Help me believe

[libstaK]

So, you want to be a good Buddhist?

Isn't that a little contradictory to what you claim is the goal of 'removing want'?

To be generous a person has to want to be generous. To be compassionate, a person has to want to be compassionate. These 'virtues' you speak of are all the result of wanting to be virtuous. It's self-delusion to imagine that you are "removing want (or desire)" in hoping to achieve virtue.

You miss the point, the virtues are what remains when want is removed. Yes, it seems contradictory but as a teacher I value once pointed out, sometimes you have to ride the devils back. We are a mass of desire, we can choose how we use that fact and that choice can change the fact.

BTW the seven desires I listed were the seven deadly sins from the bible, it's not a good buddhist that I am seeking to be, it is the christian principle of sacrifice aka: sacrifice of desire that I am seeking to enact. Nevertheless, buddhist meditation provides an excellent means by which to observe, comprehend and remove the power the seven deadlies have in one's life, we need to understand the problem before we can remove the problem.

Edited June 19, 2014 by libstaK

[Grandpa Greenman]

If I wasn't a Pagan I would be a Buddhist. It is an enriching path and very like the Path I am on. I like to listen to the Dalai Lama on Youtube. We Pagans have 8 holidays a year, though, I think I would get bored being a Buddhist.

[Eldorado]

The commandments, "You shall not commit adultery," "You shall not murder," "You shall not steal," "You shall not covet," and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." -- Jesus

[No Censorship]

Yea, typical Christian.

Yeah, predictable Frank Merton reply. Enough said.

[Himalayan Mystic]

I've done this and have found very few things that stick. From Christianity I found the Golden Rule, which is an easier moral code to understand. From studies asian religions I found Dao. Then I found something called Dark-Working which is where you basically focus on yourself and your happiness. So my spirituality is not one of the common paradigms. I've even gone so far as to practice Chaos Magick so that I could experience various religions. Yet the more I spent doing this the more I realized that I use using psychological programming. Nothing more than glorified self help.

Well Xeno,

Is religion about you or others?

Suppose you came across people with high moral codes or the good apples, would that make a big difference?

What exactly are you looking for?

Does anyone really know?

Are we all just randomly exploring or are we actively seeking something...................

[Frank Merton]

If I wasn't a Pagan I would be a Buddhist. It is an enriching path and very like the Path I am on. I like to listen to the Dalai Lama on Youtube. We Pagans have 8 holidays a year, though, I think I would get bored being a Buddhist.

You can be a Buddhist and celebrate whatever holiday or festival you want. Most Buddhist events tend to be based on the celebrations of the local culture, but Christmas is now popular, as are birthdays. Of course the specific Christian message tends to get buried in the overall message of goodwill and having fun (especially Santa).

[karmakazi]

You can be a Buddhist and celebrate whatever holiday or festival you want. Most Buddhist events tend to be based on the celebrations of the local culture, but Christmas is now popular, as are birthdays. Of course the specific Christian message tends to get buried in the overall message of goodwill and having fun (especially Santa).

I don't really celebrate any holidays, other than joining in with family because it's time with them (as much as I can stand). The main reason is how commercialized holidays are...as far as I'm concerned black Friday may as well be hell on earth day.

[+Hammerclaw]

Best wishes to you as well. I'm just tired of trying. Sorry to anyone in any of the religious thread that I might have offended. Considering that I have had very few good religious experiences you now know why I am the way I am. Please forgive me.

Even Mother Teresa was troubled and uncertain at the end her life. She longed for a truly religious experience to confirm what she believed. She felt that moment of illumination that brilliant light that shone on Paul on the road to Damascus had been denied her.. If such a one as she could have doubts, is there any wonder that you and I can entertain them as well? If you seek God, don't look outward in the world for him. Seek him inside yourself as child who says his prayers before sleep. With most of us God does not reveal himself in showy displays of earthquakes and storms and lightnings and thunder, but after they pass, a still, quiet voice. If in your heart of hearts you truly seek God, be at peace and be untroubled and patient. God knows his own, and he will find you. Edited June 20, 2014 by hammerclaw

[Grandpa Greenman]

You can be a Buddhist and celebrate whatever holiday or festival you want. Most Buddhist events tend to be based on the celebrations of the local culture, but Christmas is now popular, as are birthdays. Of course the specific Christian message tends to get buried in the overall message of goodwill and having fun (especially Santa).

Actually I can be a Buddhist and a Pagan as I said the paths are not that far apart and many Pagans are also Buddhist. I am my own guru and really have no need for a buddha. I have already been nailed by the Universe while sitting under a tree. Trees are conduits of Earth, water, and air and for me are seats of wisdom. The only Buddhist temple I would really like to go and see is the bodhi tree. The only part of sacred books that are sacred to me is the paper from the trees. It's a Druid thing.

[Marcus Aurelius]

I am one of many individuals who have had unfortunate run in with the dark side of religion. Often coming across the bad apples of various faiths. From the highly devout to the almost fanatical. This has made me very agnostic to the whole thing. I want to believe wholly in God but I can't because of what religion has done to me. I don't care what faith you are, I don't care what religion or where you come from. I want to know what the human aspect is like? Are you one of the highly devout to the point of being narrow minded fanatic? Are you what I call those of casual faith, in which you simply pray and do the best you can to live a good life? Help me understand. Help change my views so that I don't become jaded. Here is a chance to show a doubter your faith. Anyone, Christian, Jew, Muslim, and/or Pagan. I don't care who. Educate me.

Hello, XenoFish. I want to say first of all that since being back on these forums, I have really enjoyed reading your posts and I've also appreciated our own conversations on here, few though they may be. I see in you a kind of intellectual honesty that I find refreshing. It would seem that you are both a skeptic AND a spiritual seeker at the same time; which is both rare and admirable. Indeed, I can relate to it; which is why I've been looking forward to writing a response to you on this wonderful and interesting thread that you started. Forgive me if the response is a bit longer; there is just a lot that could be said...

I think it is honorable that you live according to the Golden Rule. This proves that you have a compassionate heart and as I've said in our previous exchanges, I think you are a lot more 'spiritual' than you give yourself credit for; because this alone shows that you look beyond the self; which truly is the beginning stage to just about ANY religious or spiritual path. That said, I want to provide a brief critique, if I may. This is NOT to criticize you OR your views in the least; but rather just to show you another angle or perspective from a theist point of view. While you or I would quickly say that the Golden Rule is a good way to live one's life, I would ask, how do you KNOW that it is good? If you and I are solely the products of time and chance, emerging from the primordial sludge pool and adapting simply for survivability; the Golden Rule has no basis in objective reality because, well, there IS NO objective reality. Your moral code is purely subjective and arbitrary. If another person feels it is 'right' to harm and steal from others to benefit himself; his position is as equally justifiable as your own UNLESS there is an objective realm constituting what 'real' morality is. There would have to be some kind of absolute; that even if there was no one around...there is still an absolute and unchanging "right" and "wrong." Morality as an absolute cannot exist without a similarly unchanging agent, and this agent, I feel, is God. God imparted to you a sense of this "right" and "wrong" in the form of your conscience being made in His image and it is this that allows you to live according to the Golden Rule, whether you know it or not. Thus, in following your conscience, in following the Golden Rule, you are in turn following the will of God; even if you are doing so indirectly.

Now, onto other things. I am very sorry to hear that you have had negative experiences of religion. Unfortunately this is all too common and to be quite frank, it really depresses me. I really want to try to help people that have been wounded by religion in my own ministry efforts. I would love to hear your story sometime.

I hope that my words here can provide some insight into that. In your original post you equated being devout with fanaticism and even bigotry. I can see how one would at a glance think that to be the case; but might I suggest that what you perceive as being devout...could be wrong? I would argue that the more devout one is, the LESS fanatical they are, the LESS bigoted they are, and perhaps most importantly the LESS judgmental they are. For instance, someone like Saint Teresa of Avila, Saint Francis of Assisi, Saint John of the Cross or Saint Catherine of Sienna....THEY were devout; but could you see any one of THEM doing the things that may have harmed you or others in their past? I am a Christian and a theist. I consider myself to be very devout; I am studying to become an ordained Pastor. But yet you would never hear me claiming that all non-believers are going to hell or that my path to God is the only real or valid one. I would argue that the more TRULY devout one is, the LESS judgmental and critical they would be. The goal of the devout life is to move beyond the mundane to the sacred; to cast aside this judgmental and false ego-self. I would in turn argue that those fanatics and bigots of whom you speak are very far from devout. I would pose to you that a good many of them are actually weak and ignorant in their faith, and that when confronted or challenged with their beliefs; they have no other course of action than to resort to judgment, intolerance and cruelty. In my own experience, the ones of the 'casual' faith are the ones you need to be more concerned about; so in a sense, I think you have the two backwards. The truly devout should be BEYOND judgment and condemnation.

I think religion has failed you perhaps because you have been looking in the wrong places. Read a book like the Imitation of Christ, Dark Night of the Soul, Introduction to the Devout Life, the Confessions or the Interior Castle. To understand what the devout life is like; go to those who were truly devout and it will probably set a stirring deep within your own soul as well. You see to be devout at all, we have to transform the inner man first; and this is why religion fails in so many regards today; because it focuses on the OUTER man; as you say...an almost self-help message with God thrown in. Tithe and your finances will improve. Pray and your obstacles will be removed. It is cheap pop-culture religion, spirituality and Christianity. For one such as myself, it is no wonder you would be burned out on organised religion. Were it not for my own studies of the great mystics, saints and spiritual masters: I doubt I would be where I am today.

This of course leads to the deeper question. Why DOES religion fail? Why do churches wound rather than heal? Why do we pervert scriptures to justify all manner of wrongdoing? XenoFish, I would argue that all Truth comes from God, and thus, any truth that is found in religious scriptures comes from God. But such revelation comes only at a level that you and I can understand; so the scriptures, in essence, are God's "baby-talk" to us and religion forms as a way to interpret that "baby-talk". But it is so far beyond the realm of our own understanding that we can scarcely comprehend even God's "baby-talk", so is it any wonder that we fumble and bumble about so stupidly? At the root of nearly every major religion is this idea that mankind has somehow deviated from his true self, his true identity; thus only in fleeting glimpses, like flashes of lightning lighting up the night sky can we understand and grasp the things of God. So we fail more often than not. If you came to "my church" seeking God, I am sure that I as a "Christian minister" would fail you in some sense, even if I wasn't like any of the religious leaders from your past. Simply put, I'm just a man, trying to know God the best that I can...just as you are. No pompous titles, no matter how many religious degrees I obtain; I am in no better position than you and only an arrogant fool would claim otherwise. The best I could do is try to point you to the path, see? But YOU and you alone have to walk that path...with God at your side. The purpose of religion, the purpose of being in church...is to be around like minded individuals who are trying to walk down that same path. Thus, the church could serve as your GPS and company for the journey. But that is all. We are all flawed and fallen human beings.

But let's look at this another way. We have seen that religions can wound rather than heal, harm rather than help. But what religion does for you is provide an explanation as to WHY that happens. I was created in the image of God, but I deviated from that image and subsequently the purpose and intention of God. By my own free will I became a contradiction of what I am supposed to be. But through faith, through my relationship with God and through living that Golden Rule, I can begin to recapture that lost image. By contrast, if you and I are simply the products of time, chance, and natural selection...there is no explanation for the existence of evil. It simply IS; indeed, can we even call it evil? If I am just another animal, how is my killing of another human being for some perceived benefit any different than say a lion killing for that same kind of benefit?

I think there HAS to be some kind of God XenoFish, or else everything is meaningless. Religion is just our attempt to know that God, however imperfectly. At best, we are like children on a bike with training wheels. So when you think of those who may have harmed you in the past, it is best to see them as they actually are: as flawed human beings no different than you or I.

I believe that you CAN find God XenoFish, in partnership with or even in spite of religion. I apologize for the shameless plug, but you should read my blog entry called "The Seeking God." I believe that it is God who first seeks us rather than we who seek Him. Once you understand this orientation, you will know that you don't have to find Him at all....He is already there in your life...and has been all along. "Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and eat with him, and he with me." (Rev 3:20)

I sincerely hope that this post will be of some benefit to you. Blessings,

MA

[XenoFish]

Wow, I don't even know how to respond that that. All I know is that when I'm alone in nature (typically during my evening walk) I feel connected to everything. It might seem weird but I feel the life around me in a sense. It feels peaceful, comforting. No matter what faith I look into I don't like giving the divine a name. Because that limits it. Doing such a thing in my eyes gives rise to nothing more that an illusion. I'm going to look into nature based religions and see if any appeal to me.

[Marcus Aurelius]

That makes sense; I believe we find God, are closest to God in the stillness and silence. Only when we can quiet down the noise in our own hearts and minds will we be able to listen and hear Him. You should read Thomas Merton, the man I cite as my 'hero'. He was a monk and a hermit whose books are just dripping with what you're talking about. Check out something like his New Seeds of Contemplation or Thoughts in Solitude. Also, I think Zen Buddhism would resonate with you. D.T. Suzuki would be a great start.

Regardless of where you go on the journey, blessings be to you, and may God draw near to you as you draw nearer to Him. And I'd love to chat with you along the way. I think you're in a good place and I really do admire your sincerity. You have the heart and the questions of a true seeker..and indeed...sometimes it is better to think in questions.

[karmakazi]

I sincerely hope that this post will be of some benefit to you. Blessings,

MA

That was a beautiful post, I very much enjoyed reading it

[Erowin]

I don't know what I'm looking for anymore. I see no hope in anything. That religion is supposed to make someone into a better person, but all I come across are narrow minded bigots.

Hi! I'm not religious, so I can't really give you any pointers on 'how to believe' but I can help you feel better if you end up an agnostic/atheist. Obviously a problem some non-believers will inevitably face is the fear that life has no cosmic meaning. And, in my opinion, it doesn't!

But who said we needed a 'meaning'? Whats wrong with making your own?

Thinking on the big scale, zooming back from Earth and feeling that in the vast universe, there isn't some benevolent being who loves you and put you on Earth for a reason can be disheartening. So zoom back in! There's meaning all around you, it's just a little closer. It's in the people who love you and care about you. In what you think of yourself and accepting who you are. In the people you can help, the change you can make in the world, the little joys you have day to day. Every life has meaning because we've influenced people around us. And there's no way it was all negative! You don't even have to build an orphanage or invent some wonderful thing. You can change the world by being in it, forming relationships, and trying to be happy. Yes, you wouldn't believe anyone put you here, or gave you a mission. Thats why you find your own! Think about it- you got to exist! The odds of a single sperm and specific egg meeting in all of the world created you, and that's really cool! So use that time as a strange happy accident bringing you to life to find your own meaning.

Non-believing does come with a bit of a selfish streak, but a healthy one! Instead of giving all of yourself to religion, which promotes sacrifice- you have to take care of you. This world view says meaning is what you want it to be, and this is your one shot at life- so live it well. Be happy, take care of yourself and be happy with who you are. Of course, you can balance those views with a religion if that's what ends up working for you. I'm not saying religion doesn't want you to be happy!

And this may just be me being weird, but looking into the vast mystery of the universe and seeing just a mysterious place with no higher power makes me excited. It means we get to go explore this huge uncharted territory, and humans love exploring and going to new places! Maybe one day we'll find meaning in the stars, but thinking about advances in space tech is so exciting to me!

As for death- well, I'm not one to be comforting others facing the idea that we cease to exist. Death is one of my greatest fears, to be honest. Though it still was even as a believer- Heaven sounded terrifying, because I didn't know if I would still be me, in a body in a familiar corporal existence. Being anything else sounds scary, and being an aware bodied being for eternity sounds like it would drive you mad. I try not to think about it, and remind myself that once I'm dead, I'm not going to care. I won't exist to be scared and worried and bemoaning the fact that I don't exist. I've not existed before- for billions of years. And I was just fine with that wasn't I? Hundreds of generations lived and died and I didn't even exist, and I didn't even mind that I didn't.

And this really isn't me trying to convince you not to believe! One thing I hate is when others try to sway someone into their belief, because I think its something everyone must come to terms with themselves. I'm simply offering some advice if you find you can't believe because I had a similar crisis and felt very alone. You have to find the thing that works for you and makes sense. And maybe it is religion! Maybe you'll find Christ and be happy in that belief, or you will become a Buddhist and follow the Eightfold path or become Muslim and find comfort in Allah- I don't know! But any path that feels right to you IS right. Just never lie to yourself. If you pick one thing but feel deep down like it's wrong, that you don't really believe it- let it go. I used to do that and it made me so anxious and stressed. Realizing I didn't believe in Christianity deep down and accepting that fact felt so good, and my life is much better because of it.

Choose what seems right and true to you, whatever that may be. And be happy with existence, whether you end up thinking it was divinely orchestrated or not!

P.S- You seem to be describing animism when talking about your feelings of spirituality. I'd look into animism some more!

Edited June 21, 2014 by Erowin

[No Censorship]

Yea, typical Christian.

I felt somewhat bad that you and I quarreled. We got along in the past. Evidently, we pushed each others buttons. Pushed buttons come with the territory when hot button issues are discussed.

[Beany]

I'm experimenting with letting the path choose me, i.e. let myself be informed by everything around me, instead of adopting someone else's tradition, ideas, dogma, experiences, etc. It often puts me at odds with my friends, because most of them have a self-directed spirituality that fits in with one ideology or another. While me, the longer I practice this sort of stillness, the more I come to realize how few true things I know.

[XenoFish]

I've been looking into zen meditation and it calls to me. I appreciate all the insight into my questions. Thanks everyone.

[Frank Merton]

I've been looking into zen meditation and it calls to me. I appreciate all the insight into my questions. Thanks everyone.

I approve of meditation, as I also approve of exercise and naps and listening quietly to good music. These are all things one should assign time to on a daily basis. I would not worry overmuch about what kind of meditation, except that I would say if a certain body posture is painful, don't do it.

[Likely Guy]

I felt somewhat bad that you and I quarreled. We got along in the past. Evidently, we pushed each others buttons. Pushed buttons come with the territory when hot button issues are discussed.

Yeah, that whole 'Golden Rule' thing, we (me included) should do that more.

[Bluefinger]

I'm experimenting with letting the path choose me, i.e. let myself be informed by everything around me, instead of adopting someone else's tradition, ideas, dogma, experiences, etc. It often puts me at odds with my friends, because most of them have a self-directed spirituality that fits in with one ideology or another. While me, the longer I practice this sort of stillness, the more I come to realize how few true things I know.

I guess that the philosophy I have had to live by is that you can only do the best you can and make the decisions that you believe are correct. That includes following another person's way. Some people make the wrong choice, but not because they want to be evil or want to just be wrong. They just make the choice they think is best.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bluefinger

[redhen]

I'm going to look into nature based religions and see if any appeal to me.

You can certainly find indigenous religions with this emphasis, but they all come with added baggage that may be hard to accept.

You're not the first one that has had this kind of experience.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Muir#Philosophical_beliefs

Here's a doc on John Muir, an early conservationist.

[media=]

[/media] Edited June 22, 2014 by redhen

[Beany]

I guess that the philosophy I have had to live by is that you can only do the best you can and make the decisions that you believe are correct. That includes following another person's way. Some people make the wrong choice, but not because they want to be evil or want to just be wrong. They just make the choice they think is best.

That's very compassionate. Most of us are doing our best at any given moment. Some of us have more resources, more positive experiences & resources to draw on, we're the lucky ones. And every one of us has made some wrong or bad choices in our lives, the consequences of those choices are very powerful teachers.

My religion/spirituality/philosophy maybe falls into the category of "we're all in it together, so let's make the best of it".

Edited June 22, 2014 by Beany

[Bluefinger]

That's very compassionate. Most of us are doing our best at any given moment. Some of us have more resources, more positive experiences & resources to draw on, we're the lucky ones. And every one of us has made some wrong or bad choices in our lives, the consequences of those choices are very powerful teachers.

My religion/spirituality/philosophy maybe falls into the category of "we're all in it together, so let's make the best of it".

Word. I think 'lucky' is the best way to put it. I'm not better than anybody simply because of what I believe or how hard I work. I'm just lucky. That's it.

As a Christian, I believe that if I have more, I am more accountable with what I do with what I have. I don't deserve what I have. I have worked hard, but so have so many people who are struggling to make ends meet. What I do have is not even mine. I believe it has been put in my care. I admit, this is not an area I have been as faithful as I want to be. I'm currently working this out, trying to be faithful with what I've been given (even though I'm not wealthy by any means). Whatever I have, I want to do good with it.

I personally apologize to you and anybody here for being lazy and selfish, even with my intellect.

Edited June 22, 2014 by Bluefinger

[Beany]

Just as important as material goods is love, compassion, forgiveness, finding ways to support people, being of service. We all have the capacity to offer these things, sounds like you have it in spades. Yes, if often comes down to luck or chance, doesn't it, with some of our successes and failures. Not always, but often.

[Bluefinger]

Just as important as material goods is love, compassion, forgiveness, finding ways to support people, being of service. We all have the capacity to offer these things, sounds like you have it in spades. Yes, if often comes down to luck or chance, doesn't it, with some of our successes and failures. Not always, but often.

Well, I didn't want anyone to think I have it in spades. I make less that 40k a year and am supporting my wife and we have a baby on the way. I just realize that I have it so much better than my mother had it when she raised my brother and I. My kids won't have to share the same bath water to save on bills or have to wear hand-me-downs. My mother didn't get to pursue a bachelor's degree while working and taking care of kids. I can. I dunno. I just feel more accountable with what I have been given.