Singing songs of worship in church

[GoldenWolf]

Has anybody noticed, that when people sing songs of worship in church, they raise their hands and move them back and forth, it looks like flames, it makes me think of hellfire, isn't lucifer (the preacher) the one who reigns in hell?

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2 Corinthians 4:4

Luke 12:49

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[+Paranoid Android]

In the Pentacostal/Charismatic movement, this is how people tend to worship. Not all churches are like that, however. The churches I've generally been to, people just stand there and sing along to the music.

With that said, I'm not sure there's a "right" or "wrong" way to sing worship songs. Putting your hands in the air can be viewed simply as an expression of love towards God (just because it reminds you of fire, doesn't mean they're all bound for hell). Every music genre has its own style of "worship". Watch footage of a rock concert and see all the hands waving in the air and heads banging in rhythm with the drums, for example. If it's the right concert, you might even see me in the crowd there somewhere

Edited May 8, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[GoldenWolf]

In the Pentacostal/Charismatic movement, this is how people tend to worship. Not all churches are like that, however. The churches I've generally been to, people just stand there and sing along to the music.

With that said, I'm not sure there's a "right" or "wrong" way to sing worship songs. Putting your hands in the air can be viewed simply as an expression of love towards God (just because it reminds you of fire, doesn't mean they're all bound for hell). Every music genre has its own style of "worship". Watch footage of a rock concert and see all the hands waving in the air and heads banging in rhythm with the drums, for example. If it's the right concert, you might even see me in the crowd there somewhere

Have you ever been to a live a concert with metallica, we know they aren't exactly pro-god, think of the song creeping death.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[+Paranoid Android]

Have you ever been to a live a concert with metallica, we know they aren't exactly pro-god, think of the song creeping death.

Unfortunately not. I've been to Fear Factory, Korn, Slipknot, Cradle of Filth, Strapping Young Lad, The Tea Party, Rage Against the Machine, Chubby Checker, and several others, but never Metallica. Does a band have to have a pro-God agenda for a Christian to listen to it or attend their gigs?

Though admittedly, I probably wouldn't go to Cradle of Filth again. Though I still like their music, their nun T-shirt turned me off them completely.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Paranoid Android

[GoldenWolf]

Unfortunately not. I've been to Fear Factory, Korn, Slipknot, Cradle of Filth, Strapping Young Lad, The Tea Party, Rage Against the Machine, Chubby Checker, and several others, but never Metallica. Does a band have to have a pro-God agenda for a Christian to listen to it or attend their gigs?

Though admittedly, I probably wouldn't go to Cradle of Filth again. Though I still like their music, their nun T-shirt turned me off them completely.

The point I am making is fire isn't really love per say, it's anger, chaos. Water would be love, water makes things grow, fire destroys stuff. Fire needs be properly channeled.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[+Paranoid Android]

The point I am making is fire isn't really love per say, it's anger. Water would be love, water makes things grow, fire destroys stuff.

And I'm saying that just because you perceive it as fire doesn't make it so. Nor is waving your arms in the air typical of a church worship service. Some churches do indeed do this, mostly of the Charismatic churches that place an (in my opinion) overly important focus on "feelings", but it's by no means universal among churches. But I don't think there really is a right or wrong way to sing to God, as long as your heart's in the right place.

[+DieChecker]

Has anybody noticed, that when people sing songs of worship in church, they raise their hands and move them back and forth, it looks like flames, it makes me think of hellfire, isn't lucifer (the preacher) the one who reigns in hell?

That is an interesting way of looking at it.

God is the Creator of fire. Fire itself is not evil. Actually fire is in the Pit/Hell/LakeOfFire to be a punishment to Satan, not as something there for him to use.

Fire, especially in the form of a candle flame, represents both the Holy Spirit and light. The sources of these symbols derive from the Bible; for example from the tongues of fire that symbolized the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and from Jesus' description of his followers as the light of the world; or God is a consuming fire found in Hebrews 12.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_symbolism

In reality, it is supposed to be people reaching out to God. Like a child does to a parent. The swaying is just a result of music playing.

Many people at my church (Which is a charismatic church) raise their hands, but don't move them at all. There are also people who hop about, some that wave ribbons, some that fall to their knees, some that holler out loud, some that even fall to the floor and convulse. But, those are much rarer.

The point I am making is fire isn't really love per say, it's anger. Water would be love, water makes things grow, fire destroys stuff.

I think that is an opinion. Fire is cleansing also, and purifying, and light.

[spacecowboy342]

Yeah, I think either fire or water could destroy or purify depending on how it's used

[GoldenWolf]

I think that is an opinion. Fire is cleansing also, and purifying, and light.

The thing of it is, with fire, once it has destroyed something it is destroyed, there really is no rebirth, like a burned down house, humans are like that too. Think of people who suffer from Bi-polar disorder and Post traumatic stress disorder and severe anxiety disorder.

We are not phoenix's, we are human beings.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[+DieChecker]

The thing of it is, with fire, once it has destroyed something it is destroyed, there really is no rebirth, like a burned down house, humans are like that too. Think of people who suffer from Bi-polar disorder and Post traumatic stress disorder and severe anxiety disorder.

We are not phoenix's, we are human beings.

You do know that one of the major tenets of Christianity is Rebirth and Resurrection, right? Rebirth, or Reborn, or Born Again... Dying to your old self and being reborn as one of God's followers. Jesus died and was resurrected. The symbolism is the same as the Pheonix.

The fire I'm speaking about is a spiritual fire that burns away the old to make way for the new. It destroys the bad, so that the good may flourish.

If you are talking about fire in reference to the Devil, then you clearly are not talking about physical everyday fire......

[GoldenWolf]

You do know that one of the major tenets of Christianity is Rebirth and Resurrection, right? Rebirth, or Reborn, or Born Again... Dying to your old self and being reborn as one of God's followers. Jesus died and was resurrected. The symbolism is the same as the Pheonix.

The fire I'm speaking about is a spiritual fire that burns away the old to make way for the new. It destroys the bad, so that the good may flourish.

If you are talking about fire in reference to the Devil, then you clearly are not talking about physical everyday fire......

Fire is Fire, whether spiritual, physical, or emotional, it destroys the good and the bad leaving nothing in it's wake but emptiness.

We aren't phoenix's, we are humans, we shouldn't let our ego's get in the way of common sense.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[Davros of Skaro]

Open raised arm praise is called "Orante/Orans", and was used by early Christians.

http://www.jesuswalk.com/christian-symbols/orante.htm

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orans

This gesture can be found in ancient Roman art, and coinage too.

[GoldenWolf]

Preachers at churches should notice this.

[Purplos]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Fire_ecology

Fire is necessary for rebirth in some instances in the natural world.

This topic has so many branches. Very scattered and mostly all a matter of opinion.

When people wave their hands in the air at a sporting event or something, does that mean they're worshiping satan or something too?

Edited May 8, 2014 by Purplos

[+Paranoid Android]

Jesus is said to be coming to "baptise with the Holy Spirit AND with fire" (Matthew 3:11), so perhaps there is something to the idea of fire as a purifier, refining us, removing the impurities.

[Davros of Skaro]

Preachers at churches should notice this.

Preachers at churches should notice this.

Well the open, and raised arm gesture is very old.The swaying was probably a way to compete with that Devil's music Rock-n-Roll?

Children open raise their arms to get picked up by it's parents.Christians raise their arms to get picked up by their Sky Daddy.

We have the benefit to be able to think of other dimensions.Ancient Man thought that besides dreams the Clouds, and outer Space was the Heavens.

[Davros of Skaro]

Jesus is said to be coming to "baptise with the Holy Spirit AND with fire" (Matthew 3:11), so perhaps there is something to the idea of fire as a purifier, refining us, removing the impurities.

That idea is in the Quran.It's for Jews, Christians, and lazy with prayer Muslims.HA!

[GoldenWolf]

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Fire_ecology

Fire is necessary for rebirth in some instances in the natural world.

This topic has so many branches. Very scattered and mostly all a matter of opinion.

When people wave their hands in the air at a sporting event or something, does that mean they're worshiping satan or something too?

Ah, but for the most part, that is more less cheering, the thing of it is, with the spiritual fire of a church, it's pretty much just a battle cry, the spirit of a conqueror. We have so many hellfire and damnation preachers from all religions going around terrorizing people trying to subdue people to their religion, really doing nothing more spewing out hate, not giving any morale, but destroying others, I call it the flames of madness (like the saying I'm burning up).

Flaming is in everyday life also, not just the internet. Hellfire and damnation preachers, and drill sergeants are a perfect example. The Westoro Baptist Church and Landover Baptist Forums (they are not satire) are another example. Fire comes out of their mouths.

Flaming is a hostile and insulting interaction between Internet users, often involving the use of profanity.

Flaming usually occurs in the social context of an Internet forum, Internet Relay Chat (IRC), Usenet, by e-mail, game servers such as Xbox Live or PlayStation Network, and on video-sharing websites. It is frequently the result of the discussion of heated real-world issues such as politics, religion, and philosophy, or of issues that polarize sub-populations, but can also be provoked by seemingly trivial differences.

Deliberate flaming, as opposed to flaming as a result of emotional discussions, is carried out by individuals known as flamers, who are specifically motivated to incite flaming. These users specialize in flaming and target specific aspects of a controversial conversation. Some websites even cater to flamers and trolls, by allowing them a free environment, such as Flame-Wars forum.

Edited May 8, 2014 by Mystic Crusader

[Frank Merton]

I was browsing a book on the good religion does written by an atheist (at least he says he is) and one of the items was a sense of community brought about by common belief and common worship, especially singing or chanting. Further, if the songs are pleasant and melodious and the words are soft and loving and uplifting and tolerance-enhancing, the songs can do a great deal of good.

My reaction is kinda it all depends. A lot of songs and chants do not meet that sort of criteria and are divisive and hate inducing and self-loathing too. Also, we can get the benefit of such things without the religious part of it.

[spacecowboy342]

I still get chills when Amazing Grace is played. Too many family members buried to it

[+and-then]

The thing of it is, with fire, once it has destroyed something it is destroyed, there really is no rebirth, like a burned down house, humans are like that too. Think of people who suffer from Bi-polar disorder and Post traumatic stress disorder and severe anxiety disorder.

We are not phoenix's, we are human beings.

With all due respect Mystic - have you ever met or known an alcoholic that "found God" so to speak? The turnabout can be absolutely astounding. The same goes for many who are transformed by their experience of coming to faith in God - whether they were addicted and hopeless or not. Utterly ruined individuals who forgave others and in so doing came alive again.

[Frank Merton]

With all due respect Mystic - have you ever met or known an alcoholic that "found God" so to speak? The turnabout can be absolutely astounding. The same goes for many who are transformed by their experience of coming to faith in God - whether they were addicted and hopeless or not. Utterly ruined individuals who forgave others and in so doing came alive again.

This does seem to confirm Marx's infamous statement that religion is an opium for the masses. I have known a few alcoholics who found marijuana, a far less destructive substance.

I still get chills when Amazing Grace is played. Too many family members buried to it

It's a nice tune.

[GoldenWolf]

I still get chills when Amazing Grace is played. Too many family members buried to it

I hear that song, I think of millions of people who have died by being inspired by the bible(s)

[Q-C]

Looking out over a sea of gently swaying bodies and waving arms looks more like the effect of wind than fire to me.

[GoldenWolf]

With all due respect Mystic - have you ever met or known an alcoholic that "found God" so to speak? The turnabout can be absolutely astounding. The same goes for many who are transformed by their experience of coming to faith in God - whether they were addicted and hopeless or not. Utterly ruined individuals who forgave others and in so doing came alive again.

They forfeit their souls though, there are many different healing techniques, that don't require you to forfeit your soul. Every person is unique, to become a mirror for someone is just plain wrong.