Blurred Lines

[ambelamba]

Trust me, I hate that song. I prefer Lift Me Up or House of the Rising Sun (cover by FFDP).

Anyway, I came to realize that the boundary between theism and non-theism can be really blurry, depending on the definition of God. In fact, many of spiritual principles that contradict each other can have same kind of problem. Is that bad? I don't think so.

Rather than seeing religion and faith as the center of our lives, we should see them as instruments, no more no less. This is how we can convince ourselves that the concept of religion itself is not that harmful to mankind.

[Davros of Skaro]

Trust me, I hate that song. I prefer Lift Me Up or House of the Rising Sun (cover by FFDP).

Anyway, I came to realize that the boundary between theism and non-theism can be really blurry, depending on the definition of God. In fact, many of spiritual principles that contradict each other can have same kind of problem. Is that bad? I don't think so.

Rather than seeing religion and faith as the center of our lives, we should see them as instruments, no more no less. This is how we can convince ourselves that the concept of religion itself is not that harmful to mankind.

The Abrahamic God does not allow what you suggest.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Trust me, I hate that song. I prefer Lift Me Up or House of the Rising Sun (cover by FFDP).

Anyway, I came to realize that the boundary between theism and non-theism can be really blurry, depending on the definition of God. In fact, many of spiritual principles that contradict each other can have same kind of problem. Is that bad? I don't think so.

Rather than seeing religion and faith as the center of our lives, we should see them as instruments, no more no less. This is how we can convince ourselves that the concept of religion itself is not that harmful to mankind.

I agree. They are a tool for guidance and interaction, but beyond that it becomes a tool with which to use and exploit others.

[J. K.]

I agree. They are a tool for guidance and interaction, but beyond that it becomes a tool with which to use and exploit others.

To paraphrase another hotbed issue: "Religion doesn't control people; people control people."

I think the control issue only exists because of the people who want to be in control of everything, and that desire crosses all boundaries. True religion should focus only on a person's personal relationship with his higher power.

[Grandpa Greenman]

People invented religion, without people there is no religion. People without religion are still people.

Edited March 31, 2014 by GreenmansGod

[Davros of Skaro]

To paraphrase another hotbed issue: "Religion doesn't control people; people control people."

I think the control issue only exists because of the people who want to be in control of everything, and that desire crosses all boundaries. True religion should focus only on a person's personal relationship with his higher power.

NonReligious people miss out on pearls of wisdom and do not understand.

1 Peter 2:18-20

18 Slaves, in reverent fear of God submit yourselves to your masters, not only to those who are good and considerate, but also to those who are harsh. 19 For it is commendable if someone bears up under the pain of unjust suffering because they are conscious of God. 20 But how is it to your credit if you receive a beating for doing wrong and endure it? But if you suffer for doing good and you endure it, this is commendable before God.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Davros, that is the kind of Scripture a thiest will spend 10 pages of typing trying to explain why is means something other than what is written. Should be interesting.

[Davros of Skaro]

Davros, that is the kind of Scripture a thiest will spend 10 pages of typing trying to explain why is means something other than what is written. Should be interesting.

PA recently offered the apologist spin on it.

Slavery was needed otherwise the inquisition, crusades, and rejection of scientific inquiry would not be possible in the dark ages (not like that, but you understand.)

[+Paranoid Android]

PA recently offered the apologist spin on it.

Slavery was needed otherwise the inquisition, crusades, and rejection of scientific inquiry would not be possible in the dark ages (not like that, but you understand.)

That's not even close to what I said, but such misquotes are par for the course, it seems. At least it is so with you. Edited April 1, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[+Paranoid Android]

Davros, that is the kind of Scripture a thiest will spend 10 pages of typing trying to explain why is means something other than what is written. Should be interesting.

Actually, it means exactly what it says - submit to the earthly authorities, including slaves to submit to their masters. If you're going to be punished, then at least make sure you're innocent so that you have no reason to be punished and the evil is entirely on their shoulders and not yours.

That really was the quickest 10 pages I've ever written

[Davros of Skaro]

That's not even close to what I said, but such misquotes are par for the course, it seems. At least it is so with you.

" (not like that, but you understand.)"

GmG understands.

I do not feel like fishing for your qoutes, but slavery was needed in the Bible including in the Roman Empire in order to establish the Christian Church in the context of the times.

If I had to make excuses for a deity that in reality I am more moral than said deity, would make me snap out of it.

[+Paranoid Android]

" (not like that, but you understand.)"

GmG understands.

I do not feel like fishing for your qoutes, but slavery was needed in the Bible including in the Roman Empire in order to establish the Christian Church in the context of the times.

If I had to make excuses for a deity that in reality I am more moral than said deity, would make me snap out of it.

Completely different. But if you choose to say otherwise, I can't stop you. Good morning,

[libstaK]

Actually, it means exactly what it says - submit to the earthly authorities, including slaves to submit to their masters. If you're going to be punished, then at least make sure you're innocent so that you have no reason to be punished and the evil is entirely on their shoulders and not yours.

That really was the quickest 10 pages I've ever written

Or even less pages "two wrongs do not make a right". Meeting evil with evil is not going to end evil.

[Davros of Skaro]

Completely different. But if you choose to say otherwise, I can't stop you. Good morning,

I do not believe in slavery in any context, but your supposed omnipotent God does.Don't blink.

[+Paranoid Android]

I do not believe in slavery in any context, but your supposed omnipotent God does.Don't blink.

None of which bears on the answer I gave in an unrelated context about 1st century Roman society. You've chosen to misquote my view to support yours. Kudos to you, on that, and as such..... Good morning....

[Davros of Skaro]

None of which bears on the answer I gave in an unrelated context about 1st century Roman society. You've chosen to misquote my view to support yours. Kudos to you, on that, and as such..... Good morning....

My post which you responded to is merely satire on your apologist writings.

I will let others judge for themselves.

(One of your apologies)

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=262979&st=270#entry5109238

(see Permanent enslavement)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Bible_and_slavery

Leviticus 25:44-46

New International Version (NIV)

44 “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy

slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of

their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them

to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule

over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Leviticus+25:44-46

Don't blink.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Slavery, the treatment of women, etc.... is why I have long questioned the Bible as a moral guide. It is not "holy scripture" it is a book written my old men with nothing better to do and you can say that about all so called "holy scripture." Gods don't write books people do. If one is in need of a moral compass I could think of a lot of better books than the Torah, Bible or Quran. If you want a list I can post one, but It will be about 10 pages long.

[Davros of Skaro]

Slavery, the treatment of women, etc.... is why I have long questioned the Bible as a moral guide. It is not "holy scripture" it is a book written my old men with nothing better to do and you can say that about all so called "holy scripture." Gods don't write books people do. If one is in need of a moral compass I could think of a lot of better books than the Torah, Bible or Quran. If you want a list I can post one, but It will be about 10 pages long.

God is pro late, and post term abortion.

Hosea 13:16

New International Version (NIV)

¹⁶ The people of Samaria must bear their guilt,

because they have rebelled against their God.

They will fall by the sword;

their little ones will be dashed to the ground,

their pregnant women ripped open.”

[Perceptivum]

People invented religion, without people there is no religion. People without religion are still people.

I wonder what you are trying to convey here. I can see both sides of your statement, with any negative response to what you wrote you are still right. With that written, there is no doubt religion is man-made (merely look up the definition of religion). That would be liking saying, "People invented cars, without people there are no cars. People without cars are still people." You must follow logic to the end and doing so you will find that God is God, with or without people. God was in existence before He made us and He made us for His glory not our own. God does not need us, He wants us; God does not need our man-made religion, He just wants a relationship with you (like Father to son).

[Davros of Skaro]

I wonder what you are trying to convey here. I can see both sides of your statement, with any negative response to what you wrote you are still right. With that written, there is no doubt religion is man-made (merely look up the definition of religion). That would be liking saying, "People invented cars, without people there are no cars. People without cars are still people." You must follow logic to the end and doing so you will find that God is God, with or without people. God was in existence before He made us and He made us for His glory not our own. God does not need us, He wants us; God does not need our man-made religion, He just wants a relationship with you (like Father to son).

Deuteronomy 22:23-24

New International Version (NIV)

23 If a man happens to meet in a town a virgin pledged to be married and he sleeps with her, 24

you shall take both of them to the gate of that town and stone them to death—the young woman

because she was in a town and did not scream for help, and the man because he violated another

man’s wife. You must purge the evil from among you.

Deuteronomy 22:25-27

New International Version (NIV)

25 But if out in the country a man happens to meet a young woman pledged to be married and rapes

her, only the man who has done this shall die. 26 Do nothing to the woman; she has committed no

sin deserving death. This case is like that of someone who attacks and murders a neighbor, 27

for the man found the young woman out in the country, and though the betrothed woman screamed,

there was no one to rescue her.

Deuteronomy 22:28-29

New International Version (NIV)

28 If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are

discovered, 29 he shall pay her father fifty shekels[a] of silver. He must marry the young

woman, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

[Grandpa Greenman]

I wonder what you are trying to convey here. I can see both sides of your statement, with any negative response to what you wrote you are still right. With that written, there is no doubt religion is man-made (merely look up the definition of religion). That would be liking saying, "People invented cars, without people there are no cars. People without cars are still people." You must follow logic to the end and doing so you will find that God is God, with or without people. God was in existence before He made us and He made us for His glory not our own. God does not need us, He wants us; God does not need our man-made religion, He just wants a relationship with you (like Father to son).

Slavery, the treatment of women, etc.... is why I have long questioned the Bible as a moral guide. It is not "holy scripture" it is a book written my (typo) by old men with nothing better to do and you can say that about all so called "holy scripture." Gods don't write books people do. If one is in need of a moral compass I could think of a lot of better books than the Torah, Bible or Quran. If you want a list I can post one, but It will be about 10 pages long.

Does that help, There are many different religions in the world with many different scriptures. If God created religion, wouldn't they all be the same, but they are not the same. Religion is a creation of human beings in an attempt to explain what they don't understand and organize societies. Here is a long list of religions.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_religions_and_spiritual_traditions

[+Paranoid Android]

Slavery, the treatment of women, etc.... is why I have long questioned the Bible as a moral guide. It is not "holy scripture" it is a book written my old men with nothing better to do and you can say that about all so called "holy scripture." Gods don't write books people do. If one is in need of a moral compass I could think of a lot of better books than the Torah, Bible or Quran. If you want a list I can post one, but It will be about 10 pages long.

If the "10 page" length is as wordy as my 10 page reply to you earlier in this thread, by all means post away

What I can say for certain, though, is that by following the Bible, I became a better person than I was.

[eight bits]

PA

Actually, it means exactly what it says - submit to the earthly authorities, including slaves to submit to their masters. If you're going to be punished, then at least make sure you're innocent so that you have no reason to be punished and the evil is entirely on their shoulders and not yours.

I would be curious to know under what circumstances, in your view, the owner of another human being could justly punish his or her slave, so that the evil of slavery was, in part, on the shoulders of the slave.

Less melodramatically, did Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. err in not submitting to the earthly authorities such as Bull Connor, and therefore some jail time was appropriate in the eyes of God? Given a visible lack of submission, was the evil of segregation, in part, on the shoulders of the uppity African Americans?

[Leonardo]

To the OP, the only case I am immediately aware of in which there is such a vagueness of definition in the line between theism and non-theism, is in the case of Deists who believe their deity has neither interaction with, interest in, nor influence on, any 'mundane' affairs.

In this respect, Deism is as Secularism is. However, in all other respects and cases the boundary between theism and non-theism is, imo, clearly defined.

Edited April 3, 2014 by Leonardo

[+Paranoid Android]

PA

I would be curious to know under what circumstances, in your view, the owner of another human being could justly punish his or her slave, so that the evil of slavery was, in part, on the shoulders of the slave.

Less melodramatically, did Reverend Martin Luther King, Jr. err in not submitting to the earthly authorities such as Bull Connor, and therefore some jail time was appropriate in the eyes of God? Given a visible lack of submission, was the evil of segregation, in part, on the shoulders of the uppity African Americans?

To the first, 8bits, I'm not sure I can answer that. Each slave owner had their own idea of what was right or not. Personally, I'd say no such situation exists, but I'm saying that in 2014 AD, which obviously makes a difference. Some owners were kind, others weren't. The point of the passage, however, wasn't on the behaviour of the owner, but the actions of the slave (other passages in scripture address how believing slave owners should treat their slaves). The dominant point in this passage was that if you were treated harshly, what good is served by giving the owner a reason (even trumped up) to act? Isn't it better to do the right thing, then let the evil actions of the master be doubly shown.

As to the second paragraph, the text we're discussing wasn't written in the context of such blatant vilification and racism that existed in America's not-so-distant past, so it's not quite the same situation. In some countries, it's illegal to distribute Bibles, and yet Christians to this day have missionaries in said countries giving away Bibles.

The answer to this paradox and the situation with MLK Jr, is remarkably similar (though arrived at through different passages).

Edited April 3, 2014 by Paranoid Android