Rlyeh Posted June 25, 2014 #1 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Many Christians do not believe the Creation myth, as an ex-Christian/creationist I wonder what is the explanation of humanity's fundamental flaw? Both the OT and NT imply human nature is wicked, more than just freewill they are incapable of following God's laws. Did God even create humans at all? Edited June 25, 2014 by Rlyeh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+and-then Posted June 25, 2014 #2 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Many Christians do not believe the Creation myth, as an ex-Christian/creationist I wonder what is the explanation of humanity's fundamental flaw? Both the OT and NT imply human nature is wicked, more than just freewill they are incapable of following God's laws. Did God even create humans at all? It's a very good question. I have no idea the answer but I've often wondered if we were intentionally created with such a flaw so that we could grow. If we were created perfectly then we would not be dynamic would we? It seems there has to be tension (if that's the right word) or opposition for things to strengthen and have scale or perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted June 25, 2014 #3 Share Posted June 25, 2014 If I was a Christian, but still recognized the evidence for Cosmology and Evolution to be true? I would see the fall of Man as a metaphor as wanting to leave the protection of God by being tempted by the physical realm.Picture a Child asking the parent to drive a Car, but in this instance the parent being God says "Here's the Keys".Now everyone is on a wild ride limited to the nature of the vehicle.Everyone is just driving causing all sorts of mayhem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted June 25, 2014 Author #4 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) If I was a Christian, but still recognized the evidence for Cosmology and Evolution to be true? I would see the fall of Man as a metaphor as wanting to leave the protection of God by being tempted by the physical realm.Picture a Child asking the parent to drive a Car, but in this instance the parent being God says "Here's the Keys".Now everyone is on a wild ride limited to the nature of the vehicle.Everyone is just driving causing all sorts of mayhem. However that doesn't mean everyone wants this outcome. In Christian dogma, humans are incapable of meeting God's standards even if they wanted to, Christ had to come down to them.When I was a Christian, the Creation myth explained it somewhat; the humans being corrupted by the talking serpent or satan. Since discarding creationism, my Christian beliefs followed. As much as I dislike creationism, I see it more compatible with the Christian dogma than theistic evolution. Edited June 25, 2014 by Rlyeh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted June 25, 2014 Author #5 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) I'm not a big Dawkins fan but I agree with his statement that evolution is incompatible with Christianity. Edit: I don't necessarily agree that Christian theistic evolutionists are deluded, they're trying to reconcile their faith with scientific evidence. Edited June 25, 2014 by Rlyeh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted June 25, 2014 #6 Share Posted June 25, 2014 However that doesn't mean everyone wants this outcome. In Christian dogma, humans are incapable of meeting God's standards even if they wanted to, Christ had to come down to them. When I was a Christian, the Creation myth explained it somewhat; the humans being corrupted by the talking serpent or satan. Since discarding creationism, my Christian beliefs followed. As much as I dislike creationism, I see it more compatible with the Christian dogma than theistic evolution. Yes I can understand what you are saying. The thing is you can make anything fit when you want to believe.Sin and punishment is a very powerful tool that still works to this day. When you are convinced of a made up disease, you will seek the fake cure.If all people looked for real answers, and were able to handle some unknowns, then Religion would be out. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted June 25, 2014 #7 Share Posted June 25, 2014 I'm not a big Dawkins fan but I agree with his statement that evolution is incompatible with Christianity. Edit: I don't necessarily agree that Christian theistic evolutionists are deluded, they're trying to reconcile their faith with scientific evidence. Since you brought up Dawkins. Does a Young Earth Creationist have more faith than an Evolution believing Christian? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perceptivum Posted June 25, 2014 #8 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Many Christians do not believe the Creation myth, as an ex-Christian/creationist I wonder what is the explanation of humanity's fundamental flaw? Both the OT and NT imply human nature is wicked, more than just freewill they are incapable of following God's laws. Did God even create humans at all? Fascinating question and I have recently asked myself that on several occasions. Although the Apocryphon of John is questionable, after reading it I wondered if Yaltabaoth wasn't the actual creator the earth, mankind, and was the god of the Old Testament. Although I am a Christian, I do not believe the earth and everything on it (including man/woman) was created in 6-days. Simply impossible in view of the substantial evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted June 25, 2014 Author #9 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Fascinating question and I have recently asked myself that on several occasions. Although the Apocryphon of John is questionable, after reading it I wondered if Yaltabaoth wasn't the actual creator the earth, mankind, and was the god of the Old Testament. Although I am a Christian, I do not believe the earth and everything on it (including man/woman) was created in 6-days. Simply impossible in view of the substantial evidence. When I became sceptical of Christianity I found Gnosticism and the concept of the demiurge fascinating but not completely believable. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perceptivum Posted June 25, 2014 #10 Share Posted June 25, 2014 ...Gnosticism and the concept of the demiurge fascinating but not completely believable. I would agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted June 25, 2014 #11 Share Posted June 25, 2014 The whole disconnect with nature and science is what really what did it for me with the Abrahamic religions and made my atheist father a happy man. The idea that we special and are not part of nature is ludacrest. The only sin our ancestors did was climbing down from the trees. The Earth was here along time before we came along and it will be here long after we are gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnaka Posted June 25, 2014 #12 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Fascinating question and I have recently asked myself that on several occasions. Although the Apocryphon of John is questionable, after reading it I wondered if Yaltabaoth wasn't the actual creator the earth, mankind, and was the god of the Old Testament. Although I am a Christian, I do not believe the earth and everything on it (including man/woman) was created in 6-days. Simply impossible in view of the substantial evidence. Because there's no time in spirit, you are correct. Six days to spirit is a looong time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted June 25, 2014 #13 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Obvious Bronze age mumbo jumbo is obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeWitz Posted June 25, 2014 #14 Share Posted June 25, 2014 (edited) Obvious Bronze age mumbo jumbo is obvious. Edited June 25, 2014 by DeWitz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnaka Posted June 25, 2014 #15 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Obvious Bronze age mumbo jumbo is obvious. Cant talk now, gotta get back to the forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted June 25, 2014 #16 Share Posted June 25, 2014 Cant talk now, gotta get back to the forge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Paranoid Android Posted June 26, 2014 #17 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Many Christians do not believe the Creation myth, as an ex-Christian/creationist I wonder what is the explanation of humanity's fundamental flaw? Both the OT and NT imply human nature is wicked, more than just freewill they are incapable of following God's laws. Did God even create humans at all? If the Bible God is real and he created us perfect with the inability to sin, you'd be incapable of asking this question. There would be no difference of opinion, no choice in what you did or did not believe. And yet somehow you find this a flaw in the belief of the Christian God!?!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted June 26, 2014 Author #18 Share Posted June 26, 2014 If the Bible God is real and he created us perfect with the inability to sin, you'd be incapable of asking this question. There would be no difference of opinion, no choice in what you did or did not believe. And yet somehow you find this a flaw in the belief of the Christian God!?!? If the Bible God created us perfect with the inability to sin, that would be incompatible with the scientific evidence and understanding of cosmology and biology.Are you saying God created us imperfect so we'd come up with different stories? What ever happened to just the facts? And what gives you the impression perfection implies lack of choice? Does God lack choice? Does Jesus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Paranoid Android Posted June 26, 2014 #19 Share Posted June 26, 2014 If the Bible God created us perfect with the inability to sin, that would be incompatible with the scientific evidence and understanding of cosmology and biology. Are you saying God created us imperfect so we'd come up with different stories? What ever happened to just the facts? And what gives you the impression perfection implies lack of choice? Does God lack choice? Does Jesus? I'm saying that God created us as imperfect creatures, nothing more and nothing less. If we were perfect, we'd know the same thing about God, and we'd all believe that same version, there is scope for choice in action, but you'd be unable to argue anything about God because we'd all agree on what the nature of God is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted June 26, 2014 #20 Share Posted June 26, 2014 That word "perfect" is a tough one. What makes something perfect? A "perfect cocker spaniel" is I assume one that exactly meets the specifications of the American Kennel Society, or whoever it is that decides such things. If we were perfect would we have knowledge of God? Being finite we could only have partial knowledge, imperfect, so we would not have any knowledge, but that would not be perfect either. Could a perfect person lie? What if a lie was necessary to save a life? Either way the perfect person has to be imperfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted June 26, 2014 Author #21 Share Posted June 26, 2014 I'm saying that God created us as imperfect creatures, nothing more and nothing less. If we were perfect, we'd know the same thing about God, and we'd all believe that same version, there is scope for choice in action, but you'd be unable to argue anything about God because we'd all agree on what the nature of God is. Right, so because we aren't perfect "God did it" is an adequate excuse explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros of Skaro Posted June 26, 2014 #22 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Youtube search "Cooter report". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
+Paranoid Android Posted June 26, 2014 #23 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Right, so because we aren't perfect "God did it" is an adequate excuse explanation. It is my view that God created the universe, yes. It's a view that hasn't let me down since I converted close to 15 years ago now. What you believe is very different, though, and you have every right to believe such. I'm not forcing you to believe, just explaining what my views are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omnaka Posted June 26, 2014 #24 Share Posted June 26, 2014 Imperfect, is perfect. Leaves room to evolve. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted June 26, 2014 #25 Share Posted June 26, 2014 It is my view that God created the universe, yes. It's a view that hasn't let me down since I converted close to 15 years ago now. What you believe is very different, though, and you have every right to believe such. I'm not forcing you to believe, just explaining what my views are. This strikes me as evasive and intellectually dishonest -- just an excuse for not producing evidence. Can you imagine the reaction if at a scientific meeting some guy got up and had a theory and then concluded with such a statement? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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