The Rapture and 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

[buckskin scout]

The Rapture is a very misunderstood subject for believers because the number of different viewpoints are almost as varied as the number of denominations.

Personally I accept the rapture as biblical not because I'm led to believe it due to a single verse as GoSC suggests in the OP, but because it tallies with the way Revelation is read as well as the major themes expressed throughout the bible.

For example, the Great Flood is often viewed as a parallel for the Great Tribulation and what we have there is a group of people chosen by God for their faith and their loyalty who are saved from a destruction promised by God to all mankind.

Noah and his family are parallels for the saints of the Last Days, who will be spared from the Great tribulation.

We see this theme of a remnant always being chosen to escape the fate of the majority a number of times and one would have to be blind not to see it when we look at the New Testament and Revelation within the context of the modern world.

The bible clearly states that the period we are living in is a pause within the plan of God as it relates to Israel.

Luke 21:24

24 They will fall by the edge of the sword and be led captive among all nations, and Jerusalem will be trampled underfoot by the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.

Romans 11:25

25 Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

When that time comes the pause will end and the plan will continue forward. There are a specific number of people that will be saved and that number when complete will determine the completion of the body of Christ, or the Bride of Christ as expressed in a number of verses.

When that occurs the following verse is fulfilled...

Revelation 19:7

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

If this is the case in heaven, then it also means that there are no believers left on earth. They will have either been taken in the Rapture or they have all been thoroughly destroyed by the rest of the human population. There is no 3rd option here.

So when the armies of heaven come down with Christ, it is a direct reference to all the believers who are the church, the body and Bride of Christ. It as much as says so...

Revelation 19:14

14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

The reference to fine linens, white and clean, is a reference to the cleansing by the blood of Christ and is easily established in scripture.

When Christ returns in Glory, he will be accompanied by his Bride.

I wonder how GoSC will explain that away...

Jerusalem is the harlot given her divorce papers and falls under judgement throughout Revelation.

The Bride is the Church. Chapter 19 concerns the marriage between Christ and His Church upon the destruction of Jerusalem and the death of the Old Covenant due to harlotry.

[buckskin scout]

Let me ask you a somewhat silly question then?

When Christ does return as shown in Revelation 19: 14, who exactly comes with him?

11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12 His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13 He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14 The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean.

This can be interpreted two ways, the first is those occupying Jesus are the Angels see Deuteronomy 33:2, Matt. 13:41,47-50, Matt. 24:31, 25:30-32, Luke 9:26, 2 Thess. 1:7-8,

or they are the saints slain during the Neronian persecution, 66AD-68AD.

[Jor-el]

This can be interpreted two ways, the first is those occupying Jesus are the Angels see Deuteronomy 33:2, Matt. 13:41,47-50, Matt. 24:31, 25:30-32, Luke 9:26, 2 Thess. 1:7-8,

or they are the saints slain during the Neronian persecution, 66AD-68AD.

They are in fact the bride, the church itself and before this scene where Jesus returns the entire church is present and accounted for in heaven

Revelation 19:7

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

What this means is that there are no more believers on earth... at all.

Explain if you please how exactly that could happen?

Edited April 8, 2014 by Jor-el

[buckskin scout]

They are in fact the bride, the church itself and before this scene where Jesus returns the entire church is present and accounted for in heaven

Revelation 19:7

7 Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

What this means is that there are no more believers on earth... at all.

Explain if you please how exactly that could happen?

Because Revelation is literally a tale of two cities, Jerusalem and New Jerusalem, and a tale of two Brides, Israel and the Church.

But also mingled amongst this book is the Neronian and Jewish persecutions of the Christians and the Roman Empire aka the Red Dragon which Jerusalem sits upon.

Chapter 19, is depicting 70AD, Jerusalem is literally the marriage supper, the divorced harlot is judged (remember the prophecies Jesus spoke of in the Gospels, where the eagles *vultures* gather, days of vengeance, and the blood of that current generation in which Jesus was teaching would be the same generation all the blood of every prophet and saint slain numbering from Abel to Zecharias *and Jesus* would be required of this same generation, that this same generation would not pass before they witnessed and participated this in judgment), while Christ marries His bride.

Edited April 9, 2014 by GoSC

[Jor-el]

Jerusalem is the harlot given her divorce papers and falls under judgement throughout Revelation.

The Bride is the Church. Chapter 19 concerns the marriage between Christ and His Church upon the destruction of Jerusalem and the death of the Old Covenant due to harlotry.

Funny that, I don't see any of that in chapter 19.... but then again I'm a mere literalist, really deep, deep, deep.... metaphors seem to pass me by...

[buckskin scout]

Funny that, I don't see any of that in chapter 19.... but then again I'm a mere literalist, really deep, deep, deep.... metaphors seem to pass me by...

So at a future date you believe the all the land of Israel with flow with blood up to the height of 5-6 feet in blood?

That the four horseman will literally ride across the globe?

[Jor-el]

So at a future date you believe the all the land of Israel with flow with blood up to the height of 5-6 feet in blood?

That the four horseman will literally ride across the globe?

Yes, the amount of blood shed will rise that high, its about what you will get when you instantly kill millions of soldiers gathered in one place.

The 4 horsemen have names do they not?

Conquest, War, Famine, and Death, I believe they are around already.... and have been since man fell.

But that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Revelation is quite clear that the whole church is present in heaven when Jesus comes.... so when exactly do you think that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 takes place?

¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that this is not the 2nd coming and scripture cannot contradict itself, so I would like to know how you would reason this out?

Edited April 10, 2014 by Jor-el

[buckskin scout]

Yes, the amount of blood shed will rise that high, its about what you will get when you instantly kill millions of soldiers gathered in one place.

The 4 horsemen have names do they not?

Conquest, War, Famine, and Death, I believe they are around already.... and have been since man fell.

But that is irrelevant to the issue at hand. Revelation is quite clear that the whole church is present in heaven when Jesus comes.... so when exactly do you think that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 takes place?

¹⁶ For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. ¹⁷ After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.

It is clear that this is not the 2nd coming and scripture cannot contradict itself, so I would like to know how you would reason this out?

And why do you consider this not the 2nd Coming? Look at the evidence I put forth...

A ) 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

B ) 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, 51-52

²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

²⁴ Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

²⁵ For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

²⁶ The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

²⁷ For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

²⁸ And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

⁵¹ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

⁵² In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

C ) 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

⁶ Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

¹⁰ When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

D ) 2 Peter 3:5-7, 10-12

⁵ For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

⁶ Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

⁷ But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

¹² Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

E ) Revelation 20:9-12

⁹ And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

¹⁰ And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

¹¹ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

F ) Matthew 13:37-42, 47-50

³⁷ He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

³⁸ The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

³⁹ The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

⁴⁰ As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

⁴¹ The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

⁴² And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

⁴⁷ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

⁴⁸ Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

⁴⁹ So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

⁵⁰ And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

G ) Matthew 25:31-34, 40-41, 45-46

³¹ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

³² And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³ And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

⁴⁰ And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

⁴⁵ Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

H ) John 5:28-29

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

I ) John 6:39-40, 44, 54

³⁹ And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

⁴⁰ And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁴⁴ No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁵⁴ Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

J ) John 12:48

⁴⁸ He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

K ) Acts 24:15

¹⁵ And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

I dont see you pretribs and premills presenting as much voluminous evidence that there is only one Second Coming of Christ upon which the resurrection of the Just and the wicked, judgment, New Heavens and New Earth ALL OCCUR ON THE LAST DAY.

Furthermore, what have you to answer to the 7 verses in the Revelation that states believers must overcome tribulation!

L ) Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26-27

⁷ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

¹¹ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

¹⁷ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

²⁶ And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

²⁷ And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

M ) Revelation 3:5, 12, 21

⁵ He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

¹² Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

²¹ To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

All you Rapture believers can put forth is misrenderings and adding to God's word. Whereas I have literally presented dozens of the verses that are in agreement with one another that there will be one Second Coming with one resurrection, one judgment, one destruction of the heavens and of earth.

Edited April 11, 2014 by GoSC

[Jor-el]

And why do you consider this not the 2nd Coming? Look at the evidence I put forth...

A little too many quotes there my friend, just stick to the issue and we'll be ok. The 1st and most important reason why this is NOT a scene from the 2nd coming of Christ is the difference in scene. In 1Thessalonians 4:16-17, the scene is the atmosphere, the air, the clouds of earth. It says so right there. Yet when we look for the specific scene of Christs 2nd coming we find something very different.

Zechariah 14:3-4

³ Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. ⁴ On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

This verse states that his feet will STAND on the Mount of Olives.....

See two completely different scenes... Zechariah links directly to Revelation 19:19, and the battle of Armageddon. At no point do we have this scene of the faithful being changed and meeting the Lord in the Air. At no point are the two scenes related in any way. As I stated earlier When Jesus does appear, he is already accompanied by the armies of Heaven, which are clearly the redeemed as they are identified by their white clean linens. They aren't angels, they are the church. Look at the following verses and see for yourself...

Revelation 3:4

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:18

I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Revelation 7:9

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 7:14

I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:7-8

⁷ Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

⁸ Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

I doubt even you can refuse to accept that.

But here is the kicker that you refuse to see, The bride is in heaven is pronounced ready before Jesus actually comes. There is absolutely no way in heaven or hell that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 can be referencing the 2nd coming.

A ) 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17

¹⁶ For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

¹⁷ Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

I think I explained this above. No need to redo it again.

B ) 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, 51-52

²³ But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

²⁴ Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

²⁵ For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

²⁶ The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

²⁷ For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

²⁸ And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

⁵¹ Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

⁵² In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

What makes you think that the 1st part of what you quoted is related to the 2nd part?

I mean that even the bibles divide this chapter into two individual subjects...

"The Resurrection of the Dead" (v12-34) and "The Resurrection Body" (v35-58), they are NOT talking about the same thing and yet you seem to think so by lumping them together.

The resurrection of the dead applies to all people as you well know, believers and unbelievers, yet where in Revelation do you find the resurrection of the believers? You don't. All you actually find is the resurrection of the unbelievers to eternal damnation?, yet at Christ's 2nd coming there they are, resurrected and following him to earth on white horses...

C ) 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10

⁶ Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;

⁷ And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

⁸ In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:

⁹ Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

¹⁰ When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.

Come on, this has nothing to do with the subject. The text is about God punishing those that gave the believers trouble and it is a specific reference to what he will do at the 2nd coming. At no point does this verse indicate that we believers will be on earth to see it happen. If you believe that then again you must reconcile the verse with Revelation 19 stating that the bride is ready and in heaven before Jesus ever comes to earth.

D ) 2 Peter 3:5-7, 10-12

⁵ For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

⁶ Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

⁷ But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

¹⁰ But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

¹¹ Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

¹² Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?

As can clearly be seen by the context the verse is talking about the unbelievers and their unpreparedness when faced with sudden destruction. The reference to the Great Flood makes it absolutely crystal clear that the meaning here is a reference to the unbeliever and not the believer (who happened to be in the Ark). Yes destruction will come upon them like a thief in the night. With great surprise...

E ) Revelation 20:9-12

⁹ And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

¹⁰ And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

¹¹ And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

¹² And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Ah a clear reference to Israel if I ever saw one... I would suggest comparing English translations... the word saints is not in the text! the term is "Gods people" or "Holy people". See: ἅγιος. Also I'm sure you must be aware of this since you actually quoted the verse. This is a reference to the Holy people who live in the Millennial reign of Christ. As I am sure you must know, the church is not part of that little affair. We are not human in the strictest sense anymore at this time, we are already immortal and reigning with Christ.

F ) Matthew 13:37-42, 47-50

³⁷ He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man;

³⁸ The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one;

³⁹ The enemy that sowed them is the devil; the harvest is the end of the world; and the reapers are the angels.

⁴⁰ As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world.

⁴¹ The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity;

⁴² And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

⁴⁷ Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:

⁴⁸ Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.

⁴⁹ So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

⁵⁰ And shall cast them into the furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

Again as I'm sure you must know, this can only be a reference to the Millennium again. Come on it actually says as much in each of the references you put up. ...the harvest is the end of the world ... So shall it be at the end of the world. Clear references to the Millennium if I ever saw any. The Millennium is the End of the Age, the End times of the world, before the final Judgment on the white throne, which believers do NOT partake of. This is basic christian doctrine.

G ) Matthew 25:31-34, 40-41, 45-46

³¹ When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

³² And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

³³ And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

³⁴ Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

⁴⁰ And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

⁴¹ Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

⁴⁵ Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

⁴⁶ And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Again, we have a scene from the White throne Judgment, which is at the end of the Millennium, do you really think this is somehow talking of the church already glorified?

I want you to think carefully about something. If we are saved and do indeed come with Christ at his 2nd coming as is clearly stated in Revelation 19 then who inherits the earth? We do in a way, but we are no longer human in the strictest sense, we have glorified bodies that will never die. We have overcome death, we rule with Christ, so who will actually inherit the world at the inception of the Millennium?

H ) John 5:28-29

²⁸ Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

²⁹ And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

And yet it is clear from scripture that those who are dead in Christ rise and get new glorified bodies either at the moment of the rapture as I believe, or at the moment of Christ's 2nd coming as you believe, but the unbelievers are judged at a different time altogether. At the end of the Millennium, at the White throne Judgment. So while the verse speaks of both, the timing for each is completely different.

I ) John 6:39-40, 44, 54

³⁹ And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

⁴⁰ And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁴⁴ No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

⁵⁴ Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

So are we raised up on the Last day or do we accompany Christ as his bride when he returns? Either way you will have a problem unless you accept that this is speaking of choices to be made rather than actual chronological events, unless scripture contradicts itself...

I dont see you pretribs and premills presenting as much voluminous evidence that there is only one Second Coming of Christ upon which the resurrection of the Just and the wicked, judgment, New Heavens and New Earth ALL OCCUR ON THE LAST DAY.

Is that what revelation says, that it is all in one day? If not then you must decide if the term "Last Day" means what it means or if it is a reference to something else. Something like the "End of times", "End of the Age". Or we can simply reject most books of the New testament as being contradictory and proceed with only accepting the Gospels as the Word Of God...

Furthermore, what have you to answer to the 7 verses in the Revelation that states believers must overcome tribulation!

L ) Revelation 2:7, 11, 17, 26-27

⁷ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

¹¹ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

¹⁷ He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

²⁶ And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

²⁷ And he shall rule them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

M ) Revelation 3:5, 12, 21

⁵ He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

¹² Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

²¹ To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

All you Rapture believers can put forth is misrenderings and adding to God's word. Whereas I have literally presented dozens of the verses that are in agreement with one another that there will be one Second Coming with one resurrection, one judgment, one destruction of the heavens and of earth.

And how do you know that this is a direct reference to the Great tribulation rather than simply the daily tribulations in our lives as believers and human beings?

I don't see any references here to the Great Tribulation, care to point them out?

Seriously, I don't think you are prepared for this discussion... Simply quoting verses won't help you unless you know what they are actually referencing...

Edited April 11, 2014 by Jor-el

[buckskin scout]

A little too many quotes there my friend, just stick to the issue and we'll be ok. The 1st and most important reason why this is NOT a scene from the 2nd coming of Christ is the difference in scene. In 1Thessalonians 4:16-17, the scene is the atmosphere, the air, the clouds of earth. It says so right there. Yet when we look for the specific scene of Christs 2nd coming we find something very different.

Zechariah 14:3-4

³ Then the Lord will go out and fight against those nations, as he fights on a day of battle. ⁴ On that day his feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and the Mount of Olives will be split in two from east to west, forming a great valley, with half of the mountain moving north and half moving south.

This verse states that his feet will STAND on the Mount of Olives.....

See two completely different scenes... Zechariah links directly to Revelation 19:19, and the battle of Armageddon. At no point do we have this scene of the faithful being changed and meeting the Lord in the Air. At no point are the two scenes related in any way. As I stated earlier When Jesus does appear, he is already accompanied by the armies of Heaven, which are clearly the redeemed as they are identified by their white clean linens. They aren't angels, they are the church. Look at the following verses and see for yourself...

Revelation 3:4

Yet you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their clothes. They will walk with me, dressed in white, for they are worthy.

Revelation 3:18

I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

Revelation 7:9

After this I looked, and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands.

Revelation 7:14

I answered, “Sir, you know.” And he said, “These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Revelation 19:7-8

⁷ Let us rejoice and be glad and give him glory! For the wedding of the Lamb has come, and his bride has made herself ready.

⁸ Fine linen, bright and clean, was given her to wear.”

I doubt even you can refuse to accept that.

But here is the kicker that you refuse to see, The bride is in heaven is pronounced ready before Jesus actually comes. There is absolutely no way in heaven or hell that 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 can be referencing the 2nd coming.

The Bride is pronounced once Jerusalem and the Old Covenant, the Jewish age has ended in 70AD. The whole chapter 19 is speaking of the judgment upon the Babylonian Whore, (divorced Israel) and God's new Bride... the church.

I think I explained this above. No need to redo it again.

Fine.

What makes you think that the 1st part of what you quoted is related to the 2nd part?

I mean that even the bibles divide this chapter into two individual subjects...

"The Resurrection of the Dead" (v12-34) and "The Resurrection Body" (v35-58), they are NOT talking about the same thing and yet you seem to think so by lumping them together.

The resurrection of the dead applies to all people as you well know, believers and unbelievers, yet where in Revelation do you find the resurrection of the believers? You don't. All you actually find is the resurrection of the unbelievers to eternal damnation?, yet at Christ's 2nd coming there they are, resurrected and following him to earth on white horses...

One question, can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God?

And when the just and unjust are simultaneously resurrected upon Christ's Second Coming, what final enemy is destroyed (for the lack of mortality in whole the universe)?

Baloney, read Deuteronomy 33:2, Hebrews 12:22, and Jude 14. They are angels!

Come on, this has nothing to do with the subject. The text is about God punishing those that gave the believers trouble and it is a specific reference to what he will do at the 2nd coming. At no point does this verse indicate that we believers will be on earth to see it happen. If you believe that then again you must reconcile the verse with Revelation 19 stating that the bride is ready and in heaven before Jesus ever comes to earth.

I guess you missed this bit?

when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God,

As can clearly be seen by the context the verse is talking about the unbelievers and their unpreparedness when faced with sudden destruction. The reference to the Great Flood makes it absolutely crystal clear that the meaning here is a reference to the unbeliever and not the believer (who happened to be in the Ark). Yes destruction will come upon them like a thief in the night. With great surprise...

This is speaking of the Second Coming of Christ when the heavens and the earth shall flee away.

Ah a clear reference to Israel if I ever saw one... I would suggest comparing English translations... the word saints is not in the text! the term is "Gods people" or "Holy people". See: ἅγιος. Also I'm sure you must be aware of this since you actually quoted the verse. This is a reference to the Holy people who live in the Millennial reign of Christ. As I am sure you must know, the church is not part of that little affair. We are not human in the strictest sense anymore at this time, we are already immortal and reigning with Christ.

Once again, can flesh and blood inherit the kingdom of God? This passage is speaking of the second coming of Christ where heaven and earth shall be destroyed, every one will be resurrection unto life or destruction.

Again as I'm sure you must know, this can only be a reference to the Millennium again. Come on it actually says as much in each of the references you put up. ...the harvest is the end of the world ... So shall it be at the end of the world. Clear references to the Millennium if I ever saw any. The Millennium is the End of the Age, the End times of the world, before the final Judgment on the white throne, which believers do NOT partake of. This is basic christian doctrine.

Again, we have a scene from the White throne Judgment, which is at the end of the Millennium, do you really think this is somehow talking of the church already glorified?

I want you to think carefully about something. If we are saved and do indeed come with Christ at his 2nd coming as is clearly stated in Revelation 19 then who inherits the earth? We do in a way, but we are no longer human in the strictest sense, we have glorified bodies that will never die. We have overcome death, we rule with Christ, so who will actually inherit the world at the inception of the Millennium?

Do you know there are 31,103 verses in the bible, Jor-El and there is only six verses that speak of a millennium kingdom in the whole bible. Because the millennium kingdom is not literally on earth but in heaven.

We were resurrected from the dead upon our conversion to Christ and have been transferred to His kingdom while we are YET still living in this world. Colossians 1:13.

And yet it is clear from scripture that those who are dead in Christ rise and get new glorified bodies either at the moment of the rapture as I believe, or at the moment of Christ's 2nd coming as you believe, but the unbelievers are judged at a different time altogether. At the end of the Millennium, at the White throne Judgment. So while the verse speaks of both, the timing for each is completely different.

Christ must reign until His final enemy is put under His feet. Christ has been reiging since Pentecost. What is that final enemy Jor-El?

Because you see, Christ is reigning right now in heaven!

So are we raised up on the Last day or do we accompany Christ as his bride when he returns? Either way you will have a problem unless you accept that this is speaking of choices to be made rather than actual chronological events, unless scripture contradicts itself...

The church became the Bride of Christ with the complete destruction of the Old Covenant, the marriage supper occurred in 70 AD and is not going to occur at a future date!

Is that what revelation says, that it is all in one day? If not then you must decide if the term "Last Day" means what it means or if it is a reference to something else. Something like the "End of times", "End of the Age". Or we can simply reject most books of the New testament as being contradictory and proceed with only accepting the Gospels as the Word Of God...

The last day means... the LAST DAY. The Second Coming of Christ is the LAST DAY!

I'll answer the rest of the post tomorrow.

[buckskin scout]

I think I should make a separate thread on Revelation 19 alone. Maybe I will.

Anyways, the Marriage Supper has already occurred and it occurred in 70 AD.

It happened with the final judgment and final divorcement of national Israel by God, this is the final divorcement of Israel.

God is never going to remarry Israel ever again. At least, not ethnic national Israel.

God's new Bride ... is the church. And God is never going to divorce His church.

This was the eternal purpose of God before the foundations of the Earth, read Ephesians 3:8-11, 21, if you don't believe me.

Remove yourselves from the heretical teachings of John Nelson Darby, Cyrus I Scofield, and Christian Zionism.

Here I will demonstrate that the Marriage Supper occurred in 70 AD, read these following passages and pray over them,

DEUTERONOMY 28:26,49

EZEKIEL 39:17-20

MATTHEW 24:28

REVELATION 19:17-18

Edited April 13, 2014 by GoSC

[Jor-el]

Let's be honest here, you have effectively ignored Revelation so why not just say that you don't accept it as it is. You need to manipulate the entire book to say what it doesn't say to get your message across, I don't accept it and I'll leave others to tell you what they think of your position.

Revelation is a chronological account of events as they will happen in the world in the future, not in 70 AD.

Christian beliefs stem from the same basic background as Judaism, it is NOT a religion unto itself with its own foundations, its foundations are essentially Jewish in outlook. Ignoring the Millennium, something that even the Jews get, is beyond belief. Ignoring the events as they are written to expound fascinating metaphors in their place is a fundamental error of interpretation of a given text.

Revelation was written in the late 80's to early 90's of the 1st century, almost 20 years after your event of 70 AD. So instead of prophecy for the future it is supposedly a retrospective of events almost 2 decades old...

Where is Jesus and where is the millennium , for that matter where is the great throne judgement, where are the new heavens and the New earth?

Where are the events it explicitly describes?

Where is the antichrist and the world worshipping him as a god, where is the temple that gets desecrated by the antichrist... the list is almost endless to be almost surreal... good luck with your position...

[buckskin scout]

Let's be honest here, you have effectively ignored Revelation so why not just say that you don't accept it as it is. You need to manipulate the entire book to say what it doesn't say to get your message across, I don't accept it and I'll leave others to tell you what they think of your position.

Revelation is a chronological account of events as they will happen in the world in the future, not in 70 AD.

Christian beliefs stem from the same basic background as Judaism, it is NOT a religion unto itself with its own foundations, its foundations are essentially Jewish in outlook. Ignoring the Millennium, something that even the Jews get, is beyond belief. Ignoring the events as they are written to expound fascinating metaphors in their place is a fundamental error of interpretation of a given text.

Revelation was written in the late 80's to early 90's of the 1st century, almost 20 years after your event of 70 AD. So instead of prophecy for the future it is supposedly a retrospective of events almost 2 decades old...

Where is Jesus and where is the millennium , for that matter where is the great throne judgement, where are the new heavens and the New earth?

Where are the events it explicitly describes?

Where is the antichrist and the world worshipping him as a god, where is the temple that gets desecrated by the antichrist... the list is almost endless to be almost surreal... good luck with your position...

The only parts of Revelation that are future prophecies are Revelation 20:7 through to 22:21. The rest of Revelation is preterist. It already happened. The whole book of Revelation is a prophecy written before AD 70, concerning Christian persecution by the Romans and by the Jews during the reign of Nero and Vespasian. The 7 year tribulation aka Jacob's Trouble is the first Jewish-Roman war, AD 66-73AD, which btw, at the 3.5 years in the midst of this war (the 70th Week of Daniel), the temple was destroyed and all of Jerusalem with it. The only futurism in the book of Revelation is 20:7 through to 22:21.

Jesus bound Satan with the Gospel. The gates of hell can not prevail against the Church. The true church. But we see plenty of evidence of Satan prevailing with false doctrines, false teachers, and false churches. But he has been bound by Christ not only during Jesus' earthly ministry but also by the cross.

[Jor-el]

The only parts of Revelation that are future prophecies are Revelation 20:7 through to 22:21. The rest of Revelation is preterist. It already happened. The whole book of Revelation is a prophecy written before AD 70, concerning Christian persecution by the Romans and by the Jews during the reign of Nero and Vespasian. The 7 year tribulation aka Jacob's Trouble is the first Jewish-Roman war, AD 66-73AD, which btw, at the 3.5 years in the midst of this war (the 70th Week of Daniel), the temple was destroyed and all of Jerusalem with it. The only futurism in the book of Revelation is 20:7 through to 22:21.

Jesus bound Satan with the Gospel. The gates of hell can not prevail against the Church. The true church. But we see plenty of evidence of Satan prevailing with false doctrines, false teachers, and false churches. But he has been bound by Christ not only during Jesus' earthly ministry but also by the cross.

If that is as you say it missed the whole church by because even the Apostolic Fathers, the earliest of Christians saw revelation as a yet future event...

The Didache was used as a church manual, most date it written at the latest about 100 A.D.. It says it is still future.

‘Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. …. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. … And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.”

Didache, XVI

Sorry, you do not convince me, imagine that, all of Revelation is fulfilled in 70 A.D. and not even the Church of the time notices it... how strange...

[buckskin scout]

If that is as you say it missed the whole church by because even the Apostolic Fathers, the earliest of Christians saw revelation as a yet future event...

The Didache was used as a church manual, most date it written at the latest about 100 A.D.. It says it is still future.

‘Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. …. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. … And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.”

Didache, XVI

Sorry, you do not convince me, imagine that, all of Revelation is fulfilled in 70 A.D. and not even the Church of the time notices it... how strange...

You did not hear a single thing I said in my last post.

Revelation 1:1-20:6 is preterist in nature.

Revelation 20:7-22:21 is futurist in nature.

Millennial 1,000 years is taken far too literally by you, I believe Revelation 20:4 is a scene in Heaven not on earth.

Satan is never bound for a 1,000 years in a literally sense, he is bound by the Gospel and work on Calvary. He is an already defeated enemy yet he still stalks about seeking to deceive even the very elect. And he can succeed as evidenced by all the cults and false doctrines abounding these days, like the Rapture, Dispensationalism, Word Of Faith, Mormonism, JWs, etc, etc.

Those 1,000 years symbolize the period between 70 AD til the Second Coming Of Christ. Nothing more, nothing else. Please remember, they are SOULS in Revelation 20:4, they have not been bodily resurrected yet, these are the saints that died during the 1st Century persecutions. They are the martyrs and they are living with Christ in HEAVEN until Christ returns, and resurrects all the dead and the living receive their glorified bodies in a twinkling of an eye.

The 1,000 years simply separates the Preterist prophecies in Revelation from the futurist Prophecies in Revelation.

You keep labelling me a full preterist when in fact I am a partial preterist amillennialist.

I hope I cleared up the confusion as evidenced with your responses and your insistance that I am full preterist.

[Jor-el]

You did not hear a single thing I said in my last post.

Revelation 1:1-20:6 is preterist in nature.

Revelation 20:7-22:21 is futurist in nature.

Millennial 1,000 years is taken far too literally by you, I believe Revelation 20:4 is a scene in Heaven not on earth.

Satan is never bound for a 1,000 years in a literally sense, he is bound by the Gospel and work on Calvary. He is an already defeated enemy yet he still stalks about seeking to deceive even the very elect. And he can succeed as evidenced by all the cults and false doctrines abounding these days, like the Rapture, Dispensationalism, Word Of Faith, Mormonism, JWs, etc, etc.

Those 1,000 years symbolize the period between 70 AD til the Second Coming Of Christ. Nothing more, nothing else. Please remember, they are SOULS in Revelation 20:4, they have not been bodily resurrected yet, these are the saints that died during the 1st Century persecutions. They are the martyrs and they are living with Christ in HEAVEN until Christ returns, and resurrects all the dead and the living receive their glorified bodies in a twinkling of an eye.

The 1,000 years simply separates the Preterist prophecies in Revelation from the futurist Prophecies in Revelation.

You keep labelling me a full preterist when in fact I am a partial preterist amillennialist.

I hope I cleared up the confusion as evidenced with your responses and your insistance that I am full preterist.

Bro, I read and believe exactly what I read, if it says the scene is in heaven then that is where it is... outside of time and space. If the scene reflects events on earth then that is exactly what they are, and those events have simply not happened yet. whether you are a partial or a full preterist is indifferent to me. If the bible states that there will be 1000 years of rule by the returned Christ, the that is exactly what will happen.... you can choose to believe whatever you want, I read the bible and don't see your interpretation reflected there. sorry.

The bible says that during the Millennium, Christ will rule from Jerusalem and every nation will bow before him... funny how I have yet to see that happen.

[Bluefinger]

So at a future date you believe the all the land of Israel with flow with blood up to the height of 5-6 feet in blood?

That the four horseman will literally ride across the globe?

I think it is an idiom. You can find something similar in Enoch I.

“1. And in those days in one place the fathers together with their sons shall be smitten

And brothers one with another shall fall in death

Till the streams flow with their blood.

2 .For a man shall not withhold his hand from slaying his sons and his sons' sons,

And the sinner shall not withhold his hand from his honoured brother:

From dawn till sunset they shall slay one another.

3. And the horse shall walk up to the breast in the blood of sinners,

And the chariot shall be submerged to its height.”

Excerpt From: Charles, R.H. “The Book of Enoch.” iBooks.

This material may be protected by copyright.

Check out this book on the iBooks Store: https://itunes.apple.com/WebObjects/MZStore.woa/wa/viewBook?id=546610226

There is a strong case that the author of Revelation may have even quoted the book of Enoch.

So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia. (Revelation 14:19, 20 ESV)

Edited April 15, 2014 by Bluefinger

[+Paranoid Android]

For what it's worth, I'm of a view similar to GoSC. The thousand year millennium rule of Christ and the chaining of the beast began when Jesus conquered death and the consequence of sin by resurrecting from the dead. I'm also an amillennialist, which talks a more figurative approach to events than the pre or post millennialist view.

[Marcus Aurelius]

This is another interesting discussion on Revelation and the interpretation of prophecy. If you will indulge me, I think I will step into the water a bit here; but I'm going to stick to the shallow end of the pool. As I've said on here already, I'm no prophecy expert. When I first became a Christian I was a dispensationalist. I read several "prophecy" books. Then I read counter views and my views became more or less what GoSC said, a "partial preterist amillennialist." I couldn't have said it better myself. One of my favorite theologians, George Eldon Ladd wrote that the Kingdom is both present and eschatological, thus we live in what he calls "the tension between the now and the not yet." But I read those "prophecy" books over ten years ago, so obviously I am not as 'well versed' as all of you on it. That said, I wanted to highlight a few points of this discussion:

Let's be honest here, you have effectively ignored Revelation so why not just say that you don't accept it as it is. You need to manipulate the entire book to say what it doesn't say to get your message across, I don't accept it and I'll leave others to tell you what they think of your position.

Brother Jor-el, I could argue that you have done the same thing. Revelation, to my mind, does not explicitly (or even implicitly) teach the Rapture as a theological doctrine and yet dispensationalists always find a way to wiggle it in there. I would argue that dispensationalists also manipulate Revelation and several other Bible passages to fit their own wild views. How is it any different? I see this as just one interpretation positioned against another. Don't you think John Nelson Darby, Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee and Joel Richardson manipulate scriptures? These are the people in your "camp". And why do they manipulate them? I would argue it is to play off people's hopes and fears, to attract followers, and sell a lot of books.

The Didache was used as a church manual, most date it written at the latest about 100 A.D.. It says it is still future.

If I may speak plainly, brother, I don't know if this is your best source to appeal to. The Didache speaks of the Second Coming. Indeed, the earliest Christian writers spoke of the Second Coming; Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Augustine....they all spoke of the Second Coming. NOT a pre-tribulation rapture. Thus, to my mind, appealing to church tradition and the Fathers actually works against you. Yes, it is future, but NOT the future you describe. If we take tradition into account; dispensationalism is effectively refuted on those grounds alone (as it should be). There is not one Church Father who ever wrote of anything even remotely like the rapture. This is actually the MAIN reason why I cannot accept dispensationalism; perhaps it is my Catholic leanings or the Anglican inside of me, but I believe in Sacred Tradition and the Rapture is wholly absent from Tradition.

It wasn't until 1827 that dispensationalism first came onto the scene. To me, that just wreaks of Christian heresy. If you go back even to the great Reformation theologians; Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Wesley.....all believed in a second coming at the eschatological end of human history, NOT a pre-tribulation rapture, or rapture of ANY kind for that matter. So I have to counter here and say that dispensationalists are the ones ignoring church history and tradition and 'manipulating' the scriptures. There's just no evidence for your case prior to 1827.

Now to pivot, I'd like to level two separate criticisms at dispensationalism in general. First, do you not think that this view is, well, barbaric? So this big wrath and suffering is going to come, but Jesus is going to cash in my get out of jail free card and whisk me out of it just in the nick of time so that we can all eat popcorn in heaven and watch as countless numbers of people are slaughtered and drowning in 5-6 feet of blood? I think it's interesting to note that Christians who supposedly preach and profess non-violence and 'loving your enemies' since the days of the Roman Coliseum are now going to have front row seats to the bloodiest cataclysm in human history. I said on another thread, if this were true, I would want no part of it. I would rather be "left behind." Seeing human suffering on ANY scale makes me as a Christian want to do something about it; how much more so if the entire world is suffering? I would want to 'remain' and help any way I could. I don't know how all of this would sit on your consciences, but I couldn't just sit there and watch all of this happening as some detached observer complete with a large fountain drink and a tub of popcorn. I don't need a pet service for my cats after the rapture; I would plan on being here.

Finally, I wonder if those in our own house are spreading lies and deception. The first of the four Blood Moons was last night. Should I be worried??? I mean REALLY; what have we become??? Now we are looking up at the heavens for signs??? Don't the scriptures explicitly forbid such things??? I find this latest prophecy fad utterly shocking. It's astrology now; really??? It seems people are looking for all manner of signs, watching the news and apparently hoping that each new headline is evidence of the end times. When I hear people discussing 'prophecy' they talk about end time events and the slaughter of untold millions as though it's no big deal. Then they set one date after another, seemingly never learning their lesson that date-setting and speculation is unbiblical and heretical. Is this not a sad state of affairs, that we would follow any fool who writes a book and proclaims himself an 'expert'? Do we hate the world that badly? Are we that desperate to flee from it? Isn't there something more worthwhile that we could be doing with our time on earth?

I think one of the great theological fallacies of dispensationalism is that it tends to look at the Kingdom as being purely eschatological. The Jews didn't recognize that the Kingdom was at hand when Jesus was in their midst; do WE? I think it's foolish to sit around and speculate about the end times because the Kingdom is a present reality with us NOW and we have been in the 'end times' ever since Jesus Christ ascended into heaven. The only way we will bring about the eschatological aspect of the Kingdom is by doing the work of the Kingdom in the here and now. We have been given a charge. We are ambassadors of the Kingdom. That is the ONLY thing we should be focused on; not prophecy, not signs.

If you ask me, there is only ONE definitive sign of the end times, and it is this: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14)

Edited April 16, 2014 by Marcus Aurelius

[buckskin scout]

Bro, I read and believe exactly what I read, if it says the scene is in heaven then that is where it is... outside of time and space. If the scene reflects events on earth then that is exactly what they are, and those events have simply not happened yet. whether you are a partial or a full preterist is indifferent to me. If the bible states that there will be 1000 years of rule by the returned Christ, the that is exactly what will happen.... you can choose to believe whatever you want, I read the bible and don't see your interpretation reflected there. sorry.

The bible says that during the Millennium, Christ will rule from Jerusalem and every nation will bow before him... funny how I have yet to see that happen.

Oh-kay, however, where in Revelation 20:1-6, does it state in this passage these six facts that would confirm your eschatological views?

1. The Second Coming Of Christ

2. The Bodily Resurrection (verse 4 refers to disembodied souls, see Ecclesiastes 12:7, Luke 8:55, 2 Corinthians 5:8)

See the rendering in the King James Version:

Revelation 20:4

King James Version (KJV)

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

3. A Reign On Earth

4. A Literal Throne Of David

5. Jerusalem In The Land Of Palestine

6. Christ On Earth

These six important facts are never mentioned in Rev. 20:1-6, because a literal rendering of the 1,000 years is incorrect. But the main message behind this passage is not the 1,000 years but the overthrow of Satan.

That 1,000 years represent the unestimated symbolic time between AD 70 (with the Judgment of Jerusalem aka the Babylonian Whore) through to the Second Coming Of Christ which begins in verse 7 of Revelation 20.

The Marriage Supper in chapter 19 of Revelation, is God's eternal divorcement of faithless Israel and its judgment in AD 70, in order to marry the Bride Of Christ, which is God's true eternal purpose before the foundations of the Earth were set.

Israel was never God's eternal agenda but the Church is. God is not an adulterer, He wont have two wives at one time. But THE FIRST was divorced (and judged -- faithless Israel) in order for Him to marry another (the Church).

Dispensationalism and Christian Zionism flat out states God is an adulterer and His eternal purpose is to have two wives. The Church and national Israel.

That miserable patch of real estate in Palestine was nothing but a shadow of the Kingdom Of God, when Christ creates a New Heavens... a New Earth... and a New Jerusalem. It is there that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc will receive their inheritance. '

See these patriarchs never received their inheritance, they never owned Palestine in their lifetimes, they weren't strong enough to own up Palestine from Egypt (where lies the Nile) to Syria (where lies the Euphrates). They were only 70 souls strong when they went down to Egypt (Deut. 10:22). Can 70 souls ever claim ownership to the 184-200 miles worth of land, full of mightier and stronger Canaanites tribes? No, of course not. The partriarchs were sojourners and wanderers in the land.

But the Bible in Hebrews, states that the partriarchs knew this and were looking for that city not built by human hands (that is to say historic Jerusalem) but a New Jerusalem built by God at His Second Coming.

Edited April 16, 2014 by GoSC

[Jor-el]

This is another interesting discussion on Revelation and the interpretation of prophecy. If you will indulge me, I think I will step into the water a bit here; but I'm going to stick to the shallow end of the pool. As I've said on here already, I'm no prophecy expert. When I first became a Christian I was a dispensationalist. I read several "prophecy" books. Then I read counter views and my views became more or less what GoSC said, a "partial preterist amillennialist." I couldn't have said it better myself. One of my favorite theologians, George Eldon Ladd wrote that the Kingdom is both present and eschatological, thus we live in what he calls "the tension between the now and the not yet." But I read those "prophecy" books over ten years ago, so obviously I am not as 'well versed' as all of you on it. That said, I wanted to highlight a few points of this discussion:

I am no expert in eschatological scripture either, I studied it in depth over 20 years ago and I have yet to see a proper refutation of the Pre-millenialist viewpoint without including a lot of misinterpretation on what verses say or don't say. For me scripture as a whole hangs together like a gigantic jigsaw puzzle, and if even one piece doesn't fit, it is problematic not only for that piece of scripture but also for scripture as a whole. The study of the End times is by necessity dependent on a number of foundations that hold Christianity as a religion together. Foundations that existed even before Christianity ever existed and were in fact central to Jewish Theology and their own eschatology of scripture, which was incorporated into Christianity when it became an independent belief system.

Anyone who has studied Judaism (and that is what I have concentrated on over the years more than any other aspect of Biblical research) will recognize certain parallels that are NOT coincidental between 2nd Temple Judaism and modern day Christian eschatology.

Judaism had its own fundamental beliefs and these beliefs are reflected in their writings even if not directly reflected in scripture itself. One such belief is that when the Messiah comes he will herald the Messianic Age. They believe that the Messiah will :

1. Be a descendant of King David.

2. Gain sovereignty over the land of Israel.

3. He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles.

4. Gather the Jews there from the four corners of the earth.

5. Restore them to full observance of Torah law.

6. And, as a grand finale, bring peace to the whole world.

The world after the Messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish God as the only true God, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

Any Jewish site on Judaism will provide anyone with reams of information on these expectations and prophecies regarding the Messiah... now what do all these things have in common with Christianity?

Guess what they are speaking of.... the Millennium. It's all there in detail. How is it possible that Christians do not see this?

Brother Jor-el, I could argue that you have done the same thing. Revelation, to my mind, does not explicitly (or even implicitly) teach the Rapture as a theological doctrine and yet dispensationalists always find a way to wiggle it in there. I would argue that dispensationalists also manipulate Revelation and several other Bible passages to fit their own wild views. How is it any different? I see this as just one interpretation positioned against another. Don't you think John Nelson Darby, Tim Lahaye, Hal Lindsey, John Hagee and Joel Richardson manipulate scriptures? These are the people in your "camp". And why do they manipulate them? I would argue it is to play off people's hopes and fears, to attract followers, and sell a lot of books.

Interestingly, I have NEVER read any of those authors books on eschatology... or preachers or whatever they are. I have heard of Lahaye because of one of his books called the "The Act of Marriage" which I read when I converted to Christianity and it gave me a traumatic experience that took years to get over.

My views if I may call them that are not based on these peoples books but on personal study regarding these matters. I researched all the different positions held by Christianity (at least the majority held views) on this subject and then made my own decision on what best held the jigsaw puzzle together.

If I may speak plainly, brother, I don't know if this is your best source to appeal to. The Didache speaks of the Second Coming. Indeed, the earliest Christian writers spoke of the Second Coming; Justin Martyr, Tertullian, Irenaeus, Ignatius, Augustine....they all spoke of the Second Coming. NOT a pre-tribulation rapture. Thus, to my mind, appealing to church tradition and the Fathers actually works against you. Yes, it is future, but NOT the future you describe. If we take tradition into account; dispensationalism is effectively refuted on those grounds alone (as it should be). There is not one Church Father who ever wrote of anything even remotely like the rapture. This is actually the MAIN reason why I cannot accept dispensationalism; perhaps it is my Catholic leanings or the Anglican inside of me, but I believe in Sacred Tradition and the Rapture is wholly absent from Tradition.

The Didache is in fact a very good source, because rather than anything else it completely dispels the Preterist viewpoint entirely. Let me put it up for review:

‘Watch for your life's sake. Let not your lamps be quenched, nor your loins unloosed; but be ye ready, for ye know not the hour in which our Lord cometh. …. For in the last days false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning. … And then shall appear the signs of the truth; first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.”

Didache, XVI

For in the last days.... doesn't that mean that the last days have not yet arrived at the late date of 100 C.E. when the Didache was written?

and then shall appear the world-deceiver... That means that he has not appeared on stage yet. Who exactly is the world-deceiver? Well his other name is "antichrist". There is no other "world deceiver" within Christianity! Now according to Preterist belief that man had already come! He is equated with either Nero or Vespasian and Even Titus who actually destroyed Jerusalem in 70 C.E. Yet when we look at the Apostolic Fathers where exactly do we see this ever mentioned?

Now someone comes up with the brilliant idea that it all happened in or around 70 C.E and the church never noticed at all? Seriously, are we expected to believe that these events all happened and the church in its most powerful and formative years never noticed?

Preterists argue that Revelation must have been written before 70 C.E and they are the only ones saying this. Most scholars agree and accept that it was written in the late 80's or early 90's. Can you name any Preterists from the Apostolic age of the Church at all?

It wasn't until 1827 that dispensationalism first came onto the scene. To me, that just wreaks of Christian heresy. If you go back even to the great Reformation theologians; Calvin, Luther, Zwingli, Wesley.....all believed in a second coming at the eschatological end of human history, NOT a pre-tribulation rapture, or rapture of ANY kind for that matter. So I have to counter here and say that dispensationalists are the ones ignoring church history and tradition and 'manipulating' the scriptures. There's just no evidence for your case prior to 1827.

And it wasn't until the 17th Century that Preterism came about by a Jesuit called Luis de Alcasar. as a counter to Protestant views. As for there being no case for the position on the Rapture, see the following:

The Shepherd of Hermas (110 A.D.)

Shepherd of Hermas, written in A.D. 88 to 97 and published in A.D. 110

The writer, after escaping a huge terrifying beast with four colors on its head (white, red, black and gold), met a virgin in his vision. "like a bride going froth from a bride-chamber, all in white...I recognized from the former visions that it was the church." the virgin explained that she escaped destruction from the beast (the Great Tribulation) because of God's special deliverance. "Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast hast not doubted. Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless." After explaining to him that "the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world," the virgin concluded her messages with, "Now ye know the symbol of the great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing."

(Escaping the Great Tribulation is what the Rapture is all about)

Victorinus (240 A.D.)

Commentary on the Apocalypse 6.14 - "'And the heaven withdrew as a scroll that is rolled up.' For the heaven to be rolled way, that is, that the Church shall be taken away. "And the mountain and the islands were moved from their places." Mountains and islands removed from their places intimate that in the last persecution all men departed from their places; that is, that the good will be removed, seeking to avoid the persecution."

Commentary on the Apocalypse 15.1 - "And I saw another great and wonderful sign, seven angels having the seven last plagues; for in them is completed the indignation of God.' For the wrath of God always strikes the obstinate people with seven plagues, that is, perfectly, as it is said in Leviticus; and these shall be in the last time, when the Church shall have gone out of the midst."

(The Rapture means the church is taken away)

Cyprian (250 A.D.)

Epistle 55 - The Antichrist is coming, but above him comes Christ also. The enemy goeth about and rageth, but immediately the Lord follows to avenge our suffering and our wounds. The adversary is enraged and threatens, but there is One who can deliver us from his hands." It is significant that he did not write about enduring the persecution of the Antichrist. Rather, Cyprian promised that Christ "is One who can deliver us from his hands."

Cyprian Speaking of the immanency of the Rapture, wrote, "Who would not crave to be changed and transformed into the likeness of Christ and to arrive more quickly to the dignity of heavenly glory." After telling his readers that the coming resurrection was the hope of the Christian, he points out that the rapture should motivate us as we see the last days approaching. Cyprian says that "we who see that terrible things have begun, and know that still more terrible things are imminent, may regard it as the greatest advantage to depart from it as quickly as possible." Referring to his hope of the approaching Rapture, he encouraged his readers as follows: "Do you not give God thanks, do you not congratulate yourself, that by an early departure you are taken away, and delivered from the shipwrecks and disasters that are imminent?" Cyprian concludes his comments on the translation of the saints with these words: "Let us greet the day which assigns each of us to his own home, which snatches us hence, and sets us free from the snares of the world, and restores us to paradise and the kingdom"

Treatises of Cyprian - 21 to 26

Ephraim the Syrian (376 A.D.)

In the 4th Century, Ephraim the Syrian wrote a small work titled, Antichrist and the End of the World. This and other works were published in A.D. 376. His works remained relatively obscure in their own languages (he was fluent in several languages) through the centuries. Only recently were they translated into English.

We ought to understand thoroughly, there my brothers, what is imminent or overhanging. Already, there have been hungers and plagues, violent movements of nations and sins, which have been predicted by the Lord. Prepare ourselves for the meeting of the Lord so that He may draw us from confusion which overwhelms the world. Believe me, dearest brothers, the coming of the Lord is nigh. Believe me because the end of the world is at hand.

Because all saints and the elect of the Lord are gathered together before the Tribulation which is about to come, and are taken to the Lord in order that they may not see at anytime the confusion that overwhelms the world because of our sins. And so, brothers most dear to me, it is the eleventh hour and the end of this world comes to the harvest and [to the] angels’ hands awaiting the empire of the kingdom of our Lord.

When, therefore, the end of the world comes, that abominable, lying and murderous one who is born from the tribe of Dan [comes] . . . conceived from the seed of man and from a most vile [woman] mixed with an evil or worthless spirit.

Therefore, when he receives the kingdom, he orders the Temple of God to be rebuilt for himself, which is in Jerusalem; who, after coming into it, shall sit as God in order that he may be adored by all nations.

Then all people from everywhere shall flock together by him, and the holy city shall be trampled on by the nations for 42 months. [This is] just as the holy apostle says in the Apocalypse, which becomes three and a half years—1,260 days.

Then, when the three and a half years have been completed, the time of Antichrist through whom [satan] will have seduced the whole world, after the resurrection of the two prophets, in the hour which the world does not know and on the day which the enemy or son of perdition does not know, will come the sign of the Son of Man. And coming forward, the Lord shall appear with great power and much majesty with the sign of the word of salvation going before Him.

The references to being taken away before seeing Tribulation is what the Rapture is all about. The words may be different the idea is exactly the same. So forget that useless, fictitious and conventional argument that the Rapture was something invented in the 19th century.

Now to pivot, I'd like to level two separate criticisms at dispensationalism in general. First, do you not think that this view is, well, barbaric? So this big wrath and suffering is going to come, but Jesus is going to cash in my get out of jail free card and whisk me out of it just in the nick of time so that we can all eat popcorn in heaven and watch as countless numbers of people are slaughtered and drowning in 5-6 feet of blood? I think it's interesting to note that Christians who supposedly preach and profess non-violence and 'loving your enemies' since the days of the Roman Coliseum are now going to have front row seats to the bloodiest cataclysm in human history. I said on another thread, if this were true, I would want no part of it. I would rather be "left behind." Seeing human suffering on ANY scale makes me as a Christian want to do something about it; how much more so if the entire world is suffering? I would want to 'remain' and help any way I could. I don't know how all of this would sit on your consciences, but I couldn't just sit there and watch all of this happening as some detached observer complete with a large fountain drink and a tub of popcorn. I don't need a pet service for my cats after the rapture; I would plan on being here.

No, what I view as barbaric is the idea that Jesus would allow his bride to be destroyed out of hand by the man of lawlessness, because that my friend is the only other option available to whoever reads Revelation and sees what happens during those 7 years of living hell. Either the Church is removed in one way, or it is removed in another more violent way, but the church is removed completely and utterly. That is the only way that the church can be present in heaven and declared to be ready for her marriage to Jesus Christ. If you know of any other way feel free to share....

What it is NOT is a metaphor. These events in heaven are literal as they were meant to be read.

⁶ Then I heard what sounded like a great multitude, like the roar of rushing waters and like loud peals of thunder, shouting:

“Hallelujah!

For our Lord God Almighty reigns.

⁷ Let us rejoice and be glad

and give him glory!

For the wedding of the Lamb has come,

and his bride has made herself ready.

⁸ Fine linen, bright and clean,

was given her to wear.”

(Fine linen stands for the righteous acts of God’s holy people.)

⁹ Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”

¹⁰ At this I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, “Don’t do that! I am a fellow servant with you and with your brothers and sisters who hold to the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For it is the Spirit of prophecy who bears testimony to Jesus.”

How else did they all get there before Jesus 2nd coming as described in the events after this passage itself? I'm all ears for an explanation that is not all metaphor and dreamy excuses. As for your point 2, as can be seen by the events described in the passage, no-one is actually watching what is happening on earth anymore, they have better things to do it seems.

Finally, I wonder if those in our own house are spreading lies and deception. The first of the four Blood Moons was last night. Should I be worried??? I mean REALLY; what have we become??? Now we are looking up at the heavens for signs??? Don't the scriptures explicitly forbid such things??? I find this latest prophecy fad utterly shocking. It's astrology now; really??? It seems people are looking for all manner of signs, watching the news and apparently hoping that each new headline is evidence of the end times. When I hear people discussing 'prophecy' they talk about end time events and the slaughter of untold millions as though it's no big deal. Then they set one date after another, seemingly never learning their lesson that date-setting and speculation is unbiblical and heretical. Is this not a sad state of affairs, that we would follow any fool who writes a book and proclaims himself an 'expert'? Do we hate the world that badly? Are we that desperate to flee from it? Isn't there something more worthwhile that we could be doing with our time on earth?

Here I agree with you completely, it is all a load of BS that I find utterly revolting. People should trust in God. Yet the signs will be there and are in fact there for all to see as per the words of Jesus himself, but that doesn't mean we have to run after them. My take on what he said though is that those signs are not meant for the church but for his other people who he will use during the Great Tribulation but are not part of the church itself. Those people are Israel.

I think one of the great theological fallacies of dispensationalism is that it tends to look at the Kingdom as being purely eschatological. The Jews didn't recognize that the Kingdom was at hand when Jesus was in their midst; do WE? I think it's foolish to sit around and speculate about the end times because the Kingdom is a present reality with us NOW and we have been in the 'end times' ever since Jesus Christ ascended into heaven. The only way we will bring about the eschatological aspect of the Kingdom is by doing the work of the Kingdom in the here and now. We have been given a charge. We are ambassadors of the Kingdom. That is the ONLY thing we should be focused on; not prophecy, not signs.

True, many people do think of it purely in eschatological terms, but that is because they are referencing the Jewish perspective without knowing it consciously. They are looking for the Kingdom on Earth. Gods kingdom has both aspects to it, the spiritual kingdom which already exists and the physical kingdom which is to come and will only be established after he comes again from heaven. as he so rightly put it:

And then they will see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

If you ask me, there is only ONE definitive sign of the end times, and it is this: "And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come." (Matthew 24:14)

Now let me ask you, who exactly will actually proclaim his Gospel throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations?

Is it the Church or is it his Holy people, who have not been forgotten but who received his special mark setting them apart as a remnant once again?

Revelation 7:3-4

³ “Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God.” ⁴ Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.

For too long the church has consistently failed to realize that they are merely one branch of his promises and his promises are never broken.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Jor-el

[Jor-el]

Oh-kay, however, where in Revelation 20:1-6, does it state in this passage these six facts that would confirm your eschatological views?

1. The Second Coming Of Christ

2. The Bodily Resurrection (verse 4 refers to disembodied souls, see Ecclesiastes 12:7, Luke 8:55, 2 Corinthians 5:8)

See the rendering in the King James Version:

Revelation 20:4

King James Version (KJV)

⁴ And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The 2nd Coming of Christ is not in Revelation 20:1-6 It is immediately before that in Revelation 19:11-21. I mean it is absolutely clear, so clear that it is amazing that you haven't seemed to notice it. Notice how the Millennium is then brought up immediately after his 2nd coming in Revelation 19:11-21 as can be seen in Revelation 20:1-3.

Notice that the bodily resurrection of verse 4 that you quoted has nothing at all to do with the church at all. They are referencing the martyrs who turned to Christ during the Great Tribulation. Not one word is mentioned regarding those that came before the Great tribulation. This is uniquely directed at those believers who became believers and died for their beliefs during the Great Tribulation. They ARE NOT part of the Church, because Chapter 19 clearly demonstrates that the Church (the bride) is ready and at the time of verse 4 of Chapter 20, the marriage of the Lamb has already taken place.

Do not confuse the two! People are still saved after the Church is taken, they are not part of the Church though. That ship has came and gone. Verse 4 is a direct reference to these martyrs who are then brought back to life and given a glorified body, just as the church has already been given such a body. Yet they are NOT part of the church. They will reign with Christ as the Church will do in the Millennium but they are NOT part of the Bride.

People seem to think that you must be a part of the Church to be saved, that is untrue. The church is only one of the mechanisms identified in the bible that includes people that are saved. For example the Old Testament Patriarchs are not part of the Church as well, they belong to another grouping and there are a number of such groups. This is something that most Christians tend not to see. The church is a special category of people chosen by God for a special purpose, they are NOT the only category around.

3. A Reign On Earth

Seriously?

Isaiah

• Isaiah 2:1-4 — Isaiah says that "in the last days" the Messiah will reign from Mount Zion in Jerusalem and the entire world will experience peace.
  
• Isaiah 9:6-7 — The Messiah will rule from the throne of David, giving the world a government of peace, justice, and righteousness. (Note: The throne of David is not in Heaven. It is located in Jerusalem — see Psalm 122. Jesus is not now on the throne of David. He sits at the right hand of His Father on His Father's throne — see Revelation 3:21.)
  
• Isaiah 11:3b-9 — The Messiah will bring "righteousness and fairness" to the earth when He returns to "slay the wicked." At that time, the curse will be lifted and the plant and animal kingdoms will be restored to their original perfection.
  
• Isaiah 24:21-23 — When the Messiah returns, He will punish Satan and his demonic hordes in the heavens and then will punish "the kings of the earth, on earth." He will then "reign on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem" for the purpose of manifesting His glory.
  

Jeremiah

• Jeremiah 23:5 — "'Behold, the days are coming,' declares the Lord, 'when I shall raise up for David a righteous Branch; and He will reign as king and act wisely and do justice and righteousness in the land.'" (Note: The term, "Branch," is a Messianic title.)
  
• Jeremiah 33:6-18 — A day will come when the Lord will regather the dispersed of both Judah and Israel and will save a great remnant. At that time the Lord "will cause a rigthteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth."
  

Micah

• Micah 4:1-7 — Micah repeats in greater detail the prophecy contained in Isaiah 2. Like Isaiah, he says the Lord will make Jerusalem the capital of the world. The world will be flooded with peace and prosperity. All believing Jews will be regathered to Israel, and "the Lord will reign over them in Mount Zion."
  

4. A Literal Throne Of David

Luke 1:26-38 — When the archangel Gabriel appeared to Mary, he told her that she would bear a son named Jesus who would be called "the Son of the Most High." He then added three promises that are yet to be fulfilled: "the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David; and He will reign over the house of Jacob forever; and His kingdom will have no end."

Revelation 12:5

5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron;

Matthew 19:28

28 And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Need I go on? or do you think this is all metaphorical?

5. Jerusalem In The Land Of Palestine

And where else would Jerusalem be? Even when the New Jerusalem comes down from Heaven it will be within the context of a New Heaven and a new Earth. And I have no doubt that it will occupy the same place that Jerusalem now occupies within this present existence in the material world. The Messiah will RULE from Jerusalem.

Isaiah 2,2-4; 11,10; 42,1

6. Christ On Earth

These six important facts are never mentioned in Rev. 20:1-6, because a literal rendering of the 1,000 years is incorrect. But the main message behind this passage is not the 1,000 years but the overthrow of Satan.

That 1,000 years represent the unestimated symbolic time between AD 70 (with the Judgment of Jerusalem aka the Babylonian Whore) through to the Second Coming Of Christ which begins in verse 7 of Revelation 20.

The Marriage Supper in chapter 19 of Revelation, is God's eternal divorcement of faithless Israel and its judgment in AD 70, in order to marry the Bride Of Christ, which is God's true eternal purpose before the foundations of the Earth were set.

Israel was never God's eternal agenda but the Church is. God is not an adulterer, He wont have two wives at one time. But THE FIRST was divorced (and judged -- faithless Israel) in order for Him to marry another (the Church).

Dispensationalism and Christian Zionism flat out states God is an adulterer and His eternal purpose is to have two wives. The Church and national Israel.

That miserable patch of real estate in Palestine was nothing but a shadow of the Kingdom Of God, when Christ creates a New Heavens... a New Earth... and a New Jerusalem. It is there that Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, etc will receive their inheritance. '

See these patriarchs never received their inheritance, they never owned Palestine in their lifetimes, they weren't strong enough to own up Palestine from Egypt (where lies the Nile) to Syria (where lies the Euphrates). They were only 70 souls strong when they went down to Egypt (Deut. 10:22). Can 70 souls ever claim ownership to the 184-200 miles worth of land, full of mightier and stronger Canaanites tribes? No, of course not. The partriarchs were sojourners and wanderers in the land.

But the Bible in Hebrews, states that the partriarchs knew this and were looking for that city not built by human hands (that is to say historic Jerusalem) but a New Jerusalem built by God at His Second Coming.

What I see here is a fundamental misunderstanding of the role of the Church and the role of Israel, the church is the Bride of Christ, nowhere have I stated or does the bible state that Israel will be Christ's bride... their role is as a dedicated priesthood nothing more. They lost the chance to be the Bride of Christ and that bride is now the Church, individual Jews may become part of the bride if they believe in Christ but Israel as a whole has been excluded from that role. Salvation does not come through the church, it comes through Christ, and as the churches role ends, so will the role of Israel begin again... its stuff like this that convinces me that you are not seeing things in their correct perspective.

Salvation belongs to all people who believe in Christ. The periods in which they do so determines where they will serve. Before the church there was Israel and the patriarchs, they are Not part of the church either and the church age will also end. When it does and its role is over, the bible is quite clear who takes on the mantle again.

The great multitude of Revelation Chapter 7 are the direct result of the activities of the 144000 Jews sealed by God, and they are all saved, but they are not members of the church, they are the tribulation saints mentioned in Revelation 20:4.

Israel will indeed become a kingdom of Priests as they were meant to become. God does not fault on his promises. No matter what you might say to the contrary with your views.

Edited April 16, 2014 by Jor-el

[buckskin scout]

I am posting from a local library and have but 30 minutes left, but will answer more thoroughly tomorrow.

For comparative purposes read Isaiah chapter 19 and Revelation chapter 19. God visited Judea in 70 AD and pronounced His judgment upon the faithless Babylonian Whore, which is the marriage supper, a supper to what marriage?

The marriage to the church. Out with the Old Covenant and faithless Israel, in with the New Covenant and faithful church!

Also, what do you gain from Isaiah 34:4, or this pronouncement against Edom which has already been fulfilled, is it literal or symbolic?

Here is the passage:

Isaiah 34:4

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I am no expert in eschatological scripture either, I studied it in depth over 20 years ago and I have yet to see a proper refutation of the Pre-millenialist viewpoint without including a lot of misinterpretation on what verses say or don't say.

Well, brother Jor-el, thank you for that wonderful post. Even though I may disagree with some of your conclusions, I really enjoyed reading that and I would have to say you DO know a lot about this, at least from my perspective. When I read most of those dispensationalist authors in the past, it seemed to always be written from rather arrogant assumption that it is true; so it's refreshing to read an articulated defense of the view. I must say it's one of the few times I think I ever have.

I will TRY to look at some of the things you said and offer my perspective; but if this were a debate and we each had a podium (lol) you would almost certainly 'win' because as I said, I haven't paid a whole lot of attention to this subject. You've clearly done more research than I have, and like I said, that's commendable; I've rarely seen such articulated defenses of your 'camp's' view on eschatology.

The study of the End times is by necessity dependent on a number of foundations that hold Christianity as a religion together. Foundations that existed even before Christianity ever existed and were in fact central to Jewish Theology and their own eschatology of scripture, which was incorporated into Christianity when it became an independent belief system.

I would agree with that, but only to a certain extent. Much of the Jewish eschaton is intertestamental literature, and I don't know how much we should really be borrowing from things like the Psuedepigrapha. I've got to think that much of their eschaton developed as a result of their oppression; that eschatology was their one sense of hope and subsequently it provided hope to the suffering people. They were in the gutter dreaming of stars. I think that's also why they missed the Messiah when He DID come; because they wanted someone to throw off the shackles of their oppression. So if you ask me, in a sense, their understanding of eschatology has always been wrong.

1. Be a descendant of King David.

2. Gain sovereignty over the land of Israel.

3. He will establish a government in Israel that will be the center of all world government, both for Jews and gentiles.

4. Gather the Jews there from the four corners of the earth.

5. Restore them to full observance of Torah law.

6. And, as a grand finale, bring peace to the whole world.

I agree with you here, that points 2-6 are eschatological in scope. I could also see how one could argue that 4 has already happened with Israel becoming a state after the six day war. But I don't get the rapture out of any of that. I get the Second Coming. I guess that's my biggest 'problem' with all of this; I just don't believe in the rapture.

The world after the Messiah comes is often referred to in Jewish literature as Olam Ha-Ba (oh-LAHM hah-BAH), the World to Come. Olam Ha-Ba will be characterized by the peaceful co-existence of all people (Isaiah 2:4). Hatred, intolerance and war will cease to exist. In the Olam Ha-Ba, the whole world will recognize the Jewish God as the only true God, and the Jewish religion as the only true religion (Isaiah 2:3; 11:10; Micah 4:2-3; Zechariah 14:9). There will be no murder, robbery, competition or jealousy. There will be no sin (Zephaniah 3:13). Sacrifices will continue to be brought in the Temple, but these will be limited to thanksgiving offerings, because there will be no further need for expiatory offerings.

This was good, I appreciate the information here.

Guess what they are speaking of.... the Millennium. It's all there in detail. How is it possible that Christians do not see this?

I take it you mean the one thousand year reign of Christ at the Millennium? The problem I have with that is you talk about how there will be no 'sin' in this reign, and yet the Scriptures appear to contradict themselves here. Revelation also says that even during this reign people will still turn away and that Satan will be 'loosed' for a time. So there most certainly would be sin. In fact, there would also be death because according to that view, when we interpret those passages literally, the second death or judgment also has not yet occurred.

This is why I tend to agree with those who say that some of these passages have GOT to be symbolic. I think this '1,000 year reign' is just a figure of speech. I think there will be a world without sin and death, but it will be because there will be a new heavens and a new earth. I think THAT is literal. At the end of human history, God will 'reboot' the system to operate the way it was intended BEFORE the fall.

I have heard of Lahaye because of one of his books called the "The Act of Marriage" which I read when I converted to Christianity and it gave me a traumatic experience that took years to get over.

Sex after 60? Haha. I guess I could see how that might be 'traumatic'...that is until we HIT 60 and we are probably hoping for that lol.

For in the last days.... doesn't that mean that the last days have not yet arrived at the late date of 100 C.E. when the Didache was written?

As I said, old friend, I'm not a full preterist myself and I actually concede the point you are making in this portion. This is actually a good argument from tradition against full on preterism. If the Anti-Christ HAD been Nero or Vespasian, why didn't the Fathers recognize it as such? I personally can't answer that. Maybe someone who is more well read on that can.

However, even IF we concede the eschatological end of this; that a man of lawlessness will come etc.; it STILL does not provide evidence of dispensationalism or the rapture. In fact, your quote goes on to say: "first, the sign of an out-spreading in heaven; then the sign of the sound of the trumpet; and the third, the resurrection of the dead; yet not of all, but as it is said: The Lord shall come and all His saints with Him. Then shall the world see the Lord coming upon the clouds of heaven.” It says there will be the sound of a trumpet and the dead will be raised...this sounds to me like the Lord is ANNOUNCING His coming; not a 'secret' snatching away of believers. If there was going to be a 'secret' rapture, shouldn't that passage have appeared BEFORE "false prophets and corrupters shall be multiplied, and the sheep shall be turned into wolves, and love shall be turned into hate; for when lawlessness increaseth, they shall hate and persecute and betray one another, and then shall appear the world-deceiver as Son of God, and shall do signs and wonders, and the earth shall be delivered into his hands, and he shall do iniquitous things which have never yet come to pass since the beginning." This sounds to me like we will be here for all of that, not snatched away.

Now someone comes up with the brilliant idea that it all happened in or around 70 C.E and the church never noticed at all? Seriously, are we expected to believe that these events all happened and the church in its most powerful and formative years never noticed?

Preterists argue that Revelation must have been written before 70 C.E and they are the only ones saying this. Most scholars agree and accept that it was written in the late 80's or early 90's. Can you name any Preterists from the Apostolic age of the Church at all?

I really see what you are saying with all of this. You may be right here. But just a thought, and this is just my own speculation, not coming from any preterist authors or anything of the like: you say the Apostolic Age. Well, during the Apostolic Age, you and I both know the persecutions were still going on. They didn't even officially stop until you get all the way to Constantine and the Milvian Bridge. So of course they would have looked at it from a purely eschatological standpoint (from their pov), because they were right in the thick of it. I think it is entirely plausible they could have been referring to someone like Nero as their Anti-Christ. I think those writers were convinced that they themselves were in the end times. Is that so unlikely? And is it so unlikely only because they refer to him as Anti-Christ, and not say, Nero or Vespesian? My point is this: is it not possible that they themselves thought that THEY were living in the end times, or the tribulation period as it is called? They thought THEY WERE the generation that Jesus spoke of. Preterism, then, is a recognition of that fact. Thus, of course they wouldn't identify themselves as preterists because they saw themselves as living it out in the PRESENT MOMENT. We can only arrive at any kind of preterism with the perspective of history.

And it wasn't until the 17th Century that Preterism came about by a Jesuit called Luis de Alcasar. as a counter to Protestant views.

I'd like to read this Jesuit. I've never heard of him, so I appreciate the reference. But again, you wouldn't have any preterism in the Apostolic Age because it is entirely possible they thought they were living out the whole end time scenario.

the virgin explained that she escaped destruction from the beast (the Great Tribulation) because of God's special deliverance. "Thou hast escaped a great tribulation because thou hast believed and at the sight of such a huge beast hast not doubted. Go therefore and declare to the Elect of the Lord His mighty deeds and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation which is to come. If ye therefore prepare yourselves and with your whole heart turn to the Lord in repentance, then shall ye be able to escape it, if your heart is pure and blameless." After explaining to him that "the golden color stands for you who have escaped from this world," the virgin concluded her messages with, "Now ye know the symbol of the great tribulation to come. But if ye are willing, it shall be nothing."

This book is allegorical. It has always been interpreted as allegorical; and most scholars would agree that it has more to do with ethical behavior than theology. Now when I say what I'm about to say, I in no way mean this to discredit you. So PLEASE do not look on this as any sort of attack. You are my brother even if we disagree. But I know that we are both researchers, that we research our posts at least on a cursory level before we post them. As such, I searched your texts here...and I believe I found the website that you lifted them from; down to the order of the quotes and even the blue font. it's a Rapture website. Now I could be wrong about that; but IF this comes from that source, or one like it...it already suggests a huge bias in my mind. They are advancing their own theory, thus it may not be an objective view of the texts. Furthermore, these are just RANDOM quotes that I can't even properly reference. Neither what you have nor the website that looks coincidentally (?) like your quotes reference all the works that these were taken from, nor the verses or chapters in the case of Hermas. For the ones that do have references, I don't have physical copies of what was written. I would want to put these in proper context before being able to make a claim one way or the other. I want to see what the paragraphs before and after these quotes say because this is always a bit of a red flag to me; it suggests that said passages could very plausibly be taken out of context. I believe that is the case with this passage in Hermas. I had to remove and dust off my physical copy of Hermas to actually find this reference.This is what the text ACTUALLY says:

"it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly. Cast your cares upon the Lord, and He will direct them. Trust the Lord, ye who doubt, for He is all-powerful, and can turn His anger away from you, and send scourges" on the doubters. Woe to those who hear these words, and despise them: better were it for them not to have been born." (emphasis mine)

Spending the rest of the days of my life serving the Lord blamelessly does not sound like prophecy. And just so you know that I'm not taking this from a website, this is from the translation of the Lost Books of the Bible by Bell Publishing Company. Like I said bro, no offense, but Hermas is a book of ethics, not prophecy. This was one of the reasons why it was rejected as Canon in the first place. But for my money's worth, I personally think it should be in there, or at least taught from more regularly, because Lord knows, we need more sound ethical Christian teaching.

Moving along, the Victorinus and Cyprian quotes are just too random for me to effectively comment on them. I need more contextual evidence. Is this available in a pdf or something? I would want to read the whole chapter or the entire sermon before I would draw a conclusion one way or the other on it.

With regards to Ephraim, or perhaps more suitably Pseudo-Ephraim; these works are in dispute. Now I will admit,whether this is the writing of the actual saint or someone else, it DOES sound like he is advocating for the rapture. There is no refuting that. I read his entire sermon on this and it is clear that is what he is talking about.

However;

So forget that useless, fictitious and conventional argument that the Rapture was something invented in the 19th century.

this is a bit of a rarely arrogant and dismissive statement coming from you. Just because we can throw around one solid example, Ephraim or Pseudo Ephraim of supporting the Rapture; and POSSIBLY these other ones (that I can't comment on because I don't have the proper context); this still does not refute my original argument. If this doctrine of the rapture was so widespread in the early church; then why was it never taught in either the Roman Catholic Church or the Eastern Orthodox Church? My whole point is that AS A WHOLE this idea of the rapture did not BECOME mainstream theology until the 19th century. If it was so prevalent, Jor-El; then why didn't Saint Augustine write about it? Why didn't Saint Thomas Aquinas, the great Doctor of the Church write about it? Why didn't Saint Basil the Great,Saint Gregory Nazianzen or Saint Symeon the New Theologian of the eastern church write about it? Even IF it existed on the fringes of Orthodox or Catholic Christianity, it most certainly does not mean that it WAS orthodox. Furthermore, as I said before; since you are Protestant...why didn't Luther or Calvin or Wesley or Zwingli write of it or advocate it? It's just ABSENT. You can't sidestep that fact so easily.

A couple fleeting examples against the entire testimony of the Eastern and Western churches all the way up to the reformation does not make for all that compelling or convincing of an argument.

Lastly,

Now let me ask you, who exactly will actually proclaim his Gospel throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations?

Is it the Church or is it his Holy people, who have not been forgotten but who received his special mark setting them apart as a remnant once again?

You HONESTLY believe this is NOT the church? What have we been trying to do these past 2,000 years then? I'm sorry, but I'm actually baffled by this one. Is this NOT the point of the whole existence of the church? Is this NOT our mission? I can't believe I would ever do this to you; but this is I think the only time I would ever have to insert a half joking on you.

Anyway, good discussion as always man. Have a blessed Holy Thursday,

MA

Edited April 17, 2014 by Marcus Aurelius

[Jor-el]

I am posting from a local library and have but 30 minutes left, but will answer more thoroughly tomorrow.

For comparative purposes read Isaiah chapter 19 and Revelation chapter 19.

I did as you asked and read through both Chapters and as far as I can see, I honestly see no clear relationship between them.

Isaiah 19 is a prophecy concerning Egypt and its destiny as seen by the Lord. Clearly the prophecy futurist, since the River Nile has never in fact dried up in all of its known history. We do not know of the specific events that will cause this catastrophe for Egypt, although some speculate that it might be related to a mega-Dam being built at this time by the Ethiopians.

Maybe you can provide the insight to this since you did the asking, which implies that you know something that is not readily apparent from the text.

God visited Judea in 70 AD and pronounced His judgment upon the faithless Babylonian Whore, which is the marriage supper, a supper to what marriage?

Oh God visited Judea in 70 A.D. and nobody saw him?

I know that you are referencing the Destruction of Jerusalem since that is the only event that might cause you to state such a thing, but I would state that rather than God, it was the Romans who did the visiting... The New Testament doesn't have any prophecy regarding the destruction of Jerusalem, although it does state that the temple will be destroyed.

Now, I know you believe the Whore of Babylon to be Jerusalem, so I understand what you are trying to say, but let me add something for your consideration...

The Great Whore of Babylon is the one who gave birth to all the abominations (sins, iniquity, sorcery, idolatry etc) committed on planet earth from Adam to Christ's second coming. Furthermore in Revelation 17:6 and Revelation 18:24 she was found to be responsible for the death of all who died on earth from Adam to Christ.

So I really have to ask, why you would consider that personage to be the City of Jerusalem? Is Jerusalem to blame for all the abominations that have arisen in the history of the planet? Is that city the locus for all sin, iniquity, sorcery and idolatry? Is that city responsible for every violent death that has occurred on the planet? and lastly, When has that City EVER reigned over the kings of the Earth?

Your position leaves much to be desired and does not aid in correctly identifying who or what that personage is.

As for the marriage supper of the Lamb as written in Revelation 19:17-19, the verse clearly states that the destruction is on men not on any particular city, and these men come from all over the earth.

¹⁷ Then I saw an angel standing in the sun, and with a loud voice he called to all the birds that fly directly overhead, “Come, gather for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ to eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all men, both free and slave, both small and great.” ¹⁹ And I saw the beast and the kings of the earth with their armies gathered to make war against him who was sitting on the horse and against his army.

You cannot make a case for this being a reference to the destruction of Jerusalem for being the supposed great Babylonian whore. It doesn't even make sense from an intellectual stance since the Jews and Jerusalem were never identified in any way with Babylon, just the opposite in fact.

The marriage to the church. Out with the Old Covenant and faithless Israel, in with the New Covenant and faithful church!

All very nice, if you are prepared to ignore verses like:

Romans 11:25

I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in,

Can you tell me what happens when the full number of gentiles has been completed? And what this verse really means is that there is a specific number of gentiles that will be saved, in essence it is a reference to the Church age which ends with the beginning of the Great Tribulation.

Also, what do you gain from Isaiah 34:4, or this pronouncement against Edom which has already been fulfilled, is it literal or symbolic?

Here is the passage:

Isaiah 34:4

And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling fig from the fig tree.

And all the hosts of heaven shall be dissolved,.... "to decay, rot, fester, pine away", as with sickness, grow languid, become obscure, lose their light, and be turned into blood and darkness; this figure is used to express the horror of this calamity, as if the very heavens themselves, and the sun, and moon, and stars, were affected with it; see Isaiah 13:10.

The stars of heaven and their constellations will not show their light. The rising sun will be darkened and the moon will not give its light.

Essentially it is a figure of speech intended to convey dismay at the harshness and utter seriousness of the judgment against the nations just as it was on Edom, which was totally destroyed.