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LucidElement

Holocaust

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I know this is a touchy subject, however as a history major I really find WW2 and this part very interesting. As brutal as it was and sad as it was, I have been reading a lot lately on Auschwitz and the slave laborer camps. Its still so hard to believe that ONE man had complete control over the minds of so many people in Germany and could make them do the things they did. I know their is controversy about the death toll of Jews not being 6 million and maybe half of that, or ann frank not writing her diary because it was written in ball point pen, and that right their proves it wasnt an authentic diary. Anyways, im not interested in going into that part. Im more interested in hearing your thoughts and making a discussion surrounding the Holocaust. Herman Goening, Rudolph Hoss, Himmler, Albert Speer, all major players. Anything about the holocaust is fascinating to me, ive been to the holocaust museum and it was horrific and sad. THe conditions of Auschwitz and the stories about the survivors and the escape attempts were all fascinating to me. Especially the famous escape attempt where a few inmates dressed up as guards and drove Commandant Rudolph Hoss's car right out the front gate!!! but anyways, please feel free to join this thread, im always interested in having a holocaust conversation and learning things I have not read about. Ill keep posting as we get into convo.

Thanks!

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I defy anybody to visit Auschwitz and not be moved,it was literally an industrial estate of death.I think Himmler and the SS definitely implemented the final solution but a lot of people had blood on their hands.Of course Hitler instigated it but there were many other pathological Jew haters,Heydrich,Goebbels,Hess,Frank ad infinitum,in the Nazi regime who played their part.I recommend a book called Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning that examines perfectly normal middle aged men taking part in the mass killing of thousands of Jews Poles and Russians to give you an insight into the mentality of the normal Germans who weren't fanatical but did unthinkable acts

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Its still so hard to believe that ONE man had complete control over the minds of so many people in Germany and could make them do the things they did.

If you find enough gullible people to believe the malarky you feed them, others will fall in line for fear of standing out or fear of dying or fear of losing everything, including family. He's not the first nor the last to have people blindly follow his will, though most others have done it under the guise of religion.

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I have been reading a lot lately on Auschwitz and the slave laborer camps.authentic diary.

I`m sorry but it seems you did not as you are talking about "Holocause", Hermann Goening and Rudolph Hoss.

And BTW, I`m missing the exact point of your interest in this part of the German history outside some story`s of

escaping or whatever and I`m in the assumption that you are taking one of the darkest parts of human history

not with the respectability that it requires.

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Why is this topic in the Ancient History and Alternative History forum and not the Paeolontology, Archaeology and History forum?

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Posted (edited)

I`m sorry but it seems you did not as you are talking about "Holocause", Hermann Goening and Rudolph Hoss.

He's possibly talking about Rudolph Höss (commandant of Auschwitz) and not Rudolph Hess. Edited by JesseCuster

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I just finished Joel Rosenberg's work of fiction based on the escapes from Auschwitz. It was a good read, though it made my blood boil in places. I thought the title of the thread was intended to be a pun. The CAUSE of the holocaust as it were. I think the German people were no more evil than any other group of their day or of this day. They are just an example of the murderous lemmings mankind can become under the right conditions. Remember, they were some of the most educated and enlightened minds on earth at the time. Evil exists just below the level of daily conscience and consciousness for most people - give it a wink and it will jump into your lap.

70 years on we have large numbers of people who deny the proof of the event even while denying that another could occur due to a nuclear weapon being unleashed on the SAME family of victims from that time. Seems we have an endless capacity to hound out the nonconformists, the different, from among us. And don't kid yourself. It WILL happen again. Just a matter of time.

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Posted (edited)

He's possibly talking about Rudolph Höss (commandant of Auschwitz) and not Rudolph Hess.

Anyway

Edited by toast

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Of course Hitler instigated it but there were many other pathological Jew haters,Heydrich,Goebbels,Hess,Frank ad infinitum,in the Nazi regime who played their part.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heydrich

I thought he deserved special mention, because he is considered to have been probably the most terrifying of Hitlers henchmen.

Reinhard Heydrich is one of the most overlooked of Hitlers henchmen, but it was in fact him who was resposible for the implementation of the "endlösung" (holocaust) and set up the SS einsatsgruppen. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Einsatzgruppen)

To top it of he was also head of the Gestapo.

All in all a truly horrific man !

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While most are indeed shocked by the Holocaust, I'm convinced that pushing a public to support such actions is probably a lot less complicated than most think - or would care to admit.

Look how easy it was for the US to round up Americans of Japanese descent during WWII. Is it such a huge leap to think that, had an execution order been given, that many would have had an issue with it? I don't think so. All it would take would be to whip up enough war paranoia.

Look at the US post-9/11. How easy would it have been to round up all Muslims? Would that many have really objected to it under the guise of National Security?

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While most are indeed shocked by the Holocaust, I'm convinced that pushing a public to support such actions is probably a lot less complicated than most think - or would care to admit.

Look how easy it was for the US to round up Americans of Japanese descent during WWII...

...Canada as well.

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I have recently seen a documentary from a David Cole (Jewish film maker) who exposes the lies about Auschwitz. I don't want to expound the issues raised by Mr Cole here otherwise i'd be labelled an anti-Semite, but you can look his film up where he documents his visit to Auschwitz.

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First off....the Final Solution was engineered more by Himmler than Hitler. Hitler opened the door and let his minions concoct the details....

Second....it wasn't just one man...it was an ever growing insanity that percolated through the people. They were absolutely upset about the losses, embarrassment and punishment of world war 1 and this was an easy scapegoat. Let us not forget the Jewish people have been cast out for centuries...this was just history repeating itself. What better thing to rally the people than a common threat? Most of the German adults at the time admit they were swooned into it....they pretended not to know the details but for them, life was getting better and they really didn't want to ask why...they did not want to know the details.

Auschwitz was just one of many...it gets the most press but all were horrible killing factories....it's hard to wrap your brain around the numbers.

There is a similar phenomenon going on now...less the genocide...a certain group of people are excelling...they don't want to know the collateral damage of their successes....all they know is the check shows up and they get to live large...if they knew all the truth...they would prob throw themselves out of a window on Wall Street....oh wait...some are doing that now...

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Posted (edited)

The by you to Cole given title Jewish film maker is wrong and misleading. Cole is a born US citizen and it`s

not proved that he is a jew, this information is only based on his own informations given. Based on the fact of

his relationship to David McCalden, an irish neonazi and Holocaust denier, in the 80s and based on the fact

that Cole was a member of the Church of Creator (US racist organisation) during his Highschool time it

must be judged that his claim to be a jew is just a constructed camouflage to get some more open doors for his

populistic work. The movie you are talking about is named "Ein Deutscher und ein Jude untersuchen Auschwitz"

(A German and a jew examine Auschwitz) and was made in 1993. For the movie and his visit to Auschwitz,

together with Ernst Zündel (German revisionist), Cole disguised himself as an orthodox jew by wearing a Kippa,

with the target to get deeper informations by the Polish staff members at Auschwitz. From wiki:

“I (Cole) reasoned that if I went to Auschwitz as a Jew rather than as a revisionist that I would have a better

chance to cut through the misinformation and lies that so distort what really happened in the German camps

during the war. ... So, donning my yarmulke, and not letting anybody in Poland know where my sympathies

were, I began my journey.”

Pls check link for further details : http://www.theguardi...ust-revisionist

Cole is a neo-nazi. Period.

I have recently seen a documentary

from a David Cole (Jewish film maker) who exposes the lies about Auschwitz. I don't want to expound the

issues raised by Mr Cole here otherwise i'd be labelled an anti-Semite, but you can look his film up where he documents his visit to Auschwitz.

If you think there are lies about Auschwitz, means that the common knowledge isn`t the truth, how should I

label you then?

Edited by toast
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If you think there are lies about Auschwitz, means that the common knowledge isn`t the truth, how should I

label you then?

Why do you need to label people?

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Why do you need to label people?

You didn`t wanted to get labeled but if you are talking about Auschwitz lies, you have to accept to get labeled.

Do you think that the common knowledge about Auschwitz is wrong in any kind?

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Why do you need to label people?

But didn't you say, "I have recently seen a documentary from a David Cole (Jewish film maker)..."?

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And here we are almost 12 hours later with no reply from the OP.

The can of worms... you opened it.

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It was the era of propaganda and sensationalism ruling policies ~ and all sides were equally culpable and guilty ~

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Crap lol... I just realized I spelled Holocaust wrong on the forum title! If any mod can fix that I'd appreciate it. Saruman, lol help and old old friend.. now I'm going back to read all the posts... it was first thing that caught my eye m

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I defy anybody to visit Auschwitz and not be moved,it was literally an industrial estate of death.I think Himmler and the SS definitely implemented the final solution but a lot of people had blood on their hands.Of course Hitler instigated it but there were many other pathological Jew haters,Heydrich,Goebbels,Hess,Frank ad infinitum,in the Nazi regime who played their part.I recommend a book called Ordinary Men by Christopher Browning that examines perfectly normal middle aged men taking part in the mass killing of thousands of Jews Poles and Russians to give you an insight into the mentality of the normal Germans who weren't fanatical but did unthinkable acts

Goebbels, Hess, Frank, Himmler, Speer, ect... even regular citizens, like you said were influenced to act the way they did by Hitler. However, these people had to have had a dark soul to follow out the beliefs of one man. It's crazy to think today, I doubt ONE man would be powerful enough to turn a whole country against a certain type of people. I mean you had the KKK, (still do in a sense) and they are ANTI (a lot of things) but they dont have the pwoer that hitler had (its crazy how he sparked the influence of so many people)... and the reason perfectly normal middle aged people were involved in these crimes against humanity (in my opinion) was because it was looked upon as O.K and it was what everyone around them were doing. It was all over the media, (Goebbels, had a huge impact on propaganda)

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I think the persecution and execution of the Jews, Gypsies, and others, aside from ethnic cleansing, was a step back to a Medieval society, where outlanders and foreigners, unless they had their own soldiers, were targets open to anyone to rob or beat down. Being a Russian in Spain, or a Frenchmen in Poland, or a Italian in England, would mark you out and make you a target, and you had little to no legal standing in a foreign nation.

I think not only were the Germans trying to clean the gene pool, so to speak, but they were trying to head back to a more "traditional" era. Both probably were bad ideas and in the end neither worked out in the German's favor.

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If you find enough gullible people to believe the malarky you feed them, others will fall in line for fear of standing out or fear of dying or fear of losing everything, including family. He's not the first nor the last to have people blindly follow his will, though most others have done it under the guise of religion.

I agree with what your saying, and Hitler came at a time when German's economy was in a struggle, but I dont think, im almost certain, their wouldn't be ONE tyrant who could rule almost an entire country (almost continent),. there was Alexander the Great, Atila the Hun, Ghengis Khan, just to name a few... and then Hitler... Difference with hitler is he used his VOICE to mold a society into one prejudice type of thinking which is crazy. As *****d as he was and the whole situation was, he still was one of the greatest orators ever. One man, through words controls millions of people.!!!! But going back to your comment, I dont think in this day and age one man can simply take over control like that, how it used to be. To many foreign relations, and politics, and this and that to let anything like that happen.

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The Holocaust is a good example of the saying "Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely". Trying to play down or remove responsibility for the attrocities committed during the Holocaust from those who performed them suggests a complete lack of compassion for the victims and families of said attrocities IMO.

cormac

I agree, and im reading this book called "Operation Paperclip" I have another thread going about it. But its basically about all the NAZI Scientists, that were spared during the Nuremberg trials, who were found guilty, but pardoned and brought to the USA to help us with out weapons and space programs. Some are well known in today's fields of science and space, but do we still forgive them for how they treated the innocent people during WWII, and what they created for Hitler?

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Need to speed what up? As utterly horrific the holocaust was, the world's population increases each year by more than that number. If it's some sort of way for life to perform population control (I think that's what you're implying), then genocide is a horribly inefficient of achieving it.

It took the earth's population thousand of years-from the early dawn of man all the way to the early 1800s-to reach one billion people. Then astoundingly, it took only about a hundred years to double the population to two billion in the 1920s. After that, it took a mere fifty years for the population to double again to four billion in the 1970s. As you can imagine, we're well on track to reach eight billion very soon. Just today, the human race added another quarter-billion people to planet Earth. A quarter million. And this happens ever day-rain or shine. Currently every year er 're adding the equivalent of the entire country of Germany.”

Dan Brown, Inferno

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