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Erikl

Birds are Dinosaurs thread

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Noob, you have raised more questions in my mind. In a religious point of view your answers were satisfying, yet I continuously seek more information so here goes.

1-As the first response to my questions, you talk about the timelessness of god, If god is timeless why would there be an end to our successful specie? Also, would that mean that to god, humans are a common creation, something god can create in six days, with some ease?

2-If all humans are from the same "Genesis" couple, wouldn't the gene pool degenerate after the second generation, creating a high number of trisomy and other genetic birth defects? (Which would be the opposite of the Darwinian point of view where each new generation is better then the last, due to the diversity of genes and the reproduction of the best elements )

3-I think this is a point we can relate, humanity has evolved to survive in it environment.

4-1. By flood, do you mean Noah's flood?

4-2. Why would all the dinosaurs live in the deepest jungles of Africa, if at first the dinosaurs lived in a continent called Pangea, where all the modern continent where bundled together? Humanity could only appear after the dinosaurs disappeared due to the fact that mammals were hunted, so they didn't evolve any hunter skills (which lead to more complex thinking) during that time.

There is a scientific answer to what happend to the dinosaurs, first a ratter large meteorite hits the earth raising quite a big amount of dust in the air, blocking out the sun. This leads to a series of events, not enough plants for the bigger herbivores, then the carnivores are left with only a few scraps of food so they die off too. Only the smaller dinosaurs could survive, know as the raptor specie today, also the small warm blooded mammals were able to avoid being wiped out.

***

-"Non-living" chemical are called simply called chemical, if a "chemical" is considered living it's called Biological.

-the process is called  photosynthesis, getting energy from the transformation of the light and carbon.

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1. Look at what we have done to the earth. The only thing humans have been "successful" at is destroying our planet and each other. If I was God, and saw my creations doing this, I'd wipe out humanity in heart beat. As far as being a common creation, that is not so. He set humans apart, hence why man was created last. Man was created to look over the rest of nature, and man is God's favorite creation, I mean man was created in his image. But since you don't believe in God, and since I can't force you to change your opinion, I don't expect you to. All I can do is present my beliefs.

2. Let me answer that question with a question: If evolution is true, the how did any species survive? I mean two individuals had to have had the same mutations in order to have offspring, and since there where only 2 parents, their gene pool would have degenrated as well. It's a good question, and I don't have all the answers, but then again, I never said I did and neither does science.

3. Glad to see we agree! thumbsup.gif

4-1. Yes

4-2. As far as living in Africa, that's just my personal guess, I don't really know. With the metor killing off the dinos, I don't beleive it. I read a few articles and saw a few speciials on the Discovery Channel which prove this theory false. I can't remember them right off the top of my head, but I beleive one of the arguements was as to the specificity of the exstinction. Something about how certain species that supposedly lived through it didn't quite add up. I'll look into it more.

photosynthesis is not the process of taking "chemicals" and making them into "biological", living things. All that is happening is that light is being transformed into carbon, like you said, but let's not for get that this is happening inside of a "living" plant. I'd like to see scientists take a petri dish filled with random chemicals and then try and create life in it.

Edited by Noob Siabot

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Two is as bad as one, it's the lonesliest number since number 1

According to the philosophy of evolution, not a couple but a group of individual as to gain the same mutation in order to make an successful evolution.

Success

Humanity is the only creation of god able to create complex objects and tool, humanity is inlighten as a whole, humanity is gifted with the most powerful gift in gods arsenal. You would go forward and destroy the work of your creation, the only animal able to ponder on abstract questions.

As god is able to see individual things, as it is omnipotent, would it see couples falling in love, singular sparks of genius, unique uprise. Humanity will not die to the hands of god, it will evolve and die off.

It was a chill month of may

It wasn't quit the impact that killed the dinosaurs it was the ice age, that followed the clouds of dust. It created a form of umbrella blocking out the sun and so killing the plants, other smaller things could survive since they don't need much food to survive.

Let there be light

photosynthesis has been a successful experiment, it's transforming carbon and light together to produce energy, and that was the first step to the creation of a selfsufficent mono-cellular entity.

***

I have my believes and you have yours, as you said, but here's a final question; why aren't the first creation of god in the bible?

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Well, to answer that, you have to look at it this way:

According to the Bible, God created all life. So every form of life was created, and would be free to evolve from there. So the first creations where all fully grown an mature, hence no need for a single-cell organism to evolve into a more complex cell. But this is my opinion. You raise very good and interesting questions, it's nice to see that people actually think in this world instead of just spouting off stuff they don't really know anything about.

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It is a complex game of cards

Maybe it is that we all have a odd and twisted version of god, as creator of life. In that sense i guess there is a "god", a "cosmic" trigger. Some form of series of fortunate events, like serindity only on a incredibly large and complex "model".

In my vision of events humanity is the ultimate form of coincidence, specs of dust in a sea of possibility. In the religious vision Humans are here for an obscure goal, for a mighty creator being. In the end, it's all about possibilities and fractal frequencies.

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If Humans were created by god, who created god?

God needs no creation. He always was. A concept foreign to humans because on our earth, everything must have a beginning, and an end.

Explanation:

Is it unreasonable to say that a being with the ability to create something out of nothing would also have the ability to "never have not been"?

Time is measured by the movement of matter through space. This can be observed in the fact that if every single bit of matter and energy in the universe stopped moving, time, in essence, would be frozen.

Is it unreasonable to say that before matter and space were created, time was a concept that did not exist, because it didn't need to, because the laws applied to this God did not require his existence to end, nor begin.

In contrast, the laws of time applied to we ourselves are thermodynamics, which state energy is running out, ordered matter tends towards a state of indefinite disorder, and that the end of all things will come when the universes energy reaches a zero point. Men were not made to exist infinitely, nor was energy made to exist infinitely, nor was the organized state of matter made to stay organized, therefore, we have been designated laws which govern "time", as well call it.

If Humans do come from a "genesis" couple does it mean that all humans are inbred?

Yes.

But inbreeding used to be a positive thing back when the "Yin" of humanity's genepool was a "Yang".

They came from a genepool that was uncorrupted by fallacy. They began with perfect bodies. Over humankinds life span, we have spread over the earth, adapted, developed true and false thinkings and actions. Genetics have decayed, just as any living thing does. In early days, it was a better practice to marry within your family, to preserve your genes. That is not so with today, and the state of decay we exist in now.

If Humans are created from two sets of genetic background why is there so many genetic diversity?

Actually, all humans share 99.99% of the same exact Genetic code. There are only a few handfuls of genes that account for height, metabolism, organ size, pigmentation, and proportions. It's the combinations of these few genes that make the diversity of the human race.

Try to think how many numbers can be made with a 10 digit number. 1,000,000,000.

One billion.

If our genetic code consists of 3 billion bits of data, imagine how much information we have inside us. The number of data bits we have would be the number 1,

followed by three billion zeros. A number so large I wouldn't fit on this website.

It was also discovered, with our recent advances in genetics, that the entire human genetic lineage can be, and has been, traced back to one original woman. I saw this on the news a few years ago.

So god created the dinosaur and just thought, aw booooring, byebye now.

Actually, the dinosaurs could no longer survive due to the atmospheric conditions after the flood. Imagine if today the whole world was covered in water for a few years. Our change in climate would be dramatic.

It's theorized that before the flood, the atmospheric pressure was so great, it actually forced oxygen directly into the blood stream of all living things, which would allow for the existence of dinosaurs which are hundreds of times bigger than a human. After the flood, they couldn't "breath". Humans also became much smaller, and started living shorter life spans.

The technology for this still exists today. There was a young girl who fell down a well in recent years. When she was brought back up many days later, her feet were black and broken with decay. They put her in a pressurized chamber filled with pure oxygen, and her feet completely regenerated themselves, with the exception of her little toes.

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thanks for the insight, but I already got the information i needed. The mechanism of questions and answers lead me to a satisfying conclusion.

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I had to give my opinions on this even though you're satisfied Chi, you're questions were just so compelling to answer original.gif

You make a very good and interesting aguement, kikuchiyo. Well, to answer your questions:

1.If Humans were created by god, who created god?

2.If Humans do come from a "genesis" couple does it mean that all humans are inbred?

3.If Humans are created from two sets of genetic backround why is there so many genetic diversity?

4.So god created the dinosaur and just thought, aw booooring, byebye now.

1. God is timeless. He's always existed. He has no beginningand no end. This concept is obviously hard to deal with because we are so bound by time and our physical universe.

2.In a sense yes. They've traced the lineage of human (through the emniotic fluid and the placenta) all back to 1 original mother. Plus, when the first humans where on earth, they where all in 1 area, and so there where no dominant or reccesive triats yet. those would develope later.

3.The reason for this diversity is due to the different regions from where people live. In a sense, it's due to horizontal evolution. I mean, the people that first moved to and inhabited asia over a few generations developed an extra layer of fat around their eyes due to the cold environment. People in Africa have darker skin because they live in a hot and very sunny environment.

4.I don't think so. No one (religious or non-religious) would know the answer to this one. My guess would be that the flood (if you believe in it) was responsible or that if there are any left, they would live in the deepest jungles of Africa. I mean, God's not stupid. Could you imagine a T-Rex in modern times? Either we would have killed them all off as trophies or we would all be eaten by dinos.

As far as life being created in the lab, I have yet to see or even hear of any laboratory that has taken a mix of non-living chemicals and created a life.

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#1) IF there was a God, I agree, he wouldn't have been created, he just IS and always WAS. However, for those that don't believe in God, it's the same thing. The universe has always existed, it was never anything, and over a long span of time it just compressed adn formed what we know as our universe. In a sense, our universe could be God considering it has always been, it was never nothing, and it created what we know today.

#2) And this goes to Insight and others as well. The one common woman fact goes back about 20-30 thousand years, however, scientists are NOT saying she was the FIRST woman. They have merely stated that it is the one woman who would have, apparently, a long and strong family tree to put it simply. A dip in the population of the world (ice ages or other reasons) leaves the strong to survive. This one common woman found in many people, but has not yet been proven in ALL of humanity, would have been one of the strong women whose genetics survived the dip in population. But it has NOT yet been proven that all of humanity shares the same lineage to this particular woman.

#3) I think everyone can agree with this one original.gif

#4) There is a space in our galaxy between one of our nine planets, I believe the space occurs between Neptune and Pluto, where scientists seem to feel there is such a large gap that a tenth planet would have been there and there is a lot asteroids circling the ecliptic path they think is the remains of that planet still in it's orbit. Our galaxy has a lot of space debris, asteroids, meteors, this tenth planet could have easily been hit and broke apart. So it's not unusual that a large enough asteroid would have hit our Earth to cause a catastrophe large enough to do away with dinosaurs. They lasted a very long time, humanity isn't even near a tiny percentage of the amount of time dinosaurs existed.

back in ancient times people invented "gods" to explain away what they did not understand, to them the sun rising everyday had to be due to something more powerful becasue in those times they did not have the knowledge needed to understand the idea of space and a solar system, today we still do not understand things such as life and death and therefore, history repeating itsself, we have created a god to explain away what we do not understand because we do not have the knowledge to explain it in any other way, we do however, or some of us anyway, try to further our knowledge and understanding by comming up with ideas to try to explain what we dont know (evolution, big bang), no one just through some wheels on a chair and called it a car, there were ideas that where created first trying to solve the problem at hand

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This I agree with. If the Bible is the book that humanity was to follow as God's words in a sense, then why wasn't it created at the beginning of humanity? Why let thousands of years go by before this book came out? I don't think a God would have purposely caused a creation considered to be of his own form be submitted to limbo in an afterlife forever because the BIBLE wasn't around. And using the sayin that evil put many religions on Earth so that people will find it harder to choose the right religion and follow the right holy book and God is ludacris. At the rate humanity is going, Islam will be the reigning religion within a couple centuries. What will Christians do then? RELIGION has lasted how long? Been considered the way of life for how long? Only in the last couple thousand years has religion become what we know it as today. In a thousand years, what will be the dominant religion? Muslim? Mormon? Pagan? Who knows. With a backdrop of religions as unstable as our humanities, it is more likely that humans just wanted to feel safe in this unknown world we are still ignorant about. And know we've confused ourselves so much, we don't even have a good history that would give us indications whether it was evolution or creationalism that humans are here today.

If Humans are created from two sets of genetic background why is there so many genetic diversity?

Actually, all humans share 99.99% of the same exact Genetic code. There are only a few handfuls of genes that account for height, metabolism, organ size, pigmentation, and proportions. It's the combinations of these few genes that make the diversity of the human race.

Try to think how many numbers can be made with a 10 digit number. 1,000,000,000.

One billion.

If our genetic code consists of 3 billion bits of data, imagine how much information we have inside us. The number of data bits we have would be the number 1,

followed by three billion zeros. A number so large I wouldn't fit on this website.

364576[/snapback]

I'd really like to see your sources on this, it's very interesting.

Edited by firefemme1202

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great post firefemme...

now can someone read it for me tongue.gif

cool.gif

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Very very interesting stuff.

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great post firefemme...

now can someone read it for me  tongue.gif

cool.gif

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yeah I know, if a post is too long I don't even bother reading it! tongue.gif

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Only in the last couple thousand years has religion become what we know it as today. In a thousand years, what will be the dominant religion? Muslim? Mormon? Pagan?

I think itll all go Atheist........

proof of devolution?..............no. just kidding.tongue.gif

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Just wondering

In the case of a timeless god: What is the "value" of humanity, in the eyes of something that have seen millions of years of great beast?- Does it also mean that god creations are something common for it (as being timeless would give It possibility to create endlessly)?

How can we date the year (well the acounted 40 days and 40 nights) of the flood?

According to Lavoisier's work ( Nothing disappears, nothing is created there is only change) can we deduct that god it self can change with time? (whish would explain the lack of "holy" incounters in the past century, as compared to biblical time)

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In the case of a timeless god: What is the "value" of humanity, in the eyes of something that have seen millions of years of great beast?- Does it also mean that god creations are something common for it (as being timeless would give It possibility to create endlessly)?

well, i can answer that, i think. Humans are different from all the other animals in the fact that we have Souls, and they do not. along with that soul comes a sense of right and wrong, a conscience, knowledge of God, ability to keep from sinning if we choose to, ect. anyway, everything created is sacred, 'speical', if you please, because it was created out of God's love, but us humans, the creatures with souls, are 'special-er', as we have chances to please God that the souless do not have avaliable. (that is where us anti-abortionists get all this 'sacred life' stuff, dig?)

Edited by man_in_mudboots

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well if god is timeless it could create countless numbers of "consient" species, right?

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well, i can answer that, i think. Humans are different from all the other animals in the fact that we have Souls, and they do not. along with that soul comes a sense of right and wrong, a conscience, knowledge of God, ability to keep from sinning if we choose to, ect. anyway, everything created is sacred, 'speical', if you please, because it was created out of God's love, but us humans, the creatures with souls, are 'special-er', as we have chances to please God that the souless do not have avaliable. (that is where us anti-abortionists get all this 'sacred life' stuff, dig?)

Now I have to deagree with you on this but I will give you a chance to explain this to me before I state my opinion on this fully. What do you mean by Humans are different from all the other animals in the fact that we have Souls, and they do not. along with that soul comes a sense of right and wrong, a conscience, knowledge of God, ability to keep from sinning if we choose to, ect. because it seems like your saying that animals cant think for themselves or learn to control there actions. Also, how can you say animals dont have souls when you cant even prove if you have one? Whats a "soul" to you? Whats so "speical" about humans? Weres the humens "sense of right and wrong" when they kill/hurt each other for no resin yet other animals only kill when they must inorder to ensure there wellbeing? All together, who said were the only animals with souls out side of humens and the HUMENS that made the "good book"?

Please try to answer so that I can see were your coming form and build and agruement to properly adress this with no mess understandings. :D O.K.? :tu:

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Old thread, I know, but since it has been revived already, here's something on-topic:

WHY did dinosaurs develop feathers? What purpose did they have? They obviously weren't meant for flying, that's for sure.

It could be some kind of mutation, but wouldn't it be limited to one or two species then?

IF most dinosaurs developed feathers, is it possible that other reptiles did too? Cultures like the aztecs worshipped winged serpent-like creatures. Is it possible that Quetzalcoatl really existed then?

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I still hasn't been established with any surety that any species of dinosaurs has feathers. There is an unidentified "fringe" of something in one fossil. Compare this with well devined feathers on Archaeoptryx. Why has there never been clearly defined feathers on any of the hundreds of thousands of dinosaur fossils, yet the are uniformly found in Archaeopteryx fossils? This may just be more wishful thinking by people trying to make dinosaurs more "cute and cuddley".

Edited by draconic chronicler

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Another thing that most people don't realize is that when dinosaurs were starting to supposedly develop feathers and "turn" into birds; real, modern birds had already been around for millions of years, co-existing with dinos. Dinos and Birds are both archosaurs and have many similarities, but believe it or not, there are some expert paleontologists who firmly believe that the true ancestor of the birds was a kind of lightweight, aboreal crocodilian (also Archosaurs), millions of years before the classic, birdlike dinos were coming into being. And there is some strong evidence for this.

But the idea for feather covered dinos, goes along with warm blooded theories, that the feathers were just for insulation.

As for quetzelcoatl, the translation of his name could mean "beautiful flying serpent" as easily as "feathered serpent" for Quetzel, is a colorful bird, and Coatl, is serpent. Therefore this could be the name for just another, universal flying dragon that appear in virtually every world culture. If these universal dragon creatures are living entities, the same Seraphim dragons of the bible, perhaps in earlier times they amused themselves pretending to be Gods in the pagan cultures to receive attention, sacrifices, offerings, etc.

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the first and earliest "bird" was found during the mid-Jurrasic...plenty of time for a simple Ceolyphsis the grow feathers...or evolve....BUt if that never happened, dinosaurs and birds shared a very recent ancestor, so they are still closely related....

As for you saying dinosaurs did not have feathers...i would expect something better from you...its common sense, do you not pay attention to paleo finds? apparently, no...bambiraptor, found with fuzz...new unamed dromaeosaurus and Sinorthosaurus-like dinos in China....Sinovenator...and the most bird-like dinosaur of all...UNENLAGIA!

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As I said in a previous post these do not seem to be true feathers as are clearly seen in archaeopteryx, instead, a possible "fuzz" or "fringe"that do not look like true feathers, but things to keep them warm. You should know there are top scientists that still believe the ancestor of the birds was crocodilian. It deals with bone structures that share greater similarities between the earliest birds and early arboreal crocidilians.

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Unenlagia, caudipteryx...and many, MANY other shows clear definite feathers....Also, no many aboreal crocodilians have been found...in fact, Very Few! Also, you should no that that top paleontologists in that field are in fac, changing their view...as more bird-like dinosaurs are found....

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