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Was Jesus really crucified in a 'T' shape ?


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I was asking for a reference that the Romans did crucify hundreds or thousands. Which you posted. So thanks!

Apparently the Romans had no problem coming up with wood to crucify 6000, even if it was in Greece where wood is almost as hard to come by as in Judea.

As I recall the movie the crucifixions of Spartacus and all happened in Italy, where there is plenty of wood. As I recall Trajan also crucified a lot of people after the conquest of Jerusalem around 60 AD in Palestine. I don't have any idea where he got the wood.
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So Richard Dawkins has an opinion and all of a sudden, I'm supposed to smack myself in the head, and go, "Ah yes, Atheism is the answer."

If 2000 years of criticism didn't kill Christianity, Mr Dawkins certainly has zero chance by himself.

But to answer your question...... Yes.

And if not... What do you loose in the believing? It is free. It is all explained by mysticism, which is outside science, and so a person's belief in science shouldn't logically be impaired. If I drop a rock off the Space Needle, I know that the rock will drop straight down. I can pray it will not, and if it does not, then I must ascribe that to the mystical. If you sustain that the mystical does not exist, then there can be no successful prayer, and so no harm/difference is made.

Let me know if the rock ever fails to drop. The harm is when children are indoctrinated to believe that miracles and not hard work and smart decisions will save them, or that Armageddon is inevitable or that we don't have to take care of the earth cause Jesus is gonna make us a new one
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So Richard Dawkins has an opinion and all of a sudden, I'm supposed to smack myself in the head, and go, "Ah yes, Atheism is the answer."

If 2000 years of criticism didn't kill Christianity, Mr Dawkins certainly has zero chance by himself.

But to answer your question...... Yes.

And if not... What do you loose in the believing? It is free. It is all explained by mysticism, which is outside science, and so a person's belief in science shouldn't logically be impaired. If I drop a rock off the Space Needle, I know that the rock will drop straight down. I can pray it will not, and if it does not, then I must ascribe that to the mystical. If you sustain that the mystical does not exist, then there can be no successful prayer, and so no harm/difference is made.

People should question things, and not go "Yep this is it".Does not my profile pic make you wonder some?

In that 2,000 years Christianity had a strangle hold on people's minds with dreadfull results.

Psalm 14:1

King James Version (KJV)

14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Edited by davros of skaro
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People should question things, and not go "Yep this is it".Does not my profile pic make you wonder some?

In that 2,000 years Christianity had a strangle hold on people's minds with dreadfull results.

Isn't your "strangle hold" true for all religion? Of which 95% of the World identify with?

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14 The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Next time God writes a book, he should include quotation marks so we know exactly whats being said

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Let me know if the rock ever fails to drop. The harm is when children are indoctrinated to believe that miracles and not hard work and smart decisions will save them, or that Armageddon is inevitable or that we don't have to take care of the earth cause Jesus is gonna make us a new one

Kind of like the people who only pray when they get ill or injured? Those people are plain wrong. Jesus never said, rely only on God's healing. He said the God's healing was miraculous, as was the multiplilcation of food, but He never said, "Don't go to the village healer, or grow food... just pray for that to happen."

Jesus said, "Do not put your Lord God to the test." when he was Tempted in the desert by Satan. Which means pray for miracles, but go to the doctor. Pray for help with your finances, but go to work so you can buy food. Trust God/Jesus will help you, but don't depend on it.

I teach my kids that they need to do things for themselves, and if they get into a tight spot, then pray, and also continue to do the best you can.

God did give us dominion over the Earth, but he didn't say anywhere to go ahead and use it up. That is the actions of humanity that does that.

Edited by DieChecker
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Kind of like the people who only pray when they get ill or injured? Those people are plain wrong. Jesus never said, rely only on God's healing. He said the God's healing was miraculous, as was the multiplilcation of food, but He never said, "Don't go to the village healer, or grow food... just pray for that to happen."

Jesus said, "Do not put your Lord God to the test." when he was Tempted in the desert by Satan. Which means pray for miracles, but go to the doctor. Pray for help with your finances, but go to work so you can buy food. Trust God/Jesus will help you, but don't depend on it.

I teach my kids that they need to do things for themselves, and if they get into a tight spot, then pray, and also continue to do the best you can.

God did give us dominion over the Earth, but he didn't say anywhere to go ahead and use it up. That is the actions of humanity that does that.

A commendable attitude, no doubt. There are those however who won't vaccinate their children or use doctors because they think prayer will heal them. The bible does have conflicting verses on this and many other things. Jesus said, "Consider the lilies of the field, they toil not neither do they spin" also ask and ye shall receive. He seemed to say that whatever you wanted God would give you, if your faith was great enough. And what motivation is there to conserve and protect the earth if Jesus is coming back soon to create a " new heaven and a new earth"? There may be no contradiction between believing in a higher power and science but it is clear that Genesis is myth and not a factual account of creation. The universe was not created in 6 days 6000 years ago. If this is not literally true, I see no reason to have any belief in the rest of the story. Without the garden and original sin what reason would there be for the Christ to be sacrificed? Edited by spacecowboy342
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Isn't your "strangle hold" true for all religion? Of which 95% of the World identify with?

Do children of some these religions have a choice?

Here is something for you to read if interested?

http://etb-history-theology.blogspot.com/2012/03/execution-of-child-and-adulterers-in.html?m=1

Edited by davros of skaro
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Let me know if the rock ever fails to drop. The harm is when children are indoctrinated to believe that miracles and not hard work and smart decisions will save them, or that Armageddon is inevitable or that we don't have to take care of the earth cause Jesus is gonna make us a new one

I've never understood the "we don't have to take care of the earth" argument. Jesus taught that the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbours as ourselves, and logically our children and our children's children are (or should I say, will be) our neighbours, it doesn't sound very "loving" to let them inherit an earth in ecological collapse (it's certainly not what I'd want). I'd argue, then, that loving our neighbours demands that we take care of the earth.
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Why we pray is a bit of a puzzlement. It is selfish to pray for things we want, plus an implication that the good Lord is not doing his job right; prayers of gratitude seem superfluous and maybe a little k/a.

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Why we pray is a bit of a puzzlement. It is selfish to pray for things we want, plus an implication that the good Lord is not doing his job right; prayers of gratitude seem superfluous and maybe a little k/a.

"When I was a kid I wanted to pray for a bicycle, but the priest said it didn't work that way, so I stole a bike and prayed for forgiveness." - Al Pacino
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I've never understood the "we don't have to take care of the earth" argument. Jesus taught that the second greatest commandment is to love our neighbours as ourselves, and logically our children and our children's children are (or should I say, will be) our neighbours, it doesn't sound very "loving" to let them inherit an earth in ecological collapse (it's certainly not what I'd want). I'd argue, then, that loving our neighbours demands that we take care of the earth.

Yeah!

Jesus is all about going "Green" when he says he's coming soon with all the smoke, and fire talk.

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Why we pray is a bit of a puzzlement. It is selfish to pray for things we want, plus an implication that the good Lord is not doing his job right; prayers of gratitude seem superfluous and maybe a little k/a.

Praying is not just asking God for stuff we want. Prayer is simply talking to God. I pray to God similar to the way I talk to my brother or girlfriend - today's been good, went to see a movie, met a new friend, finished my work by the bosses deadline, that kind of thing. But because he's also God, not just my brother or girlfriend, I'll also seek his guidance - strengthen me to do your will in the future, as one example. And sure, sometimes prayer is asking for stuff we'd like. I don't think it's selfish to seek the aid of the creator, and there's no guarantee that he'll say "yes, your wish is magically granted", and there's no implication at all that God isn't doing things right.

People often mistake prayer as just asking for stuff, but in my opinion that reduces God to nothing more than a genie in a bottle. The God I pray to is not so petty as that.

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Well first to your assertion that there is no implication when you ask God for something that he isn't doing things right. I don't see how it can help but imply that, in spite of your saying otherwise.

Then your assertion that it isn't selfish. When a husband prays for the life of his wife, considering all the other dying people around, it sure strikes me as selfish. Honorable and understandable as it is, it remains selfish too.

I see no particular point in talking to God except to keep oneself honest with oneself, and I doubt it really achieves that since we are all so good at fooling ourselves and telling God these things would only serve to reinforce it. If we think what we are doing has God's guidance or approval, we are going to have a lot less humility and a lot less doubt and question as to whether or not we are doing the right thing.

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Do children of some these religions have a choice?

Here is something for you to read if interested?

http://etb-history-t...ers-in.html?m=1

Do you have a choice in following the laws of your home?

Those were the laws of the time. Just as our laws are the laws of our time.

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Well first to your assertion that there is no implication when you ask God for something that he isn't doing things right. I don't see how it can help but imply that, in spite of your saying otherwise.

It is not as simple as Get Stuff, or Fail.

What I've come to believe is that it is OK to pray for stuff, because God is only going to give you what He's going to give you.

If you break a finger bone and pray for it to be healed, and it isn't, that does not mean that the person with the broken finger did not have enough Faith, or that God is turned from that person, it simply means that the person's life Requires him to have that broken finger at this time in his life. To make him what he needs to be in the future.

Some say that if you pray enough, you can convince Jesus to intervene with God and heal what normally would not be healed. This is where you get people praying for days and weeks and months, and perhaps in great numbers for a healing. And it does seem to work sometimes, but it is hard to tell, as perhaps the reason the healing did not happen immediately was to provide a lesson to one of the people praying, or to bring specific people together, or even to bring non-believers to the Lord. It is impossible to say, as "Your ways Lord are not Our ways". It is impossible to know the Mind of God. Why he does what he does.

Edited by DieChecker
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I see no particular point in talking to God except to keep oneself honest with oneself, and I doubt it really achieves that since we are all so good at fooling ourselves and telling God these things would only serve to reinforce it. If we think what we are doing has God's guidance or approval, we are going to have a lot less humility and a lot less doubt and question as to whether or not we are doing the right thing.

Think of it as the ultimate peer pressure. God is watching you ALL the time. So you better act like it.... :innocent:

They say that if you consciously act a certain way long enough, that it eventually becomes how you will really, unconsciously, act.

Edited by DieChecker
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The big objection to Darwin when he first published was that this removed the need for God as creator. Of course there were more level heads who didn't say this, but the popular press did.

Not that this itself was seen as so bad; what was seen as bad is that this removed the moral constraint of religious belief -- that now everyone would feel free to go out and be bad knowing there were no divine consequences.

Funny it hasn't turned out that way. A lot of people it seems don't need God to keep them moral. Then, again, maybe the criminal element manages to do what it does in spite of believing in God, although how I can't see.

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The big objection to Darwin when he first published was that this removed the need for God as creator. Of course there were more level heads who didn't say this, but the popular press did.

Not that this itself was seen as so bad; what was seen as bad is that this removed the moral constraint of religious belief -- that now everyone would feel free to go out and be bad knowing there were no divine consequences.

Funny it hasn't turned out that way. A lot of people it seems don't need God to keep them moral. Then, again, maybe the criminal element manages to do what it does in spite of believing in God, although how I can't see.

It could be argued that since those who follow religion are still in the majority, that they actually have most of the legal controls of most nations, and thus the laws of the land reflect the predominant religion to a large degree.

So even though individuals can chose to ignore religions morals and ethics, they are constrained by civil law to follow much of what the religious believe.

Those who were scared by Darwin didn't understand that they still held all the power, because they still controlled the governments.

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Do you have a choice in following the laws of your home?

Those were the laws of the time. Just as our laws are the laws of our time.

We no longer need superstition to fill the gaps of ignorrance.

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We no longer need superstition to fill the gaps of ignorrance.

9 out of 10 people alive would beg to differ. There is something to be said for a tradition that fills a social role as a method to retain ethics and morals.

Humans cannot function on logic alone, they are emotional animals.

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9 out of 10 people alive would beg to differ. There is something to be said for a tradition that fills a social role as a method to retain ethics and morals.

Humans cannot function on logic alone, they are emotional animals.

The largest growing religious denomination is "unaffiliated". Religion is shrinking rapidly and your assertion that 90% of the world being religious is a bit high I think
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http://www.pewforum.org/2012/10/09/nones-on-the-rise/

The number of Americans who do not identify with any religion continues to grow at a rapid pace. One-fifth of the U.S. public – and a third of adults under 30 – are religiously unaffiliated today, the highest percentages ever in Pew Research Center polling.

OH MY!!! DOOM!!!

But wait.....

However, a new survey by the Pew Research Center’s Forum on Religion & Public Life, conducted jointly with the PBS television program Religion & Ethics NewsWeekly, finds that many of the country’s 46 million unaffiliated adults are religious or spiritual in some way. Two-thirds of them say they believe in God (68%).

Thank God!!!

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One does notice that an instrument of painful and extended death is the symbol of Christianity. It tells you a lot about that particular religion.

All religions deal with the fact of suffering, but Christianity does seem to be the only one that glories in it.

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