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The Rapture and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The heretical Rapture doctrine is almost wholly built upon this passage alone. But it is taken out of context, the Thessalonians were grieved or were conceitful, over the fact of who would be of greater advantage when Christ returns, the living or the dead. The church in Thessalonica and Paul himself believed Christ may return any moment in their lifetimes. So Paul addressed their grief or conceits, by maintaining the living in Christ will never be any means precede the dead in Christ. No, Christ will resurrect the dead first and then the living will be caught up in the air to join them to meet the Lord upon His Second Coming.

By which, the dead and the living will in a twinkling of an eye will be transformed (and resurrected) into their glorified bodies to be with the Lord forever.

Grace and Peace.

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The honorable dead and the honorably living, reunited.

Not sure where I was going with that, but it sounded nice.

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Hi, correct me if I am wrong here:

So christ will come back, take the dead then come back for the living and take them all to the lord?

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1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The heretical Rapture doctrine is almost wholly built upon this passage alone. But it is taken out of context, the Thessalonians were grieved or were conceitful, over the fact of who would be of greater advantage when Christ returns, the living or the dead. The church in Thessalonica and Paul himself believed Christ may return any moment in their lifetimes. So Paul addressed their grief or conceits, by maintaining the living in Christ will never be any means precede the dead in Christ. No, Christ will resurrect the dead first and then the living will be caught up in the air to join them to meet the Lord upon His Second Coming.

By which, the dead and the living will in a twinkling of an eye will be transformed (and resurrected) into their glorified bodies to be with the Lord forever.

Grace and Peace.

Let me ask you a somewhat silly question then?

When Christ does return as shown in Revelation 19: 14, who exactly comes with him?

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

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Posted (edited)

Hi, correct me if I am wrong here:

So christ will come back, take the dead then come back for the living and take them all to the lord?

The book of Revelation details the entire Rapture and the events thereof as told by John, who they were delivered to in a vision. This account details Jesus' reign over the Earth for 1,000 years. I personally am confused on this matter as well but the way i interpret it, Jesus is to collect those already dead and whisk their bodies to heaven to reunite their bodies with their souls, and then those remaining living will live under Jesus' reign for 1,000 years. I will clarify that although i'm not particularly a believer in Christian faith, now am i a non-believer.

Eirini

~B

Edited by BNDGK

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Hi, correct me if I am wrong here:

So christ will come back, take the dead then come back for the living and take them all to the lord?

The belief - which I also hold - is that Christ (The Lord and Creator of everything that is) will return in the air and those who are dead who were believers will be resurrected and given new, eternal bodies and almost simultaneously those who are on earth that day who are believers will also be transformed into those eternal bodies as well - without dying. This group returns to heaven for a 7 year period when mass chaos will be ruling here on the planet. During that time many, many more humans will become believers in the Lord (Jesus) and at the second coming (a different event) Christ will actually appear in Jerusalem and his feet will touch down on the mount of Olives. At that point there will be a great earthquake that creates a new valley there. He will make war against the enemies of Israel and will take over his role as King of all the earth. Those living and dead who went with him 7 years earlier will return with him to help in the work of healing the world and teaching his ways to all.

A great many Christians do not believe this way. They say there is one return and no rapture. If they are correct then apparently God was lying when he said he would keep us from the temptation to come in that day. A temptation to believe a great delusion which will appear in the world at that time.

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Apparently Jesus returns with angels but I don't beleive this

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Can someone tell me how long the dead have been buried before jesus comes to collect them...does this mean that all those who have died so far, that their souls have not gone to heaven..as thought? Many christians take solice in the thought that their loved ones did go to heaven when buried, so why would christ want to come and collect them now?

I see it mentions only the believers, today there are many different christian cults, does that include them all?

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Posted (edited)

I've understood that the dead people's souls rise to heaven but they are reunited in the second coming of Christ with their heavenly bodies, as said already by 'and then'.

Edited by BNDGK

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I've understood that the dead people's souls rise to heaven but they are reunited in the second coming of Christ with their heavenly bodies, as said already by 'and then'.

I saw that bit, its confusing....

"will return in the air and those who are dead who were believers will be resurrected and given new, eternal bodies."

It mentions the 2nd coming as a different event, after more have become believers.

So when is this second coming of christ, as there have been christians who have died near on 2 thousand years ago and have still not been reunited with their heavenly bodied..or "new" heavenly bodies.

And what about the different cults today, what about those who believe in the lord but not christ? If they only believe in the lord, then how does this theory work? Or it doesn't, its only a christian thing?

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(Whatever the interpretation, we're gonna need chairs.)

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It mentions the 2nd coming as a different event, after more have become believers.

So when is this second coming of christ, as there have been christians who have died near on 2 thousand years ago and have still not been reunited with their heavenly bodied..or "new" heavenly bodies.

And what about the different cults today, what about those who believe in the lord but not christ? If they only believe in the lord, then how does this theory work? Or it doesn't, its only a christian thing?

As for the bold:

As i understand it.. The second coming is the rapture. Jesus will resurrect all of the dead in Christ, reunite those souls that dies before with their bodies. Their souls have been in heaven for however long they've been dead, but their eternal, flawless bodies were yet not united until this point.. But who can say. I cannot answer with completely correctness for several reasons, one being i'm not exactly and avid church goer, just an interested interpreter of scripture. Another being that anyone could interpret scripture from the Bible in a thousand ways no matter how similar they might be.

As for the second part... I have no idea. I'm as confused on that as you are although the Bible does say that those who don't confess to Jesus Christ and be 'saved' will not go to heaven BUT... Isn't the whole idea that in the Holly Trinity.. God the father and God the Son (being Jesus) are one? So does that mean to truly believe in God is to believe in Jesus or...?

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As for the bold:

As i understand it.. The second coming is the rapture. Jesus will resurrect all of the dead in Christ, reunite those souls that dies before with their bodies. Their souls have been in heaven for however long they've been dead, but their eternal, flawless bodies were yet not united until this point.. But who can say. I cannot answer with completely correctness for several reasons, one being i'm not exactly and avid church goer, just an interested interpreter of scripture. Another being that anyone could interpret scripture from the Bible in a thousand ways no matter how similar they might be.

As for the second part... I have no idea. I'm as confused on that as you are although the Bible does say that those who don't confess to Jesus Christ and be 'saved' will not go to heaven BUT... Isn't the whole idea that in the Holly Trinity.. God the father and God the Son (being Jesus) are one? So does that mean to truly believe in God is to believe in Jesus or...?

Same here, I am not a believer or follower, but am interested in the scriptures, mainly because of the influence it has had and still has on man.

I do not often get involved in the religious threads, but sometimes its interesting to hear some interpretations, cos they seem to vary.

I really want to know about this second coming, apparently beginning at the mount of olives where the dead will be resurrected 1st......I think christ will find the area has changed a little over the years.

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Can someone tell me how long the dead have been buried before jesus comes to collect them...does this mean that all those who have died so far, that their souls have not gone to heaven..as thought? Many christians take solice in the thought that their loved ones did go to heaven when buried, so why would christ want to come and collect them now?

I see it mentions only the believers, today there are many different christian cults, does that include them all?

You know how a dead body bloats up?

That's the spirit trying to escape the body.

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I saw that bit, its confusing....

"will return in the air and those who are dead who were believers will be resurrected and given new, eternal bodies."

It mentions the 2nd coming as a different event, after more have become believers.

So when is this second coming of christ, as there have been christians who have died near on 2 thousand years ago and have still not been reunited with their heavenly bodied..or "new" heavenly bodies.

And what about the different cults today, what about those who believe in the lord but not christ? If they only believe in the lord, then how does this theory work? Or it doesn't, its only a christian thing?

Your confusion is shared by MANY and it is the fault of the followers of Christ (myself included) that a better understanding has not been made available. As for the "cults" if you mean the different denominations I.E. Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Unitarian etc. I don't think any of that matters - those differences are man made, not decreed by God. To be saved from wrath and to be with Christ upon his return and forever after one must BELIEVE the gospel: he died as a sacrifice for all sins, he was buried, he arose 3 days later according to scripture and now sits at the right hand of the Father. When Christians speak of the "Lord" they are speaking of Christ ("the anointed one") The last part of your question is the one that has always caused me the most discomfort and confusion. According to the bible Jesus said he was the "way, the truth and the life" and that no one could go to the Father except through him. If this is taken at face value and is correctly understood then this sentences every believer other than Christians to separation from God the Father forever. I cannot imagine that since I fully trust that I worship a loving God. I expect a great many of the "mysteries" of God will be made clear to us once we have finished our testing here on earth.
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You know how a dead body bloats up?

That's the spirit trying to escape the body.

I understand this is not the medical explanation.

Your confusion is shared by MANY and it is the fault of the followers of Christ (myself included) that a better understanding has not been made available. As for the "cults" if you mean the different denominations I.E. Catholic, Episcopal, Methodist, Unitarian etc. I don't think any of that matters - those differences are man made, not decreed by God. To be saved from wrath and to be with Christ upon his return and forever after one must BELIEVE the gospel: he died as a sacrifice for all sins, he was buried, he arose 3 days later according to scripture and now sits at the right hand of the Father. When Christians speak of the "Lord" they are speaking of Christ ("the anointed one") The last part of your question is the one that has always caused me the most discomfort and confusion. According to the bible Jesus said he was the "way, the truth and the life" and that no one could go to the Father except through him. If this is taken at face value and is correctly understood then this sentences every believer other than Christians to separation from God the Father forever. I cannot imagine that since I fully trust that I worship a loving God. I expect a great many of the "mysteries" of God will be made clear to us once we have finished our testing here on earth.

As the word christ is from the Greek term referring to the messiah, and it is only the christians who have chosen to recognise jesus as theirs, (among the many others ) , as stated in the NEW testament, then you are exactly right....what about the connection with God after death.....and before?

I am not a worshipper of Gods, BUT I can fully understand why the Greeks and Romans had gods for what they saw, felt , eg: sun, moon, seas, etc etc etc. What has always confused me is how and why these gods were replaced by one ? To discount all your beliefs in the gods and then separate the believers from the non in terms of who will be chosen, is IMO a typical man made theory which separates and divides mankind, which as we have seen through history, does not always lie well in terms of peace.

Basically, I am asking, surely the God had the last word in who ia chosen and not jesus?

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1 Thessalonians was probably written by the end of AD 52 and before 70 AD, the year the Romans destroyed the Temple at Jarusalem........................................... Rapture is not a future happening. I think St. Paul misunderstood Jesus' prophesy.

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I understand this is not the medical explanation.

As the word christ is from the Greek term referring to the messiah, and it is only the christians who have chosen to recognise jesus as theirs, (among the many others ) , as stated in the NEW testament, then you are exactly right....what about the connection with God after death.....and before?

I am not a worshipper of Gods, BUT I can fully understand why the Greeks and Romans had gods for what they saw, felt , eg: sun, moon, seas, etc etc etc. What has always confused me is how and why these gods were replaced by one ? To discount all your beliefs in the gods and then separate the believers from the non in terms of who will be chosen, is IMO a typical man made theory which separates and divides mankind, which as we have seen through history, does not always lie well in terms of peace.

Basically, I am asking, surely the God had the last word in who ia chosen and not jesus?

Christians believe in a God that has 3 aspects. Just as a man can be a father, a husband, a son and a brother yet still be one man so can God be 3 things in one and still all of them be God. Christians believe that Jesus IS God. John 1 : 1-4

John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Christians believe that John is speaking of Jesus here - "the Word". He was with God from the beginning and in fact WAS God. He made everything so he is also the Creator.

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Posted (edited)

Christians believe in a God that has 3 aspects. Just as a man can be a father, a husband, a son and a brother yet still be one man so can God be 3 things in one and still all of them be God. Christians believe that Jesus IS God. John 1 : 1-4

John 1

King James Version (KJV)

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

2 The same was in the beginning with God.

3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men. Christians believe that John is speaking of Jesus here - "the Word". He was with God from the beginning and in fact WAS God. He made everything so he is also the Creator.

If after all those years of mans time on Earth, through evolution and time, for "god" to show himself in the form of jesus is very debatable. What about all those who believed in him before jesus? Why would any god want to change the beliefs of its followers and ask them to believe in a man who's theories differed?

IF god is infact jesus, then where does this leave the other gods....cos from what I understand, many people now believe there is only one god.....and if jesus does not come into the equation, well this could get tricky....oh wait!

Edited by freetoroam

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The Rapture is a very misunderstood subject for believers because the number of different viewpoints are almost as varied as the number of denominations.

Personally I accept the rapture as biblical not because I'm led to believe it due to a single verse as GoSC suggests in the OP, but because it tallies with the way Revelation is read as well as the major themes expressed throughout the bible.

For example, the Great Flood is often viewed as a parallel for the Great Tribulation and what we have there is a group of people chosen by God for their faith and their loyalty who are saved from a destruction promised by God to all mankind.

Noah and his family are parallels for the saints of the Last Days, who will be spared from the Great tribulation.

We see this theme of a remnant always being chosen to escape the fate of the majority a number of times and one would have to be blind not to see it when we look at the New Testament and Revelation within the context of the modern world.

The bible clearly states that the period we are living in is a pause within the plan of God as it relates to Israel.

Luke 21:24

24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Romans 11:25

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

When that time comes the pause will end and the plan will continue forward. There are a specific number of people that will be saved and that number when complete will determine the completion of the body of Christ, or the Bride of Christ as expressed in a number of verses.

When that occurs the following verse is fulfilled...

Revelation 19:7

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

If this is the case in heaven, then it also means that there are no believers left on earth. They will have either been taken in the Rapture or they have all been thoroughly destroyed by the rest of the human population. There is no 3rd option here.

So when the armies of heaven come down with Christ, it is a direct reference to all the believers who are the church, the body and Bride of Christ. It as much as says so...

Revelation 19:14

14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

The reference to fine linens, white and clean, is a reference to the cleansing by the blood of Christ and is easily established in scripture.

When Christ returns in Glory, he will be accompanied by his Bride.

I wonder how GoSC will explain that away...

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If after all those years of mans time on Earth, through evolution and time, for "god" to show himself in the form of jesus is very debatable. What about all those who believed in him before jesus? Why would any god want to change the beliefs of its followers and ask them to believe in a man who's theories differed?

IF god is infact jesus, then where does this leave the other gods....cos from what I understand, many people now believe there is only one god.....and if jesus does not come into the equation, well this could get tricky....oh wait!

Christians believe the bible. Others around the world of other faiths believe as they will. NO ONE has proof of the veracity of their faith - if they did it would not be faith :) But the most important thing in this life for most people is to love, be loved and to be at peace with themselves and others. Christ's message - if followed - provides those things. People are free to choose.

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Posted (edited)

I thought the above video about "after the rapture pet care" was actually a joke and it had me laughing out loud...until I sadly realized that it's true. 'Services' like this just highlight, IMHO, the ridiculousness of this whole rapture business. People just use it to make a buck.

Edited by Marcus Aurelius
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I thought the above video about "after the rapture pet care" was actually a joke and it had me laughing out loud...until I sadly realized that it's true. 'Services' like this just highlight, IMHO, the ridiculousness of this whole rapture business. People just use it to make a buck.

Sad but true.

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Posted (edited)

I thought the above video about "after the rapture pet care" was actually a joke and it had me laughing out loud...until I sadly realized that it's true. 'Services' like this just highlight, IMHO, the ridiculousness of this whole rapture business. People just use it to make a buck

The premise of the rapture as most who await it understand it is that those who are not of their particular denomination or faith will be left behind to face the tribulation while they themselves will be lifted up into heaven etc. It is based on judgement of their fellow man, which is not our job at all. It is a sad indictment of the effort people make to fully comprehend the nature of their faith - aka: no effort at all beyond how it serves them. I once knew a young couple who went through the process of baptism in a "born again" christian denomination. They were non-practicing, in fact their lifestyle was far from any christian ideal - I asked why they stopped going and was told it was too restrictive but it's ok because the real purpose was to ensure they would be forgiven and raptured and they had achieved that so they were "safe". Just mind blowing really that anyone would think like that.

Edit to add: For myself, I would be amused and not at all put out if it turned out that all the pets got taken up to heaven for their unconditional love of their owners and us owners stayed here to face tribulation for undervaluing the love and loyalty offered to us by our pets. :whistle:

Edited by libstaK
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