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Obama reflects on gun control's failure


OverSword

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This is where gun control folks just cant seem to get it. People kill people. There is no getting around that. Yes here in the US, people kill people with guns. What you cant seem to grasp is, if we didnt have guns, more people would be murdered simply by other means, knowing people have less means to protect themselfs. Violent crime and murder sky rocketed in not only places in the US that implemented strict gun control, but also in other countries where guns were confiscated. You dont see that as a bigger problem?

In Australia they passed stricter gun laws after the Port Arthur massacre and gun deaths fell by two thirds and they haven't had a similar mass shooting since,I think that shows you can have guns but with sensible laws in place as well.

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In Australia they passed stricter gun laws after the Port Arthur massacre and gun deaths fell by two thirds and they haven't had a similar mass shooting since,I think that shows you can have guns but with sensible laws in place as well.

Of course less guns means less gun deaths. But is there less deaths? The means is regardless.

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Of course less guns means less gun deaths. But is there less deaths? The means is regardless.

The murder rate has fallen

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The murder rate has fallen

And in the U.S the crime and murder rate has been falling as guns get more available.

The point I always want to make to everyone is that im fairly certain murder/crime rates are not effected by more/less gun laws. Different laws just happened to be passed when a crime trend is increasing or declining.

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And in the U.S the crime and murder rate has been falling as guns get more available.

The point I always want to make to everyone is that im fairly certain murder/crime rates are not effected by more/less gun laws. Different laws just happened to be passed when a crime trend is increasing or declining.

Thats a good point but I think that the more thorough background checks and rules on selling firearms has so far (18 years)stopped the mass shootings which is surely a good thing.

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The entire country of Australia is about 2/3 as large as the the United States but has a population equivalent to one of our cities. If your population was scaled up to a couple hundred million the amount of crazy things happening would surely scale up as well.

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What you cant seem to grasp is, if we didnt have guns, more people would be murdered simply by other means, knowing people have less means to protect themselfs.

As for that statement, I'm not even entirely sure thats true either, if you are to compare the US to other similar countries. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

Furthermore, do you think its just as easy to kill people by other means as it is with a gun?

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And in the U.S the crime and murder rate has been falling as guns get more available.

The point I always want to make to everyone is that im fairly certain murder/crime rates are not effected by more/less gun laws. Different laws just happened to be passed when a crime trend is increasing or declining.

I do believe other laws and effects have an impact on the number of murders and crime rates indeed. Having said that, I also think that gun control has an effect on it as well. Its not the end-all approach to eliminating murder and crime no matter which way you take it (more or less control), but I do think it has an effect.

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The entire country of Australia is about 2/3 as large as the the United States but has a population equivalent to one of our cities. If your population was scaled up to a couple hundred million the amount of crazy things happening would surely scale up as well.

Didn't someone mention something similar regarding Wyoming, and the answer he received was something along the lines of "It doesn't matter that the population of Wyoming is smaller, that is the per-capita rate. Learn what that means."

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Didn't someone mention something similar regarding Wyoming, and the answer he received was something along the lines of "It doesn't matter that the population of Wyoming is smaller, that is the per-capita rate. Learn what that means."

Fess and I disagree with things as much as you and I do. Someone did mention that, and someone else also mentioned that it doesn't matter what state you look at, if you're intelligent, and honest, you'll understand, and be able to admit that it's the same for the country's states across the board. Gun ownership is inversely correlated to gun murder, therefore you have to not only learn that clear fact, you have to think more deeply to come up with the reason why the national figures between countries are what they are.

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The entire country of Australia is about 2/3 as large as the the United States but has a population equivalent to one of our cities. If your population was scaled up to a couple hundred million the amount of crazy things happening would surely scale up as well.

No I'm not Australian I was reading about the Port Arthur massacre and the article went on to mention what happened after it.Australians still own guns but they tightened up background checks and rules about selling on firearms.The measures they took seem sensible to me and they seem to have made a difference.

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Fess and I disagree with things as much as you and I do. Someone did mention that, and someone else also mentioned that it doesn't matter what state you look at, if you're intelligent, and honest, you'll understand, and be able to admit that it's the same for the country's states across the board. Gun ownership is inversely correlated to gun murder, therefore you have to not only learn that clear fact, you have to think more deeply to come up with the reason why the national figures between countries are what they are.

Its quite easy to dismiss others opinions when you consider yourself more intelligent and honest than the other side, isn't it?

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In Australia they passed stricter gun laws after the Port Arthur massacre and gun deaths fell by two thirds and they haven't had a similar mass shooting since,I think that shows you can have guns but with sensible laws in place as well.

Right, and at the same time their murder, and violent crime rates went through the roof. They dont have sensible gun laws. They have tyrannical gun laws that have hurt their citizans.

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As for that statement, I'm not even entirely sure thats true either, if you are to compare the US to other similar countries. http://en.wikipedia....l_homicide_rate

Furthermore, do you think its just as easy to kill people by other means as it is with a gun?

I dont see how its easy to intentionaly kill anyone, gun or not. But then Im not a murderer.

Washington DC - -(Ammoland.com)- A report examining crime in Britain since “restrictive firearm laws virtually banned handguns” in 1997 shows that crime stats have been “massaged” to convince British subjects the gun ban worked, when in fact it may have backfired.

Authored by Dr. Paul Gallant, Dr. Joanne D. Eisen, Alan J. Chwick, and Sherry Gallant, and published here at AmmoLand, the report shows that as recently as 2008 “one in three [brits] had been a victim of crime, or knew someone who had been.” Also in 2008, “nearly half [of survey respondents] knew of someone in their community who had been a victim in the last year.”

How is such crime possible if banning guns produced the utopia CNN’s Piers Morgan repeatedly describes?

Read more: http://www.ammoland.com/2013/10/british-crime-rates-manipulated-to-seem-lower-since-gun-ban/#ixzz35S39QYXV

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Its quite easy to dismiss others opinions when you consider yourself more intelligent and honest than the other side, isn't it?

No, it's quite easy when their opinions disagree with the data. The US has a problem. The problem is not gun ownership.

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No, it's quite easy when their opinions disagree with the data. The US has a problem. The problem is not gun ownership.

Unfortunately for you, data was presented which your opinion disagrees with again, bringing us back into the realm of opinion, not hard fact like you would like to believe.

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I dont see how its easy to intentionaly kill anyone, gun or not. But then Im not a murderer.

Then you're being purposely obtuse in an effort to avoid answering my question.

What is easier to kill with and kill greater numbers with, a gun or a knife?

Edited by Stellar
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Unfortunately for you, data was presented which your opinion disagrees with again, bringing us back into the realm of opinion, not hard fact like you would like to believe.

I didn't disagree with the fact that the higher gun ownership is in the US, the lower the gun murders. Data comparing nations can be taken with it, it can't replace it.

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Then you're being purposely obtuse in an effort to avoid answering my question.

What is easier to kill with and kill greater numbers with, a gun or a knife?

It's easier to kill someone with a gun. See how easy that is? But if that person also has a gun, it's harder to kill them even if you have a gun. See how easy that is? You're probably too obtuse to admit that people with guns are harder to kill. A circular argument going nowhere and you're ignoring the data to boot.

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I didn't disagree with the fact that the higher gun ownership is in the US, the lower the gun murders. Data comparing nations can be taken with it, it can't replace it.

You outright refused to accept the validity of the data I showed you. Hell, your original statement implied that my data didn't even exist. I showed you the data and you simply hand-waved it away.

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It's easier to kill someone with a gun. See how easy that is? But if that person also has a gun, it's harder to kill them even if you have a gun. See how easy that is? You're probably too obtuse to admit that people with guns are harder to kill. A circular argument going nowhere and you're ignoring the data to boot.

Ahh yes. More assumptions as to my beliefs.

I fully agree that it's easier to kill with a gun, and it's harder to kill someone with a gun, and it's even harder to kill someone with a gun when you don't have one.

See how easy it is to be wrong when you constantly make assumptions?

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Right, and at the same time their murder, and violent crime rates went through the roof. They dont have sensible gun laws. They have tyrannical gun laws that have hurt their citizans.

At the moment homicide is at an all time low and they haven't had a mass shooting since.It seems to me the measures worked and I don't see they've hurt anyone.What is tyrannical about thorough background checks?

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Are there any shootings in Australia? All I ever hear is there are no mass shootings but that doesn't necessarily mean there aren't 100 separate shootings everyday.

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In 2011 they had 25 gun homicides,the last year before the legislation they had 104.Remember I am not an Aussie I have recently read about this subject so I probably know as much as you do

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In 2011 they had 25 gun homicides,the last year before the legislation they had 104.Remember I am not an Aussie I have recently read about this subject so I probably know as much as you do

I know. I remember you told me. Just throwing out a question for the masses.

If only we could eliminate street gangs. You'd see our murder rates plummet like an avalanche.

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