπτος (see Aἴγυπτος); ἡ Ἰουδaίa γῆ, John 3:22; with the addition of an adjective: ἀλλότριa, Acts 7:6; ἐκείνῃ, Matthew 9:26, 31; with the genitive of person one's country, native land, Acts 7:3.

Strong's Exhaustive Concordance

country, ground, land, world.

Contracted from a primary word; soil; by extension a region, or the solid part or the whole of the terrene globe (including the occupants in each application) -- country, earth(-ly), ground, land, world.

http://biblehub.com/greek/1093.htm

I don't think that is what the author intended though. Here is some literary facts about the book:

Author: John, exiled to the island of Patmos by the Romans.

Audience: In Revelation 1-3, John addresses Jewish and Gentile believers in Asia-Minor.

Background: The believers in Asia-Minor were being persecuted for their faith by unbelieving Jews and pagan Romans.

Theme: Obey the commands of God by rejecting idolatry and keep the testimony of Jesus, even to the point of death.

Putting these things together, there is no indication that Jerusalem was Mystery Babylon. The historical data all points to Rome. Even Iranaeus said it was written during the reign of Domitian. That is a clear indication that Rome was the city to be destroyed. I did not get destroyed, however, according to the time table presented in Revelation 17. Therefore, the destruction of Rome reflects the own author's opposition to Rome for its murder of Christians over the worship of idols. The writer may have also wanted to comfort the readers in Asia-Minor by telling them that their persecutor and the entire Roman religion would soon fall at the coming of The Lord Jesus.

Daniel 11 falls into the same circumstance after verse 36, as details fail to line up with historical fact. In effort to protect the idea that the book of Daniel is a divine writing, Christians have inserted a dispensation called "the Church Age" in between those verses. In my opinion, that leads to bad eschatology. Like finding even the smallest critique of a word to try and prove that Jerusalem was Mystery Babylon.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Like many prophesies in Scripture, this one may have had a fulfillment in the past, and one yet future. China today could field an army of 200 million foot soldiers, I believe that is the number given in Revelation, an unimaginably large number of soldiers for the ancient world.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't think that is what the author intended though. Here is some literary facts about the book:

Author: John, exiled to the island of Patmos by the Romans.

Audience: In Revelation 1-3, John addresses Jewish and Gentile believers in Asia-Minor.

Background: The believers in Asia-Minor were being persecuted for their faith by unbelieving Jews and pagan Romans.

Theme: Obey the commands of God by rejecting idolatry and keep the testimony of Jesus, even to the point of death.

Putting these things together, there is no indication that Jerusalem was Mystery Babylon. The historical data all points to Rome. Even Iranaeus said it was written during the reign of Domitian. That is a clear indication that Rome was the city to be destroyed. I did not get destroyed, however, according to the time table presented in Revelation 17. Therefore, the destruction of Rome reflects the own author's opposition to Rome for its murder of Christians over the worship of idols. The writer may have also wanted to comfort the readers in Asia-Minor by telling them that their persecutor and the entire Roman religion would soon fall at the coming of The Lord Jesus.

Daniel 11 falls into the same circumstance after verse 36, as details fail to line up with historical fact. In effort to protect the idea that the book of Daniel is a divine writing, Christians have inserted a dispensation called "the Church Age" in between those verses. In my opinion, that leads to bad eschatology. Like finding even the smallest critique of a word to try and prove that Jerusalem was Mystery Babylon.

I already addressed this in two earlier posts, in the book of Isaiah, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Gormorrah. In the WHOLE Old Testament only Israel and its cities, & the pagan cities Tyre and Nineveh are addressed as harlots.

You can scour the whole Old Testament, and you find only Israel and Jerusalem, Tyre, and Nineveh were given this appellation.

Lets not forget either that Jewry in Jesus' day had been corrupted by man's traditions, which has evolved and compiled into the BABYLONIAN Talmud. Today Jews do not follow God's word but their own traditions. Judaism places the Talmud aka the Oral Torah as an above authority over the Tanahk, the written Torah.

They even have a tradition that the Babylonian Talmud was delivered to Moses on Mt Sinai simultaneously with the written Torah, the Tanahk... our Old Testament.

In the First Century, Jesus addressed the Oral Torah as the Traditions of the Elders (aka the Traditions of the Pharisees).

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=264172entry5122659

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=264172entry5122924

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

I already addressed this in two earlier posts, in the book of Isaiah, Jerusalem is likened to Sodom and Gormorrah. In the WHOLE Old Testament only Israel and its cities, & the pagan cities Tyre and Nineveh are addressed as harlots.

You can scour the whole Old Testament, and you find only Israel and Jerusalem, Tyre, and Nineveh were given this appellation.

I'm not arguing against any of those points. What I'm arguing is that the author of the book of Revelations wrote the book after the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed (according to Iranaeus) to an audience in Asia-Minor that was suffering persecution that the imperial capital of the Roman Empire (Rome) had mandated. The first four verses of Revelation 17 describe what the entire ordeal was about Mystery Babylon. Hint: She committed sexual immorality (idolatry) with the kings of the earth. And by that sexual immorality (idolatry), the people of the earth went mad. Even to the point of murdering the witnesses of Jesus Christ our Lord.

Lets not forget either that Jewry in Jesus' day had been corrupted by man's traditions, which has evolved and compiled into the BABYLONIAN Talmud. Today Jews do not follow God's word but their own traditions. Judaism places the Talmud aka the Oral Torah as an above authority over the Tanahk, the written Torah.

They even have a tradition that the Babylonian Talmud was delivered to Moses on Mt Sinai simultaneously with the written Torah, the Tanahk... our Old Testament.

In the First Century, Jesus addressed the Oral Torah as the Traditions of the Elders (aka the Traditions of the Pharisees).

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=264172&#entry5122659

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=264172&#entry5122924

Very well. But I don't see how that fits the author's description of an imperial city that influenced eight kings to persecute God's people.

Edited by Bluefinger

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Posted (edited)

Bluefinger, GoSC, good discussion guys. I'm enjoying reading both of your posts on this thread! I don't have much to add; just a couple small things:

Bluefinger, you did mention Irenaeus said Revelation was written after the destruction of the Temple? Was that in his Against Heresies? My only thought is a pre-70 a.d. date seems just as likely to me for Revelation because IF the temple had been destroyed; why didn't John mention it? It would have added proof that these things were coming to pass.

Lastly, as to his audience, (and this is debatable) I've always held to the view that I remember reading somewhere; that Revelation was an ACTUAL letter to the 7 churches referenced in it.

Anyhow, great discussion you two!!

Edited by Marcus Aurelius
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My only thought is a pre-70 a.d. date seems just as likely to me for Revelation because IF the temple had been destroyed; why didn't John mention it?

It's a work of futuristic fiction about the near future of his current time. In futuristic/fantasy fiction you don't read about the writer's present time in an accurate historic presentation. It's not a news flash. It's a finished book. It's not a journal................................................................................

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bluefinger, GoSC, good discussion guys. I'm enjoying reading both of your posts on this thread! I don't have much to add; just a couple small things:

Bluefinger, you did mention Irenaeus said Revelation was written after the destruction of the Temple? Was that in his Against Heresies? My only thought is a pre-70 a.d. date seems just as likely to me for Revelation because IF the temple had been destroyed; why didn't John mention it? It would have added proof that these things were coming to pass.

That is unless the author backdated it to make it seem like the things the audience were experiencing were foretold. The book of Daniel likely did the same thing. Many scholars have been led to believe that Daniel was written more than 300 years after it claims to have been written, due to the breakdown of fulfillment of prophetic signs after Daniel 11:36. Likewise, the book of Revelation backdates itself to the reign of Vespasian so that it could point to Domitian as the beast that would persecute the Christians. I don't know if this was to validate the author's own predictions (which I think is the case) or to protect the audience by making the interpretation so confusing that the Romans would think it was a wacky Christian fable.

Lastly, as to his audience, (and this is debatable) I've always held to the view that I remember reading somewhere; that Revelation was an ACTUAL letter to the 7 churches referenced in it.

Anyhow, great discussion you two!!

Thanks Marcus Aurelius. I believe the Apocalypse was addressed to the seven churches of Asia-Minor, each a major city along a major Roman highway. That would ensure the message would spread very quickly.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now
Sign in to follow this  
Followers 2

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.