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and then

Preparing the next generations

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Posted (edited)

Sad but not surprising.

You have to teach hate in children, they are not born with it =(

Well except at school when they get older they can be pretty cruel to other kids

Edited by spartan max2
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What children are taught before their teens stays with them the rest of their lives. It's possible to break the programming but it is very difficult. There will never be any chance for coexistence while this behavior continues and there is no analogue in Israeli society. The Palestinians feel justified to do this as part of their struggle but it renders any chance of peace impossible.

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What children are taught before their teens stays with them the rest of their lives. It's possible to break the programming but it is very difficult. There will never be any chance for coexistence while this behavior continues and there is no analogue in Israeli society. The Palestinians feel justified to do this as part of their struggle but it renders any chance of peace impossible.

Teach open mindedness. Then one will be able to discern their own set ideas through constant crisiticism and analysis. The problem with when we age you can see a more steadfast resilience towards ones set array of beliefs and ideas. We must strive to sustain the malleability of ones ideas and beliefs throughout our entire lives. As no one idea or belief is truly perfect in theory or practise.

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You have to teach hate in children, they are not born with it =(

If you don't want Palestinians -or Americans- to hate you, don't oppress them or else they will. You don't hate tyranny? You have to learn to hate being oppressed? That won't take long, at any age.

Teaching kids the difference between right and wrong includes learning that what they're putting up with is wrong. Evil triumphs when good men sit around and do nothing. If their parents were sitting idly by while the daily deeds of oppression happen to their friends and family, and their parents taught their kids that they accept it in order to have "peace", they'll blame their parents.

If foreigners were grabbing land your neighbors called home and oppressing you until your number came up, if they openly admitted they were engaging in economic warfare on you, if you had to raise your kids in a world with foreign military pointing guns at them on the way home from school, what would you teach your kids? I'd make sure they know what their rights are, a prerequisite to actually knowing the difference between right and wrong.

This is a good acid test to show what we really think of liberty. Give me an example of any civil liberty we hold dear in the US and Israel infringes on it. Like roads and settlements shouldn't be segregated into this but not that, liberty shouldn't be trashed by tyrannical states either. And should you choose to engage in this process with me where we run through all the examples of liberty we're both familiar with, in turn you can explain how Americans were going through the same things Palestinians are and even worse and thus that's why Thomas Jefferson was exclusively right to hate what his countrymen were putting up with enough to decide there'd be a lot of dead Englishmen lying around.

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Hmmmm..... I'm not sure your comparison entirely holds water, Yamato.

The American settlers broke away from English colonial domination, but I don't recall them teaching 5-6 year olds to actually HATE the English, and to exterminate them.

I wonder if a better example might be the situation of the Native Americans ? They surely have massive grounds for discontent against European settlers. However, I don't hear about their children being taught to shoot modern-day Americans.

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Hmmmm..... I'm not sure your comparison entirely holds water, Yamato.

The American settlers broke away from English colonial domination, but I don't recall them teaching 5-6 year olds to actually HATE the English, and to exterminate them.

So killing without hate is okay and talking about killing with hate is not. That's a strange way of seeing right from wrong here I'm afraid.

I wonder if a better example might be the situation of the Native Americans ? They surely have massive grounds for discontent against European settlers. However, I don't hear about their children being taught to shoot modern-day Americans.

That might be the better example because they suffered real oppression the colonists never did. They surely had discontent. But things that happened hundreds of years ago or generations ago by people who are not us, is not an entitlement for others to do it today. If the fed gov has an obligation to pay for the consequences of America's European predecessors, it doesn't pay Israel to create the same consequences, it should pay what it's responsible for, not ignore that and make Americans responsible for foreign messes that are none of its business.

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So killing without hate is okay and talking about killing with hate is not. That's a strange way of seeing right from wrong here I'm afraid.

What ?? We're talking about brainwashing children into hatred Yamato. What are YOU talking about ?

That might be the better example because they suffered real oppression the colonists never did. They surely had discontent. But things that happened hundreds of years ago or generations ago by people who are not us, is not an entitlement for others to do it today. If the fed gov has an obligation to pay for the consequences of America's European predecessors, it doesn't pay Israel to create the same consequences, it should pay what it's responsible for, not ignore that and make Americans responsible for foreign messes that are none of its business.

I find your posts difficult to understand. America hasn't paid Israel "to create the same consequences". America gave aid to Israel; initially as a developing nation (and probably in sympathy over the holocaust), and then - from 1973 onwards - to act as a bulwark against Soviet influence in the region.

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What ?? We're talking about brainwashing children into hatred Yamato. What are YOU talking about ?

I find your posts difficult to understand. America hasn't paid Israel "to create the same consequences". America gave aid to Israel; initially as a developing nation (and probably in sympathy over the holocaust), and then - from 1973 onwards - to act as a bulwark against Soviet influence in the region.

I'm very happy to know that I'm not the only one who has trouble understanding some of Yam's points. They seem to make assumptions as a base to begin from and I often don't get it.

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What ?? We're talking about brainwashing children into hatred Yamato. What are YOU talking about ?

I find your posts difficult to understand. America hasn't paid Israel "to create the same consequences". America gave aid to Israel; initially as a developing nation (and probably in sympathy over the holocaust), and then - from 1973 onwards - to act as a bulwark against Soviet influence in the region.

What? So now we spin to killing without brainwashing kids is fine, but brainwashing kids without killing is not? All kids are brainwashed by parents. It's the quality of the wash that makes the difference. And you don't like this scent. You've been brainwashed by Zionist nonsense and you're not even six years old. What's the difference there? You're old enough to know better.

Israel has created the same consequences, the denial of human rights and humanity. The genocide of Palestine. Get your head on your neck man it's painful having to repeat the facts and then prove them in your face, and then.

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I'm very happy to know that I'm not the only one who has trouble understanding some of Yam's points. They seem to make assumptions as a base to begin from and I often don't get it.

Genocide is genocide, dude. That's what I'm talking about. First you need a dictionary so you can even get the definition of the word right, and then you need a map to to prove it. You've been handed the facts so many times you return every day with this demented or disingenuous Zionist amnesia.

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How do you prove genocide with a map ?

How does Zionist amnesia differ from regular amnesia ?

Is that... like... you build settlements, but then forget where you left them ?

You go out each day and attempt to oppress the Panamanians ?

You frequently demand that Israel is a Jewish Nation, with Johannesburg as its capital ?

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Genocide is genocide, dude. That's what I'm talking about. First you need a dictionary so you can even get the definition of the word right, and then you need a map to to prove it. You've been handed the facts so many times you return every day with this demented or disingenuous Zionist amnesia.

I see. Well, being an "old timer" I seem to recall a time when the Nazis exterminated like rats, about 6 million human beings in gas chambers - then burned their bodies in industrial type ovens - with the specific intent of completely removing their kind from the earth. When I was learning of this it was specifically called "GENOCIDE". The definition that those kind, helpful and completely unbiased folks at the UN created doesn't much agree with that tidbit I learned 40 years ago. So you call someone with hurt feelings a victim and I'll call what's happening in Israel genocide when you can produce bodies or graves en mass. No one in any way at any time has ever attempted much less perpetuated a genocide on Palestinians. Those who tell that lie just make themselves appear foolish.

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I see. Well, being an "old timer" I seem to recall a time when the Nazis exterminated like rats, about 6 million human beings in gas chambers

Being a student of history, I seem to recall that that number was closer to 12 million, with 6 million gypsies, Catholics, Communists, gays, disabled making up the numbers.

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Look, I don't like being this guy.

I see Yammy's point. In a sense of how people think of morality.

It's not like Israel has gone about things entirely above table, and the US always siding w/ Israel regardless of how business is conducted makes everyone look bad.

Is Palestine guiltless? Hell no

Is Israel guiltless? Hell no

Is anyone who's profited off the wars in the area going on? Again, Hell no

Now personally, I don't worry about things like that, I figure war's war, bad things happen and that's how it is. And further more we'd (U.S., Europe, etc) would be stupid to not profit from it because its going to be going on anyways.

Ultimately it's two groups of people who feel like they have right to the land and the rules. As to who's right?

I'd say it's whoever's left standing at the end.

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How do you prove genocide with a map ?

How does Zionist amnesia differ from regular amnesia ?

Is that... like... you build settlements, but then forget where you left them ?

You go out each day and attempt to oppress the Panamanians ?

You frequently demand that Israel is a Jewish Nation, with Johannesburg as its capital ?

Frequently what? Excuse me, I've never demanded that Israel is a Jewish nation, I don't even know what that would mean if I said it, and yet you'd like everyone to believe that you're a new poster who just showed up a few months ago. So what posts are you talking about?

How do I see genocide on a map? How do you not?

FourMaps.jpg

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I see. Well, being an "old timer" I seem to recall a time when the Nazis exterminated like rats, about 6 million human beings in gas chambers - then burned their bodies in industrial type ovens - with the specific intent of completely removing their kind from the earth. When I was learning of this it was specifically called "GENOCIDE". The definition that those kind, helpful and completely unbiased folks at the UN created doesn't much agree with that tidbit I learned 40 years ago. So you call someone with hurt feelings a victim and I'll call what's happening in Israel genocide when you can produce bodies or graves en mass. No one in any way at any time has ever attempted much less perpetuated a genocide on Palestinians. Those who tell that lie just make themselves appear foolish.

The Nazis were Germans right? So where's the justice at? It's in Palestine. How convenient for all those Nazis the US became fast friends with in 1945. No crocodile tears from you Jew annihilating Christian Zionists about that. Just export the problem somewhere else and then use it as a sleazy excuse for more of the same. It was specifically called The Holocaust, and it's not the only event in the world that meets the dictionary definition of the word GENOCIDE.

As if six million Jews had to die first before it reaches a level where you even start to give a ****. The take home you should have learned from the Holocaust is "NEVER AGAIN". Appeasing Zionism with "well I don't see six million Palestinian corpses yet" shows you haven't learned any such lesson. And you're the last person to rely on preventing the next one. In fact you're drooling at the bit for that to happen and jamming as many Jews into the new furnace as you can before God lights the fuse.

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The Nazis were Germans right? So where's the justice at? It's in Palestine. How convenient for all those Nazis the US became fast friends with in 1945. No crocodile tears from you Jew annihilating Christian Zionists about that. Just export the problem somewhere else and then use it as a sleazy excuse for more of the same. It was specifically called The Holocaust, and it's not the only event in the world that meets the dictionary definition of the word GENOCIDE.

As if six million Jews had to die first before it reaches a level where you even start to give a ****. The take home you should have learned from the Holocaust is "NEVER AGAIN". Appeasing Zionism with "well I don't see six million Palestinian corpses yet" shows you haven't learned any such lesson. And you're the last person to rely on preventing the next one. In fact you're drooling at the bit for that to happen and jamming as many Jews into the new furnace as you can before God lights the fuse.

Lots of indignant (as well as irrelevant) prose. You and those like you can continue hating and disagreeing with the UN partition plan forever and it will never change a thing. The Jews are home in Palestine - they call it Israel. The map you showed is also a handy reminder for the Arab nations what happens when you try to murder Jews these days - it's a profitless venture and shouldn't be tried any longer.

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Posted (edited)

Frequently what? Excuse me, I've never demanded that Israel is a Jewish nation, I don't even know what that would mean if I said it, and yet you'd like everyone to believe that you're a new poster who just showed up a few months ago. So what posts are you talking about?

How do I see genocide on a map? How do you not?

FourMaps.jpg

Yamoto... the three 'imaginary' comments about "Zionist Amnesia" where NOT quoting you, but where suppositions to illustrate the idiocy of that phrase. I thought this was obvious from the context. If not, then I apologise.

Thank you for the map. I have modified it to strip out the propaganda terms, and produced it below for your edification.

post-146395-0-94829900-1399799269_thumb.

Oooops... it's come out all tiny. Ummm... if you click on it, it should expand so that you can read it.

That map doesn't show genocide, because it is not a population map. It is a geopolitical map. Actually, its a complete unscientific muddle, with frame 1 showing jewish settlements, but NOT arab settlements, implying that the whole of Palestine was literally "Arab owned", which was most definately not the case. Frame 2 is a pure political map based on the UN partition plan, and who KNOWS what frames 3 and 4 are supposed to show. Formal land ownership ? Political boundaries ? I'd love to know the source of that frame.

Edited by RoofGardener

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Hi Yamato, the thread is about children being brainwashed but I don't understand why you have brought Israel into the discussion ,what makes you hate the Israel'is so much,have they done something to you personally.I'm not an Israeli sympathiser but neither am I an Arab lover.If a foreign national is friendly towards me I reciprocate,

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Hi Yamato, the thread is about children being brainwashed but I don't understand why you have brought Israel into the discussion ,what makes you hate the Israel'is so much,have they done something to you personally.I'm not an Israeli sympathiser but neither am I an Arab lover.If a foreign national is friendly towards me I reciprocate,

He brought Israel in because as far as he's concerned it's Israel's fault the Palestinians are brainwashing their kids to hate Israelis.

Wasn't there that business of a kid's TV show mascot getting killed by the Israelis a few years back? You know, they spun a story about the character getting killed and having to be replaced etc.Yeah, they're not indoctrinating the kids at all - nooo....

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Posted (edited)

He brought Israel in because as far as he's concerned it's Israel's fault the Palestinians are brainwashing their kids to hate Israelis.

Wasn't there that business of a kid's TV show mascot getting killed by the Israelis a few years back? You know, they spun a story about the character getting killed and having to be replaced etc.Yeah, they're not indoctrinating the kids at all - nooo....

To be teaching kindergarten aged children to hate and see Jews as less than human all the while speaking of peace is an obvious strategy for continued conflict after gaining whatever concessions may be available. Bibi seems to crumble when he gets in a jam with US presidents. Netanyahu has done this now both times he has been PM. I'm not sure exactly how much leverage Obama has over him but he'd better watch his backside - Naftali Bennet is waiting in the wings and he is what Netanyahu was..one upon a time.

Repaired some cerebro-vascular flatulence.

Edited by and then
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Posted (edited)

Hi Yamato, the thread is about children being brainwashed but I don't understand why you have brought Israel into the discussion ,what makes you hate the Israel'is so much,have they done something to you personally.I'm not an Israeli sympathiser but neither am I an Arab lover.If a foreign national is friendly towards me I reciprocate,

Spud,

So if it doesn't affect me personally, love or hate, why do I care, right? I don't hate the Israelis exactly like I don't hate the Americans when I have plenty of criticism for the US government in kind. You need to understand that difference up front if you're going to make sense of my posts moving forward. Where love and hate do matter as this is concerned, I hate tyrannical states oppressing people who have the same rights that you and I do.

Fighting for your rights isn't brainwashing but maybe it looks like it is until you have to fight for your own. If there's evidence that a motivated Palestinian child invokes Muhammad or Allah or Saladin in their rant, is that what makes it brainwashing? If fighting over ethnic differences, and religious differences, and cultural differences were all this was about, then I could understand you not understanding why I brought up Israel. But you make my point for me, you're not being oppressed by the regime in Israel because you're not a Palestinian parent. Settlers and soldiers and bureaucrats and elected officials from Israel aren't oppressing you. If they were and you didn't fight back, you'd die oppressed and unfortunately wouldn't reap the benefits of others who lived on and did so in your wake. Or maybe you'd be lucky enough to live to see the day, having sat around the whole time while others did the fighting for you, and you'd welcome the change regardless. Yet you wouldn't understand why someone like me who lives thousands of miles away from you would care about you.

You were oppressing us with tea taxes once upon a time and we decided what to do with you. Were we wrong? Were we wrong because it was England who was oppressing us and so therefore we hated the English? You kept saying the states were English colonies and we had to say loudly enough that no, no they weren't. England was trying to keep up with the other colonial Joneses, but being English was as incidental to that as being Jewish is here. To the oppressors, that's all they seem to focus on. The difference between a Jew and an Arab doesn't mean jack to me. Does it to you? Do States imposing racial requirements of their populations and then treating other races and ethnicities and nationals with a double standard represent your values? I hope not, or else you haven't learned much about human rights since King George III. British ancestors didn't get their rights because they happened to be English gentlemen. They just protected those rights for English gentlemen to the exclusion of everyone else. The error in doing that should have been your take home message that we can't just botch as soon as it doesn't apply to us personally.

It's madness to keep serving these petty bigoted differences up as the premise of one's argument to be the basis for continuing oppression, therefore using them as a basis for fighting that oppression is, at worst, indistinct in that logic. They're all human beings equally endowed, they should both be treated as such by the powers controlling them. Regardless of the host of people on both sides of the conflict who may think differently. That's what I believe. Do you?

propaganda-came-from-the-british-as-well-this-1774-print-by-philip-dawe-depicted-the-tarring-and-feathering-of-boston-commissioner-of-customs-john-malcom-by-the-revolutionaries-under-the-liberty-tree.jpg

If I wanted to reproduce the same nightmarish results (that we can bring endless snippets and soundbytes of to the board from palwatch or zionistwatch et al.) anywhere else on earth with any group of people under the sun, Israel's policy towards Palestinians would be a clinic for how to do it. It's just like the IRA and the UK, religious and other incidental differences get the dander up. But it doesn't serve as some methodology for determining right and wrong. It doesn't legitimize keeping Ireland in an economic sarcophagus because according to England "the Irish" become the guilty party both in rhetoric and in policy. I wouldn't support any such nonsense out of England for one minute, or anywhere else, why should I do it when it comes to Israel? Have a single standard that's good enough for everyone, Spud. It's not that difficult.

Edited by Yamato
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Yamoto... the three 'imaginary' comments about "Zionist Amnesia" where NOT quoting you, but where suppositions to illustrate the idiocy of that phrase. I thought this was obvious from the context. If not, then I apologise.

Thank you for the map. I have modified it to strip out the propaganda terms, and produced it below for your edification.

post-146395-0-94829900-1399799269_thumb.

Oooops... it's come out all tiny. Ummm... if you click on it, it should expand so that you can read it.

That map doesn't show genocide, because it is not a population map. It is a geopolitical map. Actually, its a complete unscientific muddle, with frame 1 showing jewish settlements, but NOT arab settlements, implying that the whole of Palestine was literally "Arab owned", which was most definately not the case. Frame 2 is a pure political map based on the UN partition plan, and who KNOWS what frames 3 and 4 are supposed to show. Formal land ownership ? Political boundaries ? I'd love to know the source of that frame.

Unfortunately the map does show genocide when Genocide is the systematic destruction of all or part of a racial, ethnic, religious or national group.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocide

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Spud,

So if it doesn't affect me personally, love or hate, why do I care, right? I don't hate the Israelis exactly like I don't hate the Americans when I have plenty of criticism for the US government in kind. You need to understand that difference up front if you're going to make sense of my posts moving forward. Where love and hate do matter as this is concerned, I hate tyrannical states oppressing people who have the same rights that you and I do.

Fighting for your rights isn't brainwashing but maybe it looks like it is until you have to fight for your own. If there's evidence that a motivated Palestinian child invokes Muhammad or Allah or Saladin in their rant, is that what makes it brainwashing? If fighting over ethnic differences, and religious differences, and cultural differences were all this was about, then I could understand you not understanding why I brought up Israel. But you make my point for me, you're not being oppressed by the regime in Israel because you're not a Palestinian parent. Settlers and soldiers and bureaucrats and elected officials from Israel aren't oppressing you. If they were and you didn't fight back, you'd die oppressed and unfortunately wouldn't reap the benefits of others who lived on and did so in your wake. Or maybe you'd be lucky enough to live to see the day, having sat around the whole time while others did the fighting for you, and you'd welcome the change regardless. Yet you wouldn't understand why someone like me who lives thousands of miles away from you would care about you.

You were oppressing us with tea taxes once upon a time and we decided what to do with you. Were we wrong? Were we wrong because it was England who was oppressing us and so therefore we hated the English? You kept saying the states were English colonies and we had to say loudly enough that no, no they weren't. England was trying to keep up with the other colonial Joneses, but being English was as incidental to that as being Jewish is here. To the oppressors, that's all they seem to focus on. The difference between a Jew and an Arab doesn't mean jack to me. Does it to you? Do States imposing racial requirements of their populations and then treating other races and ethnicities and nationals with a double standard represent your values? I hope not, or else you haven't learned much about human rights since King George III. British ancestors didn't get their rights because they happened to be English gentlemen. They just protected those rights for English gentlemen to the exclusion of everyone else. The error in doing that should have been your take home message that we can't just botch as soon as it doesn't apply to us personally.

It's madness to keep serving these petty bigoted differences up as the premise of one's argument to be the basis for continuing oppression, therefore using them as a basis for fighting that oppression is, at worst, indistinct in that logic. They're all human beings equally endowed, they should both be treated as such by the powers controlling them. Regardless of the host of people on both sides of the conflict who may think differently. That's what I believe. Do you?

propaganda-came-from-the-british-as-well-this-1774-print-by-philip-dawe-depicted-the-tarring-and-feathering-of-boston-commissioner-of-customs-john-malcom-by-the-revolutionaries-under-the-liberty-tree.jpg

If I wanted to reproduce the same nightmarish results (that we can bring endless snippets and soundbytes of to the board from palwatch or zionistwatch et al.) anywhere else on earth with any group of people under the sun, Israel's policy towards Palestinians would be a clinic for how to do it. It's just like the IRA and the UK, religious and other incidental differences get the dander up. But it doesn't serve as some methodology for determining right and wrong. It doesn't legitimize keeping Ireland in an economic sarcophagus because according to England "the Irish" become the guilty party both in rhetoric and in policy. I wouldn't support any such nonsense out of England for one minute, or anywhere else, why should I do it when it comes to Israel? Have a single standard that's good enough for everyone, Spud. It's not that difficult.

ok Yam, thanks for the history lesson, a couple of hundred years ago the Brits were the biggest villains on the planet,but now thats moved on.I don't like oppression any more than you do,but in a lot of cases its the Countries leaders that are suppressing their own people and feeding them b.s. as in China, Nth Korea ,Russia and a lot more, and there is nothing we can do about it.cheers.
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