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The Marriage Supper - Revelation chapter 19

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Posted (edited)

I am going to post up remarks on this chapter from preterist, amillennial, and postmillennial commentors (the former views which I hold).

On Revelation Revelation 19:1-10, David Chilton (Days Of Vengeance) writes:

The destruction of the Harlot and the marriage of the Lamb and the Bride - the divorce and the wedding - are correlative events. The existance of the Church as the congregation of the New Covenant marks an entirely new epoch in the history of redemption. God was not now merely taking Gentile believers into the Old Covenant (as He had done under the Old Testament economy). Rather, He was bringing in "the age to come" (Heb. 2:5; 6:5), the age of fulfillment ... With the final divorce and destruction of the unfaithful wife in AD 70, the marriage of the Church was firmly established.

The duty of the apostles during the Last Days was to prepare the Church for her nuptials. Paul wrote of Christ's sacrifice as the redemption of the Bride: He "loved the Church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word; that He might present to Himself the glorious Church, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless" (Eph. 5:25-27). Paul extended this imagery in speaking to the Corinthians about the goal of his ministry: "I am jealous for you with godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one Husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin" (2 Cor. 11:2-3)

On Revelation 19:11-21, Jay E Adams (The Time Is At Hand) writes:

That this does not describe a physical coming such as the second advent is apparent from at least two facts: first, Christ is nowhere else said to return upon a horse. He did not ascend this way, and he is to return as He ascended ....Secondly, the conflict described here is spiritual, not physical (unlike that which will transpire at the second advent). This is a battle waged and won by the Word of God. This is clear from the reference to the Word as the weapon which issues from the mouth of the Savior - cf. verses 15 and 21.

David S Clark (The Message From Patmos) writes:

Now I submit the question: Is this not the conqueroring power of the gospel and the triumph of Christianity? The sword of the Spirit which is the word of God, by preaching, and teaching, and testimony conquers the world for Christ.

We saw the dragon going forth to make war upon the woman (the church) and her seed (12:17). We saw the beast and the false prophet bring all the powers at their disposal to crush the church of God. But that was only one side of the lines. The battle was not so one-sided as that. Here is a better leader with his army. The foe will be met with a better army and a better weapon than his own, and we will see presently what the outcome of the conflict will be.

Let the church remember that this rider on the white horse is the living Jesus, that he is in the forefront of every battle, that just as he conquered the beast and the false prophet, so he will conquer every enemy ... the rider on the white horse is still riding on. Let the church follow, clothed in linen, white and clean.

David Chilton (Days Of Vengeance writes:

A basic curse of the covenant is that of being eaten by birds of prey (cf. Deut. 28:26, 49). Israel is now a sacrificial corpse (Matt. 24:28), and there is no longer anyone who can drive away the scavengers (cf. Genesis 15:11; Deut. 28:26). John's language is borrowed from God's invitation through Ezekiel "to every bird and beast of the field" to devour the corpses of His enemies (Ezek. 39:17-20).

Edited by GoSC

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I am going to post up remarks on this chapter from preterist, amillennial, and postmillennial commentors (the former views which I hold).

On Revelation Revelation 19:1-10, David Chilton (Days Of Vengeance) writes:

The destruction of the Harlot and the marriage of the Lamb and the Bride - the divorce and the wedding - are correlative events. The existance of the Church as the congregation of the New Covenant marks an entirely new epoch in the history of redemption. God was not now merely taking Gentile believers into the Old Covenant (as He had done under the Old Testament economy). Rather, He was bringing in "the age to come" (Heb. 2:5; 6:5), the age of fulfillment ... With the final divorce and destruction of the unfaithful wife in AD 70, the marriage of the Church was firmly established.

The duty of the apostles during the Last Days was to prepare the Church for her nuptials. Paul wrote of Christ's sacrifice as the redemption of the Bride: He "loved the Church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the Word; that He might present to Himself the glorious Church, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless" (Eph. 5:25-27). Paul extended this imagery in speaking to the Corinthians about the goal of his ministry: "I am jealous for you with godly jealousy; for I betrothed you to one Husband, that to Christ I might present you as a pure virgin" (2 Cor. 11:2-3)

On Revelation 19:11-21, Jay E Adams (The Time Is At Hand) writes:

That this does not describe a physical coming such as the second advent is apparent from at least two facts: first, Christ is nowhere else said to return upon a horse. He did not ascend this way, and he is to return as He ascended ....Secondly, the conflict described here is spiritual, not physical (unlike that which will transpire at the second advent). This is a battle waged and won by the Word of God. This is clear from the reference to the Word as the weapon which issues from the mouth of the Savior - cf. verses 15 and 21.

David S Clark (The Message From Patmos) writes:

Now I submit the question: Is this not the conqueroring power of the gospel and the triumph of Christianity? The sword of the Spirit which is the word of God, by preaching, and teaching, and testimony conquers the world for Christ.

We saw the dragon going forth to make war upon the woman (the church) and her seed (12:17). We saw the beast and the false prophet bring all the powers at their disposal to crush the church of God. But that was only one side of the lines. The battle was not so one-sided as that. Here is a better leader with his army. The foe will be met with a better army and a better weapon than his own, and we will see presently what the outcome of the conflict will be.

Let the church remember that this rider on the white horse is the living Jesus, that he is in the forefront of every battle, that just as he conquered the beast and the false prophet, so he will conquer every enemy ... the rider on the white horse is still riding on. Let the church follow, clothed in linen, white and clean.

David Chilton (Days Of Vengeance writes:

A basic curse of the covenant is that of being eaten by birds of prey (cf. Deut. 28:26, 49). Israel is now a sacrificial corpse (Matt. 24:28), and there is no longer anyone who can drive away the scavengers (cf. Genesis 15:11; Deut. 28:26). John's language is borrowed from God's invitation through Ezekiel "to every bird and beast of the field" to devour the corpses of His enemies (Ezek. 39:17-20).

Do I understand correctly? You are saying Christ is not physically returning to the earth until the church has subdued his enemies with his word? You feel the church is winning in this day?

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Posted (edited)

Do I understand correctly? You are saying Christ is not physically returning to the earth until the church has subdued his enemies with his word? You feel the church is winning in this day?

That is postmillennialism, I am partial-Preterist amillennialist.

I quoted from one postmillennialist commentor but the rest of the quotes are from amillennialists.

I don't believe in the Rapture, I believe in the Second Coming only. I don't believe in a literal millennial rule of Christ on Earth.

I believe the Millenium spoken of in Revelation, is Christ ruling from Heaven since Pentacost until the Second Coming.

Here check this out:

Revelation 20:4

And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Now read Ecclestiastes 12:7, Luke 8:55, 2 Corinthians 5:8, and Philippians 1:21,23!

I believe the first Resurrection is the believers death and entrance into Heaven. Believers that pass on, are still souls when they are received into Heaven. But at Christ's return, His Second Coming, those that are with Christ will be resurrected into their glorified bodies and those that are alive HERE ON EARTH at Christ's Coming will be caught up with the Lord and the Resurrected in Christ being equally transformed along with the Resurrected Dead In Christ and Old Covenant believers into glorified immortal beings too in a twinkling of an eye and joined all together in the Kingdom of God.

However, the so will the wicked dead and wicked alive will also be resurrected but these will be judged and cast out of the Kingdom. This is when Christ destroys His final enemy... Death. The universe will not experience mortality ever again.

Additionally, this current Heaven and the Earth will be vaporized or dissolved, in order for a New Heavens and a New Earth to be constructed by God at Christ's Coming, where the glorified saints and Christ will exist for all eternity and Christ will hand up the throne to God (1 Corinthians 15:24).

To cut to the quick, I don't believe there will ever be a Millennial rule by Christ on this current earth. Millennium is the period between advents of Christ. Christ is sitting on the throne in heaven right now and the dead in Christ are sitting upon thrones too..

Edited by GoSC
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So what happens when Christ does come? Give us the sequence of events in a natural chronological order please....

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Posted (edited)

So what happens when Christ does come? Give us the sequence of events in a natural chronological order please....

It is not entirely clear but here are the primary verses to check out,

Matthew 13:36-43, 47-50, 25:31-33;

John 5:28-29, 6:39-40, 44, 54, 12:48;

1 Corinthians 15:23-26,50-52;

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10;

2 Peter 3:7, 10-13

Revelation 20:9-15

Please remember premillennialists, there is to be a new earth because this present one bears the curse pronounced on sin, and is blood-soaked and tear-stained (Rev. 21:4). It also witnessed the rejection and cruel death of its Creator and must therefore be transformed. Cleansed or renovated by fire, the new earth will exist as a pure one forever.

Premillennial eschatology is ultimately carnal in that it says Christ will reign on this earth for a 1,000 years while death and tears and the curse co-exists with Him and His Kingdom.

Edited by GoSC
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Well I guess there will be no need for the red carpet then I guess ~

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It is not entirely clear but here are the primary verses to check out,

Matthew 13:36-43, 47-50, 25:31-33;

John 5:28-29, 6:39-40, 44, 54, 12:48;

1 Corinthians 15:23-26,50-52;

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17;

2 Thessalonians 1:7-10;

2 Peter 3:7, 10-13

Revelation 20:9-15

Please remember premillennialists, there is to be a new earth because this present one bears the curse pronounced on sin, and is blood-soaked and tear-stained (Rev. 21:4). It also witnessed the rejection and cruel death of its Creator and must therefore be transformed. Cleansed or renovated by fire, the new earth will exist as a pure one forever.

Premillennial eschatology is ultimately carnal in that it says Christ will reign on this earth for a 1,000 years while death and tears and the curse co-exists with Him and His Kingdom.

I didn't ask for bible verses nor what others believe, I want an explanation in your own words. Explain the sequence of events as you think they will happen...

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Posted (edited)

Premillennial eschatology is ultimately carnal in that it says Christ will reign on this earth for a 1,000 years while death and tears and the curse co-exists with Him and His Kingdom.

Yes it is for very good reason, we were created carnal (physical, material) beings and the bible shows that human destiny is ultimately within the physical and material realm.... not some spruced up version of heaven with angels and harps on clouds. Our Destiny is the Earth. We believe in a physical resurrection with glorified bodies for a reason.

Edited by Jor-el
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Yes it is for very good reason, we were created carnal (physical, material) beings and the bible shows that human destiny is ultimately within the physical and material realm.... not some spruced up version of heaven with angels and harps on clouds. Our Destiny is the Earth. We believe in a physical resurrection with glorified bodies for a reason.

So what you are saying is Jesus' kingdom is of this world, and that flesh and blood and corrupt and mortal beings can inherit the kingdom of God without requiring a resurrection (dead in Christ) or bodily glorification (alive in Christ)?

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I didn't ask for bible verses nor what others believe, I want an explanation in your own words. Explain the sequence of events as you think they will happen...

Christ will come like a thief in the night, heaven shall pass away and the earth and its works will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 20:11)

The Dead In Christ will be raised (2 Thessalonians 4:16) & the alive in Christ will be caught up with them (2 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Corinthians 15:50-52)

The wicked dead will also be raised and judged (John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 12:48; Revelation 20:11-15)

A New Heavens and New Earth will be made (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1)

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So what you are saying is Jesus' kingdom is of this world, and that flesh and blood and corrupt and mortal beings can inherit the kingdom of God without requiring a resurrection (dead in Christ) or bodily glorification (alive in Christ)?

Did you just read the same sentence I actually posted? or are you merely being sarcastic here?

Yes it is for very good reason, we were created carnal (physical, material) beings and the bible shows that human destiny is ultimately within the physical and material realm.... not some spruced up version of heaven with angels and harps on clouds. Our Destiny is the Earth. We believe in a physical resurrection with glorified bodies for a reason.

Tell me, what is the reasoning behind the New Heavens and New Earth of Revelation 21?

Why bother with New Heavens and a New Earth at all?

Where will the redeemed who were resurrected and given glorified and eternal bodies reside?

Why were we given a body at all if we in Spirit form can be present in Heaven? I mean what's the point? Why bother with such a stupid promise if we can abide in spirit for in Heaven forever?

Think a little bit here, only one thing makes all these things logical, that humanities future is the material and physical realm, it is why we were created, it what the image of God is all about... Just as the Domain of the angelic host is the heavenly realm, ours is the material realm... so says the bible.

We the redeemed are the inheritors of Adam and Eves purpose in being created, Gods plan for humanity can now move forward, from where it was interrupted by the fall of humanity in the persons of Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden, everything comes full circle.... seriously, you never saw that?

Christ will come like a thief in the night, heaven shall pass away and the earth and its works will be burned up (2 Peter 3:10, Rev. 20:11)

The Dead In Christ will be raised (2 Thessalonians 4:16) & the alive in Christ will be caught up with them (2 Thessalonians 4:17; 1 Corinthians 15:50-52)

The wicked dead will also be raised and judged (John 5:28-29; John 6:39-40, 44, 54; 12:48; Revelation 20:11-15)

A New Heavens and New Earth will be made (2 Peter 3:13, Revelation 21:1)

And between the 1st act and the last, how much time passes?

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Did you just read the same sentence I actually posted? or are you merely being sarcastic here?

Yes it is for very good reason, we were created carnal (physical, material) beings and the bible shows that human destiny is ultimately within the physical and material realm.... not some spruced up version of heaven with angels and harps on clouds. Our Destiny is the Earth. We believe in a physical resurrection with glorified bodies for a reason.

Tell me, what is the reasoning behind the New Heavens and New Earth of Revelation 21?

Why bother with New Heavens and a New Earth at all?

Where will the redeemed who were resurrected and given glorified and eternal bodies reside?

Why were we given a body at all if we in Spirit form can be present in Heaven? I mean what's the point? Why bother with such a stupid promise if we can abide in spirit for in Heaven forever?

Think a little bit here, only one thing makes all these things logical, that humanities future is the material and physical realm, it is why we were created, it what the image of God is all about... Just as the Domain of the angelic host is the heavenly realm, ours is the material realm... so says the bible.

We the redeemed are the inheritors of Adam and Eves purpose in being created, Gods plan for humanity can now move forward, from where it was interrupted by the fall of humanity in the persons of Adam and Eve, in the garden of Eden, everything comes full circle.... seriously, you never saw that?

There is to be a new earth because this present one bears the curse pronounced on sin, and is blood-soaked and tear-stained. It also witness the rejection and cruel death of its Creator and must therefore be transformed. Cleansed and renovated by fire, the new earth will exist as a pure one forever. Hebrews 12:24-29 & 2 Peter 3:13.

And between the 1st act and the last, how much time passes?

Why does it matter?

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It seems to me that the labels 'preterist,' 'premillenialist,' 'post-millenialist' are unhelpful. What matters, given the oncoming thief in the night, is not how much verbiage, doctrinaire nor not, we can produce. What matters is what we do in "the Interim"--on the night patrol. . .

Why, for instance, not mention the very present and prescient (and carnal) remainder of the 25th chapter of the Gospel according to Matthew, not just 3 verses (post #5), which rather directly advises how we should behave--and what we should look for and be about--in this "carnal" life (which is all we know).

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There is to be a new earth because this present one bears the curse pronounced on sin, and is blood-soaked and tear-stained. It also witness the rejection and cruel death of its Creator and must therefore be transformed. Cleansed and renovated by fire, the new earth will exist as a pure one forever. Hebrews 12:24-29 & 2 Peter 3:13.

Why does it matter?

So in other words you don't really know.... thanks

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"All Christian language about the future is a set of signposts pointing into the mist."

-N.T. Wright, New Testament scholar

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The book of Revelation is pretty crazy and the interpretations even more so! I wonder if the bloke who wrote it was on a substance which would be considered illegal today?

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So in other words you don't really know.... thanks

The Bible doesnt divulge alot of details besides eternal life for the just with glorified (resurrected if the individual is deceased at the time of the Second Coming) bodies and a fiery judgment for the unjust (resurrected if the individual is deceased at the time of the Second Coming) and a fiery destruction of the Heavens and the Earth in order for God to reconstruct a New Heavens and New Earth.

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The Bible doesnt divulge alot of details besides eternal life for the just with glorified (resurrected if the individual is deceased at the time of the Second Coming) bodies and a fiery judgment for the unjust (resurrected if the individual is deceased at the time of the Second Coming) and a fiery destruction of the Heavens and the Earth in order for God to reconstruct a New Heavens and New Earth.

Well if you read Revelation.... it might make a lot of things clearer for you.

I have a question for you...

Did Jesus believe Adam and Eve were literal people or that they were metaphorical expressions in a mythical setting?

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Well if you read Revelation.... it might make a lot of things clearer for you.

I have a question for you...

Did Jesus believe Adam and Eve were literal people or that they were metaphorical expressions in a mythical setting?

Jesus probably believed the stories to be literally true, as a he was born in an era before science, he had no more knowledge than anyone else of his time, imo.

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Well if you read Revelation.... it might make a lot of things clearer for you.

I have a question for you...

Did Jesus believe Adam and Eve were literal people or that they were metaphorical expressions in a mythical setting?

Revelation 1:1 through 20:6, according to my partial preterist beliefs already happened in history, most everything in Revelation shouldn't be taken literally, remember Isaiah 34:4? Well, the same applies to Revelation.

Revelation was addressed to the 7 first century churches, written specifically for their encouragement during their tribulation which included the synagogue of Satan, the Jews who led the persecutions and the Neronian persecution that occurred between 64 AD - 68 AD.

But it also speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem and the second Temple.

Check this out, a comparision between Daniel 12:4, 9 and Revelation 22:

Daniel 12:4,9

But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

And he said, Go thy way, Daniel: for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end.

Revelation 22:10

And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.

Furthermore here are more scripture verses cited from Revelation:

Revelation 1:1,3; 22:6

The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done.

The Prophecies of Daniel were fulfilled a few hundred years after they were written BUT according to you, nearly 2,000 years have passed and the Revelation prophecies have yet to be fulfilled?????

Read the passages I posted above, if you dont believe. Daniel prophesied the coming of the Messiah during His first advent, Revelation prophesied Christian persecutions and the destruction of the Jerusalem in the 1st Century.

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I'm done debating you.... if you can't be bothered to answer my questions, then I will give you the same respect you have given me on the issue.

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I'm done debating you.... if you can't be bothered to answer my questions, then I will give you the same respect you have given me on the issue.

Will there be a resurrection at the rapture?

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Will there be a resurrection at the rapture?

Answer my questions and I will answer yours... don't ignore them or you will just be left speaking to yourself...

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Answer my questions and I will answer yours... don't ignore them or you will just be left speaking to yourself...

John 5:24 is the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6!

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John 5:24 is the first resurrection spoken of in Revelation 20:4-6!

In other words, no, you won't answer my questions... see what I mean, I am not here as your poster board, interaction and give and take in discussion is an essential part of a debate. Since such a thing is not possible with you, I will now take my leave.

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