4th grader suing another for bullying

[aztek]

often bulling does not include assault or battery, or anything physical. we saw kids commit suicides over internet bullying, even thou no physical harm was done to the kid. physical bullying is easier to fight.

[Thelaw1]

often bulling does not include assault or battery, or anything physical. we saw kids commit suicides over internet bullying, even thou no physical harm was done to the kid. physical bullying is easier to fight.

Aren't some states enacting laws though to combat this?? I think I read somewhere where a state was trying it out. Can't really recall but regardless, you bring up an excellent point.

[Merc14]

Don't know why it matters but ok. I am a conservative and I support this. I suppose my love for law and order is greater than my love for smaller government.

A more interesting question than left or right may be who has kids and who doesn't. I knOw before I had a kid that I supported spanking but after actually becoming a father I am against it and have never spanked my son. I don't want to start the spanking debate here, please, as that is a separate topic but my point is that being a parent definitely changes your perspective and I bet is a determinant in this debate.

Aren't some states enacting laws though to combat this?? I think I read somewhere where a state was trying it out. Can't really recall but regardless, you bring up an excellent point.

There is a very popular facebook like program called Yik-Yak that is completely anonymous and untraceable as well as being free. Some psychologists have called it the most dangerous ever because it allows for gang-bullying while protecting the bullies.

Edited June 23, 2014 by Merc14

[questionmark]

It's that slavish attitude towards laws that hold us back. That's the same thinking that allows schools to suspend students for having a pop-tart shaped gun.

Common sense has to prevail, not a strict adherence to laws that do not weigh factors.

I don't think a kid is old enough to understand all the consequences. I'm not saying they shouldn't be punished, but a criminal offense?

Problems start when laws are made legalistic and not with common sense.

[questionmark]

A more interesting question than left or right may be who has kids and who doesn't. I knew before I had a kid that I supported spanking but after actually becoming a father, I am against it and have never spanked my son. I don't want to start the spanking debate here, please, as that is a separate topic but my point is that being a parent definitely changes your perspective and I bet is a determinant in this debate.

That is a good point too. Now, I have 2 kids and the last thing I would have gotten into is a quarrel between them and anybody of their own size.

[Thelaw1]

A more interesting question than left or right may be who has kids and who doesn't. I knew before I had a kid that I supported spanking but after actually becoming a father, I am against it and have never spanked my son. I don't want to start the spanking debate here, please, as that is a separate topic but my point is that being a parent definitely changes your perspective and I bet is a determinant in this debate.

Excellent point. You're views on the world begin to change and in big ways, once you have a stake in the world as important as a family of your own. This question is probably more on point than the other question posed.

[Wickian]

Is he coming home with bruises more than once? If not then this isn't lawsuit worthy. Bullying is something you have to solve for yourself. Getting others to do it for you won't solve the problem because the kid will probably just target someone else, or target that kid even harder.

[aquatus1]

may be it has not, may be they were thought by their parents, do not fight back, go to teacher at tell him\her on those kids. or may be they just do not have balls to fight back. have more fear then courage.

Except none of the above explains the rise in reports of bullying, or the large percentage of those bullied. In other words, rather than addressing the facts as they are reported, you chose to go with "Nah, I'll believe this."

well your thought is not what i've seen in reality many times over. honestly i have no idea where you get these thoughts from,

You aren't the only one with experience. I've trained over 400 Sea Cadets, and not all of them where there voluntarily. From what you say, you've observed a few cases in school environments (though it honestly only sounds like talk). I've had to deal with them after the judge offered them the option between this and jail. (I've already talked about this in the past, so I won't rehash everything. But you don't have to take my word for it; it fact, I recommend you don't, as my experience is pretty much with the worst of the lot still on the outside of the prison fence. There are other sources of information avaliable:

National Crime Victimization Survey

Youth Risk Behavior Surveillance System

have you noticed it is only weak ones, and who can not stand up for themselves that are builled???

No, I have not. Nor, for that matter, do I find it particularly matters. Bullying is not a one-time thing. Bullying is not low confidence because you lost a fair fight. Bullying is continuous. Bullying is done by ambush. The reason why victims feel helpless is because they are helpless. By the time you are being bullied, it is already to late and you are surrounded. When it is the fourth day in a row, three against one, telling someone to stand up for themselves is the height of stupidity.

yes i know of a case when a football player was bullied by his team, does not change a thing, he never fought back.

Gee, someone was being threatened by a team of football players (minus one), and he didn't fight back? Nonsense! Football players are big, tough, guys! They represent the manliest of manly men! Why, it is inconceivable that a wimp who didn't want to be violent would even join the football team!

It isn't the victim that is the problem. The problem is the bully. It is the bully that is creating a violent environment. Why on Earth would I want to enforce Right by Strength? I don't want a society where it is considered normal to deal with violence by being violent. I want a society where violence is considered the final option to a solution, used only when lives are in danger.

It's easy to blame the victim. Oh, their parents told them not to fight. Oh, they went to the teacher instead of dealing with it themselves. Oh, they must not have the balls. Oh, they are just afraid.

Bullflop. There is nothing shameful about obeying your parents. There is nothing wrong with telling a superior about a problem (hell, that's one of the jobs of a teacher). There is nothing wrong with "not having the balls" to go caveman, particularly if you aren't a man to begin with. And only an idiot would think it strange for a child to be afraid when they are being attacked.

The mentality that the victim is to blame is what leads to things like victims being punished for reporting assault. It's easier to ignore a problem if it's just one bully picking on one kid at a time, and it becomes a pain in the neck if the kid starts demanding that the school actually get off its ass and do the "safe environment" and "prepare kids for life" thing, but when it gets to the point that schools are punishing the victims, when it gets to the point that over half the students in the U.S. report being bullied, then the very simple conclusion is that what we have now is not working. You can't claim that the problem is that 70% of the students don't have the balls to fight back.

[aquatus1]

Bullying is something you have to solve for yourself. Getting others to do it for you won't solve the problem because the kid will probably just target someone else, or target that kid even harder.

Didn't think this one through all the way, did you?

[Odin11]

seeing the voting results above I wish somebody would have included a second question whether the voter is leaning more towards liberal or conservative..

A better question would be who was bullied and who was a bully. I see a lot of people on here blaming the victims and that shows a bully mindset.

[Wickian]

Didn't think this one through all the way, did you?

How so? If it was just one fight and some general "this kid is picking on me!" then why bring it to court? If he's been attacked more than once in addition to bullying, then if the school won't or can't do anything do you take it to court.

[+DieChecker]

I'm no expert but I know that anyone who thinks they'll end a fight in one punch doesn't know anything about fighting. If you're going to tell a kid to "just punch the bully" you're going to get that poor kid beat possibly severely. A fight will take a certain amount of time, and a small child fighting a large child probably shouldn't expect to totally incapacitate the larger kid after any number of punches if he's never been in fights before.

What I learned from my time in the Army and from my own school fights was that if you think you are going to make some kind of plan and just punch the guy once in the gut, or whatever, you will loose. The only fights I ever won were ones where I just went all out and began whacking the crud out of the other guy. A physical bully will have respect for nothing but physical resistance. If there is no physical resistance, he'll continue to bully regardless of any mental or social punishments.

I used to bite and scratch and trip and roll around on the ground beating the other guys head into the ground. And let's face it, this is how 90% of kid fights are won.

[+DieChecker]

As for those who ask why kids dont stand up and fight back, there are a whole host of reasons why. First, when kids fight today, the cops are called and everyone involved is sent to a detention center. Sometimes that goes on a child's permanent record. Second, maybe the kid simply can't fight back. If he is so much weaker than the bullying child then what's the point. When a child gets bullied and cannot defend himself with his fists, what does he resort to? Most (99.999%) resort to suffering quitely after notifying the school authorities or remaining silent because, well, let's face it, it's futile. That can have deep psychological impact that can last the length of an entire person's life. As I said, when a kid is bullied and the school does nothing to stop it, the only thing the kid can do is to think "Gee, apparently no one cares about my suffering." The other .001% lash out in some of the most violent ways imaginable.

The problem is that we tell our kids, "You shouldn't fight because you would clearly lose.". There is nothing wrong demanding that fighting be the last opinion, but why just poison a kid's self respect by telling them they couldn't possibly win because they are small, weak, fat, slow, clumsy...

It is the "It is futile to fight back" attitude that is taking over America and turning everyone into a bunch of wimps who just let things happen to them. They get fired... They give up. They have a bad marriage... they give up. They see their neighborhood going to hell... they give up. I hate people that just give up.

These people have psychological issues not because they were bullied, but because they were taught to give up to the bully.

[+DieChecker]

Is that why 46% of males and 26% of females report being physically bullied? It hasn't occurred to any of them to just fight back, and the bullying will stop?

Are these all people who have been bullied? Or people who have been bullied and did nothing about it?

Because I was bullied multiple times when I was in school, and I stood up to the bullies and they stopped. So then am I part of the 46%?

And considering the incidents of bullying are on the rise, does that mean that more and more people are being bullied and not thinking that they just need to fight and when there are two people fighting, bullying goes away?

My opinion is that we are training our kids to not fight anymore and instead to just lay down like a fish and take it, or to go to an authority figure. But, as has been posted here in the form of many personal stories, the authorities take there sweet time doing anything about it. So that leaves fishing out and being constantly bullied.

It is no wonder that bullying is on the upswing... Fighting is on the downswing.

Edited June 24, 2014 by DieChecker

[+DieChecker]

A more interesting question than left or right may be who has kids and who doesn't. I knOw before I had a kid that I supported spanking but after actually becoming a father I am against it and have never spanked my son. I don't want to start the spanking debate here, please, as that is a separate topic but my point is that being a parent definitely changes your perspective and I bet is a determinant in this debate.

I've got two kids. And I teach them not to fight, and I don't spank them for punishment. But, I do vigorously enforce punishments for wrongful behavior. I think it is much more important to be consistent and to enforce punishment every time, or the kids will learn to do whatever they want, because they will not be punished. They then grow up into undisciplined adults and have social, and moral problems.

[XingWi]

Having said that, it also has to be said that not all lawsuits are frivolous. Even in cases were it seems utterly frivolous, the facts bear consideration prior to being dismissed. The infamous McDonald's coffee suit comes to mind. If non-judicial options have been exhausted and mediation hasn't resolved the matter, then it is time to take legal action.

My post was not in response to your earlier post. I only later realized that you also had mentioned 'adults'.

I was speaking of people who accuse others of online bullying in anonymous spaces (like multiplay game servers, chat-rooms, forums etc.) and think that they have good grounds for a lawsuit. Accusations of bullying in these cases are reviewed and dealt with on a private level by administrators/owners. Accusations of this kind do not have grounds for a lawsuit unlike accusations of bullying in real-identity spaces like Facebook, emails etc. The latter can have grounds for a lawsuit if it is indeed a bullying behavior and it is shown that the behavior continued after being clearly told to stop in the same space. The former, as already said before, is dealt on a private level.

I am not condoning bullying behavior. I am just trying to clarify a few things for the readers.

Edited June 24, 2014 by XingWi

[+DieChecker]

By the time you are being bullied, it is already to late and you are surrounded. When it is the fourth day in a row, three against one, telling someone to stand up for themselves is the height of stupidity.

I don't believe that is quite true. The cycle of bullying can be broken, especially early on. Just giving up is how it becomes continuous.

If the bullied kid was just to scream as loud as they can every time they are bullied... sure they may get ribbed for being a screaming wuss, or whatever, but they will get the attention of those in authority. And if the screaming happens over and over, those in authority will do something.

The mentality that the victim is to blame is what leads to things like victims being punished for reporting assault. It's easier to ignore a problem if it's just one bully picking on one kid at a time, and it becomes a pain in the neck if the kid starts demanding that the school actually get off its ass and do the "safe environment" and "prepare kids for life" thing, but when it gets to the point that schools are punishing the victims, when it gets to the point that over half the students in the U.S. report being bullied, then the very simple conclusion is that what we have now is not working. You can't claim that the problem is that 70% of the students don't have the balls to fight back.

I agree that despite the Media and Schools saying bullying is a high priority, they seem to not be doing a good job of ending it. I also agree that the Bully needs to be addressed. But, I also think that the bullied needs to part of the solution. Maybe only by screaming if that is all they can do.

[Yamato]

I heard you wanna fight me?

[aztek]

You aren't the only one with experience. I've trained over 400 Sea Cadets, and not all of them where there voluntarily. From what you say, you've observed a few cases in school environments (though it honestly only sounds like talk).

army is not school,. you can't compare that. in school you fight back they back off, i've seen it many times, and other posters here saw same thing, and even experience it. your 400 cadets example as irrelavant as they come.

[Thelaw1]

I heard you wanna fight me?

[media=]

[/media]

I'd lmao if some guy actually took him up on his offer and whooped his a#@ lol!

[aquatus1]

How so? If it was just one fight and some general "this kid is picking on me!" then why bring it to court? If he's been attacked more than once in addition to bullying, then if the school won't or can't do anything do you take it to court.

Well, two points: The first is that both articles clearly states that this is precisely what happened. The bullying was over the course of an entire year, the school was involved, the parents where involved, the police was involved, and now the court are involved.

The second, and the actual cause of my comment, is this:

Bullying is something you have to solve for yourself. Getting others to do it for you won't solve the problem because the kid will probably just target someone else, or target that kid even harder.

Unless you are advocating a far more permanent solution than I want any child going to school with, solving bullying for themselves is not going to make the bully stop bullying others. Even in the best case scenario, that is precisely what is going to happen; a bully will simply decide to bully someone else, and it is pretty much guaranteed that he will do it harder, because he has to make up for the loss of authority from not bullying you.

The only way to stop a bully entirely is to get people with the actual authority (and responsibility) to do it.

Edited June 25, 2014 by aquatus1

[shrooma]

i have to agree with everyone here who said 'fight back'.

growing up expecting other people to sort out your problems for you will only lead to arrested development.

it's why the world is in the s**t state it's in at the moment.

man up, grow a pair, and take control of your life, instead of making others take responsibilty for your own inadequecies.

do you know how crap it is, living in a world where kids receive medals for taking part instead of winning??

[aquatus1]

The problem is that we tell our kids, "You shouldn't fight because you would clearly lose.". There is nothing wrong demanding that fighting be the last opinion, but why just poison a kid's self respect by telling them they couldn't possibly win because they are small, weak, fat, slow, clumsy...

Who the heck tells their kid that? For that matter, why would you need to? The kid already believes it, regardless of whether or not he has actually fought back or not. If he didn't, he wouldn't be a target.

It is the "It is futile to fight back" attitude that is taking over America and turning everyone into a bunch of wimps who just let things happen to them. They get fired... They give up. They have a bad marriage... they give up. They see their neighborhood going to hell... they give up. I hate people that just give up.

I see the real problem as being the false dichotomy between "not fighting" and "giving up". Accussing a child, verbally or otherwise (children can tell) of "giving up" is placing the blame on the victim.

These people have psychological issues not because they were bullied, but because they were taught to give up to the bully.

Or because they were taught that they were required to do something they were neither prepared nor willing to do, and told that fighting back would solve the problem when it didn't, and not fighting back would be a failure on their part, meaning that the desire to play instead of fight was the problem, not that they were getting beat up on a regular basis.

By the way, why are we bringing up psychological issues?

Are these all people who have been bullied? Or people who have been bullied and did nothing about it?

They are all people who were bullied as per the definitions provided in the link. More specifically, they were all the ones who reported being bullied.

I can see kids not reporting bullying in a survey if they did nothing about it. I can't really see kids not reporting bullying if they did do something about it.

Because I was bullied multiple times when I was in school, and I stood up to the bullies and they stopped. So then am I part of the 46%?

If you were bullied multiple times by someone with power over you (be it physical, financial, social, etc), and of course, you reported it, you would be part of the 46%.

Otherwise, you would be someone who was bullied, but didn't report it, meaning that the actual cases of bullying are higher than indicated in the poll.

My opinion is that we are training our kids to not fight anymore and instead to just lay down like a fish and take it, or to go to an authority figure.

My opinion is that some people train their children to see the above as all being one and the same, and that the only two solutions to the problem are fighting or getting beat up.

But, as has been posted here in the form of many personal stories, the authorities take there sweet time doing anything about it. So that leaves fishing out and being constantly bullied.

Or fighting even harder, forcing the adults to take action. Fortunately, parents can help with that.

It is no wonder that bullying is on the upswing... Fighting is on the downswing.

Much like pretty much all social problems that have been recently coming to light, I suspect it isn't that the problems are so much on the upswing as we are simply beginning to understand the true extent of the problem.

And it truly is amazing just how many of these problems are problems almost solely because the non-victims believe the victims are just not trying hard enough.

I don't believe that is quite true. The cycle of bullying can be broken, especially early on. Just giving up is how it becomes continuous.

I disagree. I say that it is already continuous as a default. Bullying isn't a hobby. It's a lifestyle choice.

But that's not quite the point. The point is that giving people advice such as "Stand up for yourself!" is stupid when it is not going to work, such as when one is outnumbered and have already been beaten up several times before.

Bullies do not go away just because you fight back. They only go away when you are more trouble than you are worth, and frankly, few victims are capable of even being a minor nuisance to bullies, even the ones who operate on their own and not in a group.

If the bullied kid was just to scream as loud as they can every time they are bullied... sure they may get ribbed for being a screaming wuss, or whatever, but they will get the attention of those in authority. And if the screaming happens over and over, those in authority will do something.

Wow...

I'll skip the part about just which would be more psychologically damaging to a child, screaming like a wuss or telling a teacher (weren't you lamenting that kids are being taught to give up?). And I sincerely doubt "being ribbed" covers just what would happen to this kid socially were he actually use this particular tactic.

Purely from a tactical viewpoint, the first thing a bully would do is stop the screaming with a swift punch to the boy's solar plexus. If screaming was an expected issue, chances are the punch would precede any actual threat. Bullies, after all, do indulge in a lot of behaviors that results in other children screaming; it isn't the first time they would have to take measures.

But even if they didn't, all you would end up with is a child screaming, the teacher running over to a scared kid standing all alone, and eventually the kid would be known as the one who cried wolf. Calling attention to screaming when nothing has actually happened isn't a good way to call attention to bullying. Hell, accusing someone of doing something that they didn't actually do over and over again can even be arguable called "bullying" as well.

I agree that despite the Media and Schools saying bullying is a high priority, they seem to not be doing a good job of ending it. I also agree that the Bully needs to be addressed. But, I also think that the bullied needs to part of the solution. Maybe only by screaming if that is all they can do.

I don't find your conclusion consistent with your arguments.

Edited June 25, 2014 by aquatus1

[aquatus1]

My post was not in response to your earlier post. I only later realized that you also had mentioned 'adults'.

I was speaking of people who accuse others of online bullying in anonymous spaces (like multiplay game servers, chat-rooms, forums etc.) and think that they have good grounds for a lawsuit. Accusations of bullying in these cases are reviewed and dealt with on a private level by administrators/owners. Accusations of this kind do not have grounds for a lawsuit unlike accusations of bullying in real-identity spaces like Facebook, emails etc. The latter can have grounds for a lawsuit if it is indeed a bullying behavior and it is shown that the behavior continued after being clearly told to stop in the same space. The former, as already said before, is dealt on a private level.

I am not condoning bullying behavior. I am just trying to clarify a few things for the readers.

No objections to the above here. Thanks for the clarification.

And yeah, cyber-bullying is kind of an entire new thing too. I can arguably be described as a cyber-bully myself.

Edited June 25, 2014 by aquatus1

[aquatus1]

army is not school,. you can't compare that.

Well, (1) I didn't, (2) they aren't that different (Sea Cadets is Navy by the way), and (3) Sea Cadets is usually done in schools. It's kind of like Boy Scouts, but there is more focus on sailing than pioneering.

And (4), kids are kids. School, scouts, or cadets, they are kids, and they behave pretty much the same way.

in school you fight back they back off, i've seen it many times, and other posters here saw same thing, and even experience it. your 400 cadets example as irrelavant as they come.

Well, you are wrong, and I will tell you why you are wrong, and you will note that what I tell you will not conflict with anything that you witnessed.

In school you fight, and they back off if you are winning. Or, if they are losing, as in a teacher is coming, or the amount of social authority they have does not merit the amount of effort it will take to continue this particular fight.

They do not back off if they will be able to make you submit. They do not back just because you decided to flail away at them. They do not respect you for fighting back. They do not decide to simply cross you off the list if you actually caused a loss in their authority.

Bullies are not stupid (some are, but in general...). They are actually quite socially knowledgeable for their age. If you decide to take on a bully in public, they will do their best to beat you down because if they don't, they lose control over the rest of the school. The bully has a lot more to lose than the victim does. As do the bullies followers.

Yes, bullies often have a "gang" (usually just friends, but they often get labelled as a gang). Asides from their social influence, bullies also understand the concept of strength in numbers. And the followers understand the concept of residuals. They benefit from the bully's social standing, any material gains, and, of course, emotional support. Which means that few bullies are going to bully all by themselves. Three against one are acceptable, even intelligent, tactics as far as the bully is concerned. And he isn't wrong about that.

So, no, bullies will not back off just because you fight back. They will crush you. They have to. But let's say they notice that the situation isn't in their favor; There's a teacher nearby (their friends will be keeping a lookout), there's too many witnesses, there's a chance you might actually win, there's a chance he will look too bully-ish if he beats you. Again, bullies are smart and socially aware. They regularly dance on the line between being the big man on the playground others wish they could be, and being the psycho kid that needs psychiatric attention. So they do back off if the situation is not in their favor.

Which is not to say they either forgive or forget. They have a reputation to uphold. Particularly if others think the victim has won some sort of victory. The victim will simply be beaten up in a place and time more suitable to the bully's goals. In this manner, the bully gets what he wants, and the adults are satisfied that they handled the bully situation because they didn't get to see the totally unrelated scene that didn't happen on school grounds and is therefore irrelevant to their schools reputation.

As a marketer, a negotiator, and a former teacher and instructor, I try to get my students to view things from multiple perspectives. The adult perspective on bullies and victims is one thing, and apparently the one many here are fixated on. Let's give the victims perspective a glance:

To the victim, being told to not be a victim is utterly useless advice. You don't know why you are being bullied, assuming you even get a reason (which you won't), the reason won't make sense to you (if it didn't make sense, you probably wouldn't be doing it or you can't help it). No one else gives a flip about you being bullied, even all those people standing around watching you get bullied. You feel some serious rage, so much so that you really scare yourself. Some kids aren't able to handle it and that's when you get the reports of baseball bats and shootings (hey, don't complain, you were the ones demanding the kids stop being wussies and fight back), and last but not least, you get some dips who actually tell you this is a growing experience and that you will walk away a better person. This one is actually true, but for the victim, it offers zero to no comfort.

How about the bully? Well, chances are that the bully is just the latest in line. Many, many, bullies are bullies simply because that is the modus operandi they learned at home. They don't know how else to interact with others. This is the story for the majority of the ones that I had to deal with. Literally, part of my job as a Sea Cadet instructor was to teach 14-15 year old things like "You don't have to grab smaller kids by the scruff of the neck to get them to do something". In their experience, this was simply how big people dealt with little people. They had never had anyone tell them otherwise. I am willing to bet that not a single one of the people here who have ever interfered in a bully scenario have explained to the bully that what he was doing was wrong; the base assumption is usually that the bully knows perfectly well what he is doing, and that it is wrong, and that he just doesn't care. People do change, but that comes with experience and wisdom. Children don't have much of either, which is why they need adults to teach them.

The bully isn't going to fight unless he can win quickly and decisively. The victim can try to fight back, but they aren't going to physically hurt the larger or better prepared bully; indeed, a not uncommon strategy is to get the kid to flail away while doing nothing, but absorbing the blows and letting the kid get himself in trouble by being spotted as the offending party by the teachers. After all, fists are not the bully's only weapons. They are often quite capable of verbally destroying their victims. That's kind of a double-whammy; the bully not only exerts control over the victim, he manipulates the victim into thinking he can fight back and raises the other victim's hopes only to see the victim get punished by the authority figures for physically fighting someone who was just talking.

Like I said, bullies can be pretty damn wily.

Fighting back is a losing strategy. It has nothing to do with morals, or ego, or manliness, or...womanliness, I guess (what's the mean girl equivalent of manliness? Alpha girlness? b****nosity?) Simply put, fighting back works if you are just fighting some other kid for some stupid reason in an isolated scenario. It doesn't work against bullies. They are the experts, and you are the ones trying to beat them at their own game on their own turf.