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Past civilizations


dakota8595

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Quite a bit actually... There are many - many telltale engineering projects that have altered the terrain in ways that any future civilization would be able to recognize as having been

altered by an intelligent advanced civilization... We have buried untold amounts of garbage that will certainly leave traces for future archaeologists to find and debate...

And yes, a glacier would remove almost all traces... .where it goes... But unless glaciers affect 100% of the Earths land surface, something will survive - somewhere...

Roadways will survive (partially intact) if buried, for an incredibly long time... As will military "hardened sites" such as missile silos, and underground facilities... The Finns have

built a storage facility for nuclear waste that is expected to last for at least 100,000 years... Even if it only lasts for 10% of it's projected life - that is still 10,000 years...

A man created a board game made entirely out of titanium and buried it in the desert for future generations to play... It is expected to last for a very very long time... How long does

titanium last before breaking down?... I don't know but certainly at least 2 or 3 thousand years...

http://www.theverge....e-nevada-desert

The only possible way I could see all traces of us being erased are if the planet itself is severely damaged - such as by a collision with a large astronomical body like the one

theorized to have created our moon... I don't kow what the lower limit on size would be for total "erasure"... but certainly larger than the one thought ot have exterminated the dinosaurs...

And "arrogance" works both ways... perhaps it is arrogant to think that we are not the highest tech civilization in human history (thus far)...

It would indeed be interesting if there were ancient civilizations with technology equivalent, comparable, or superior to our current technology, but until we find evidence of such a civilization, I think it just makes for fun stories. With our current knowledge of geology and radiocarbon dating, we would be able to find evidence of such a proposed cataclysmic event. I agree with Taun that it would take a lot to wipe out a modern civilization enough to leave the Earth blank for others to find of us. Even then, if something did find Earth, they should have the technology to discover what happened to the planet and eventually find some sort of evidence of us. Hopefully they don't just find a Neanderthal skeleton and assume that Neanderthal was the extent of human civilization :P

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Unless you are referring to Dwarka, an actual archaeological site that sank due to tectonic action in the late Medeival period, no city has been found off India's coast.

There is no "city" found off the coast of Japan, either.

Harte

Well I saw a programme on it and read stuff online about it several years ago - just found another piece on it (not the one I read hasting to add) - http://redicecreations.com/article.php?id=21958 (Japaneses Sunken 'City' - Town , Village, Hamlet...)

Again, without finding the said article, I just stumbled upon this and mentions 2x Indian locations - http://blog.world-mysteries.com/mystic-places/ancient-cities-and-megalithic-sites-underwater/ and interestingly several other locations around the world (Cuba)

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Well I saw a programme on it and read stuff online about it several years ago - just found another piece on it (not the one I read hasting to add) - http://redicecreatio...le.php?id=21958 (Japaneses Sunken 'City' - Town , Village, Hamlet...)

Again, without finding the said article, I just stumbled upon this and mentions 2x Indian locations - http://blog.world-my...tes-underwater/ and interestingly several other locations around the world (Cuba)

Odd that your link (2nd one) doesn't even mention Dwarka, but does include the "Bay of Cambay" (Gulf of Khambhat), which is a bogus archaeological site.

The legitimate Indian site from your link concerns a temple offshore of the shore temple of Mahablaipuram. Note:

The Tsunami of December 2004 that struck the coastline of Coromandel exposed an old collapsed temple built entirely of granite blocks. This has renewed speculation that Mahablaipuram was a part of the Seven Pagodas described in the diaries of Europeans, of which six temples remain submerged in the sea. The Tsunami also exposed some ancient rock sculptures of lions, elephants, and peacocks that used to decorate walls and temples during the Pallava period during the 7th and 8th centuries.

Wiki

These temples sank within recent history.

The claim for Yonaguni is utterly baseless.

Yonaguni, when looked at in the context of the area's geology, can be seen to be a natural formation.

Shoreline on nearby Yonaguni Island:

yonaguni-coast3.jpg

Same formations can be found in various locations in that pic.

Harte

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To be fair I was being lazy on the google search - eeek! But I know I saved the bookmarks either on stumble-upon or via news clippings online.

Regardless of known location, I still strongly believe that civilizations was up and running long before Egyptians which is said to be about 4000 B.C. - logistically humans migrated north, north-east to wards Egypt and there's evidence of a civilization within the Sahara that is presumed they were the forefathers of the Egyptians and moved East and settled in Egypt which was much lusher, lets say for there was a civilization lost under all that sand!? I'm beliefs indirectly come from this link and this link (but scroll to the titled "The beginnings of civilization"). To be fair I can find anything online that kinda supports my theory and same about what is already written credited what your suggesting. However there isn't any 'real' proof and that's the point hence why it's more of a feeling and seeing all these new stories on here/ other places does make me wonder - what does it mean if our history IS longer?

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Technology will never substitue for intelligence no matter if we are in the stone age or the space age.

If we loose our technology tomorrow God help us if we loose our intelligence also.

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That the Sahara was milder and inhabited is known from the technology and some of the art they left behind. I assure you it was not to Egyptian standards, although the Egyptians are descended from them.

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To be fair I was being lazy on the google search - eeek! But I know I saved the bookmarks either on stumble-upon or via news clippings online.

Regardless of known location, I still strongly believe that civilizations was up and running long before Egyptians which is said to be about 4000 B.C. -

Please use the correct term - "culture," not "civilization."

logistically humans migrated north, north-east to wards Egypt and there's evidence of a civilization within the Sahara that is presumed they were the forefathers of the Egyptians and moved East and settled in Egypt which was much lusher, lets say for there was a civilization lost under all that sand!?

Previous Saharan cultures lived in that area when the Sahara was lush and dotted with lakes (shown to be nearly interconnected, if not entirely interconnected, across a large portion of what today is the Sahara Desert.)

I've saved links to some info about some of these cultures. You might want to peruse them. Here's a few:

link 1

link 2

link 3

link 4

Or, you could use some of the info in those links as keywords in your own google searches.

To be fair I can find anything online that kinda supports my theory and same about what is already written credited what your suggesting.

Yes, it's true that anyone can put anything they want on the internet. But, if you read my posts here and elsewhere, you'll find that I stick almost exclusively to actual evidence, whereas the things you can find online supporting some ancient advanced civilizations typically completely ignore the evidence.

However there isn't any 'real' proof and that's the point hence why it's more of a feeling and seeing all these new stories on here/ other places does make me wonder - what does it mean if our history IS longer?

Interestingly, nobody knew squat about the earliest civilization we know of (Sumer) prior to the late 1800's. The discovery hasn't exactly shaken the world. So, I'd say it wouldn't mean very much at all if an earlier civilization was discovered, though it would excite me.

Note I'm talking about civilizations here, not cultures.

Harte

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A civilization is what? A settlement exceeding maybe 5,000 people with an organized society?

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Just because we haven't found anything yet, doesn't mean we never will. In fact, it's typical scientific folly to assume that here, today, we have achieved the peak of human knowledge.

Every time I hear this, I ask the very simple question: "Who said we had?"

So far, I haven't gotten any answers. I don't anyone who has ever made an assumption like that, certainly no scientists that I have met or heard of assume such a thing. I can't imagine what sort of justification there is for calling it "typical".

I would even venture to say it's arrogant to dismiss this idea so quickly simply because we don't currently have much supporting evidence.

Well, something that does actually often turn into a typical scientific folly is submitting as a candidate explanation (for a given theory) a variable that has no reason to be included. It's called Bias. It isn't inherently wrong, but it can lead to Confirmation Bias very easily, and any researcher using this technique needs to be very cautious of their conclusions. It is a common error among rookies.

If there was a cataclysmic event tomorrow that wiped 99% of us off the planet, how much of our way of life would be there to discover 10,000 years from now? How about just 500 years from now? That vast majority of our knowledge is stored on hard drives - that's a bust. Our slap-together pre-fab houses would disintegrate pretty quickly so there would be no record of what we lived in. Cars, planes, boats...all gone under a giant tidal wave or massive landslide.

Pretty much everything made out of porcelain (for some reason, porcelain is even harder than the feldspar used to make it. And feldspar is #3 on the hard mineral list!). So a lot of toilet bowls (there was a parody book, Motel of Mysteries, drawn up about future civilizations digging up ancient "thrones" and theorizing about how early humans worshiped at them). Plus, pretty much all landfills, as they are already packed down and covered, so glaciers aren't going to have too much of an effect on them. Heck, archeologists have already started digging through older landfills just to get a better feel for life a few centuries ago. Everything towards the equator is going to survive the glacier creep, so the Panama Canal is still going to be there. Buried plastics, of course, still lying around...

There's actually a lot of stuff that would survive.

I have two major points:

i) Our society is at great risk of being forgotten if a global catastrophe were to happen

Forgotten? Sure. Undetectable? No.

ii) It's not hard to understand how an entire civilization could be lost if the world were to flood, if continents were crushed under hundreds of feet of ice, or simply thousands of years of sediment and nature were to reclaim those lands. Really, how much "evidence" would you expect to find? All we are left with are the stories ancient people want us to hear.

And yet, we regularly find things from the earliest days of the planet. We find things from 560 million years ago, when the only things on land were giant fungus trees. We find things from before dinosaurs roamed on land 300 million years ago, and from after they roamed on land, 60 million years ago. We have footprints from 3.7 million years ago, when a single species blew the minds of every animal they came across by choosing to walk on two legs.

We find things from 2 million years ago when the first Homo anythings came around. We find things from a mere 200,000 years ago, when anatomically modern humans (probably in far better shape, actually, than modern humans) appeared. We find things from 50,000 years ago, when we first decided to check out the other continents. We find things from 10,000 years ago, when the last ice age ended and the glaciers retreated back to the poles.

But we don't find an entire culture's worth of technology? We don't find their bronze age trash, their industrial age trash, their modern day trash (assuming they got their far)? We don't find any trace of them exploring the world, mining it, farming it, doing whatever it was that gave them the luxury to sit back and invent things?

There's only so many places that will allow civilizations to thrive, to go from basic nomadic lifestyle to modern day wheeling and dealing, and those places were snapped up pretty quickly. Epic wars were fought over resources and land, records of these conflicts were made by multiple cultures, kings kept track of the other empires, either because they feared them, or coveted them, or both.

How did a single culture manage to grow and thrive without threat or competition, and yet never leave their region, isolated from anyone for their entire existence, despite technology that would have made them gods in the ancient world?

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A civilization is what? A settlement exceeding maybe 5,000 people with an organized society?

Anthropology being a "soft" science, there is not a hard and strict dictionary-like definition.

Cultures are considered civilizations according to this (incomplete and malleable) list of characteristics:

All civilizations have certain characteristics. These include: (1) large population centers; (2) monumental architecture and unique art styles; (3) written language; (4) systems for administering territories; (5) a complex division of labor; and (6) the division of people into social classes.

NatGeo

Harte

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Does anyone else besides me believe that on this earth in the past humans may have been more technologically advanced than we are in modern day but it's been hidden? Just a thought

There is lots of evidence for that. The Great Pyramid being one of the best examples. Also look at the precision stonework in Peru. Cuzco, Sacsayhuaman, Ollyantaytambo.

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Yes I believe that in remote history there were technologies that defied our own.

Absolutely. Levitation, stone softening, electricity without wires. Evidence exists for all of these things.

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The problem with Venus isn't that it doesn't have an atmosphere. It has far to much of an atmosphere and retains to much heat.

Problem with supposing an ancient super power with modern day or better tech is even if in the future we have amazingly efficient biodegradeble buildings and tools and such, the technology we made to get there would still leave it's mark. Ceramics and plastics are effectively everlasting. The affect on life would be well documented.

You don' believe that some beings came here from Venus then?

Check out Valient Thor and his team.

http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/bb/stranges.htm

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There is lots of evidence for that. The Great Pyramid being one of the best examples. Also look at the precision stonework in Peru. Cuzco, Sacsayhuaman, Ollyantaytambo.

The Giza pyramid was built using simple tools well. The people were smart and were very capable of using the technologies available to them. The same is true of people all over the world. Were these people using advanced technologies? That is only true in the sense that they were better at using the technology available to them than people like zoser can image.

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Absolutely. Levitation, stone softening, electricity without wires. Evidence exists for all of these things.

There is zero evidence for any of these ideas.

This notion of advanced technologies in the past is simply a fantasy with zero supporting evidence.

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You don' believe that some beings came here from Venus then?

Check out Valient Thor and his team.

http://www.bibliotec...bb/stranges.htm

I get a kick out of these stories from the past before people were aware of the facts. They did not know at the time that Venus had the dense atmosphere it does and thus they made up testimonials about impossible events. It just goes to show you how pathetic testimonials are.

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Does anyone else besides me believe that on this earth in the past humans may have been more technologically advanced than we are in modern day but it's been hidden? Just a thought

Nope. Not me. There's absolutely no evidence whatsoever for this anyway. To this day, no one has found anything providing any sort of proof of more advanced civilizations in the past.

Human civilization has always churned forward. Maybe a few slow downs along the way, but it's always moved forward from primitive to more advanced. I won't claim it will always be like that (something could happen in the future), but it's been that way so far.

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What's the saying? "The proof is in the pudding", I personally feel that if there were an advanced civilization somewhere in our distant past that we would have certainly found at least some remnants of this civilization. While the possibility certainly exists, only because I never rule out anything without complete certainty, it is highly doubtful. Though I love the claims zoser makes about proof of levitation.... I would love to see this proof, although it is certainly not on topic.

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What's the saying? "The proof is in the pudding", I personally feel that if there were an advanced civilization somewhere in our distant past that we would have certainly found at least some remnants of this civilization. While the possibility certainly exists, only because I never rule out anything without complete certainty, it is highly doubtful. Though I love the claims zoser makes about proof of levitation.... I would love to see this proof, although it is certainly not on topic.

Don't invoke his name. This is a sane and happy thread at the moment.

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What's the saying? "The proof is in the pudding", I personally feel that if there were an advanced civilization somewhere in our distant past that we would have certainly found at least some remnants of this civilization. While the possibility certainly exists, only because I never rule out anything without complete certainty, it is highly doubtful. Though I love the claims zoser makes about proof of levitation.... I would love to see this proof, although it is certainly not on topic.

There's pudding?

Harte

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It's a big world and a lot of what use to be on land is now under water, so something might have been missed, even though ruins of major civilizations tend to be big and hard to miss.

What difference does it make? They have probably all been found by now, but if not they will be. It is of interest to history and anthropology, but no point getting all mysterious and wooish about.

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Just because we haven't found anything yet, doesn't mean we never will. In fact, it's typical scientific folly to assume that here, today, we have achieved the peak of human knowledge.

Please show me a scientific study that claims this.

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Dakota8595 asked:

Does anyone else besides me believe that on this earth in the past humans may have been more technologically advanced than we are in modern day but it's been hidden? Just a thought

Zoser replied:

There is lots of evidence for that. The Great Pyramid being one of the best examples. Also look at the precision stonework in Peru. Cuzco, Sacsayhuaman, Ollyantaytambo.

The Great Pyramid was built without the use of pulleys, arches, cement or iron. All these were available to the Romans. If the construction of the Great Pyramid is an example of high technology in construction, what does this make the Pantheon?

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Dakota8595 asked:

Zoser replied:

The Great Pyramid was built without the use of pulleys, arches, cement or iron. All these were available to the Romans. If the construction of the Great Pyramid is an example of high technology in construction, what does this make the Pantheon?

Zoser disbelieves the existence of the Pantheon.

And didn't he at one time claimed aliens built the pyramids? Now it's an advanced ancient civilization? That man flip-flops more than a stack of pancakes on a hot stove.

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