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OverSword

Nigerian mall bombed 21+ dead

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Posted (edited)

This is sad. Apparently you just don't want to gather in public for a predictable crowd such as watching a cup match.

An explosion in a Nigerian shopping mall has killed at least 21 people just an hour before the national football team played Argentina in the World Cup.

Witnesses said the blast left body parts scattered around the Emab Plaza in an upmarket district of Abuja, as billows of black smoke could be seen from a mile away.

It turned what should have been a national celebration into a national tragedy as Nigeria secured its place in the World Cup's knockout stages for the first time since 1998.

It came a week after 14 people were killed by a suicide bomb while watching the Brazil v Mexico match in Damaturu, Nigeria.

Nigeria coach Stephen Keshi said after tonight's match: 'How much of a victory is football going to give for those lives? What are they doing these guys? They did it the first game, and they now they did it again, it is sad.'

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Edited by OverSword
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The article goes on to say that the attack bears all the hallmarks of (guess who) Boko Haram. Yep, it's suspected that this is likely the work of the same terrorists who recently kidnapped a group of young school girls. These guys are pure evil.

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Looks like more Peace being spread by our friends in the Religion of Peace.

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Looks like more Peace being spread by our friends in the Religion of Peace.

No, this comes from those who are using religion for their own perverted goals. We need to keep in mind that terrorists aren't the majority of muslim people.

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Posted (edited)

No, this comes from those who are using religion for their own perverted goals. We need to keep in mind that terrorists aren't the majority of muslim people.

It seems it has made quite a mark in some countries.

If one muslim can kill 21 innocent people because of their religion, then that is 21 innocent deaths too many and it is no excuse by saying "but they are not all like that". we know they are not all like that, but the murderer was still a fanatical muslim.

Edited by freetoroam
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It seems it has made quite a mark in some countries.

If one muslim can kill 21 innocent people because of their religion, then that is 21 innocent deaths too many and it is no excuse by saying "but they are not all like that". the murderer was still a muslim.

And I highly suspect that many of the people killed in the shopping center and the girls that were kidnapped are muslim as well. The idea that an entire group/religion should be denounced due to the actions of a few is illogical and rather bigoted.

The bottom line is that not all muslims are terrorists. We need to keep this in mind.

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And I highly suspect that many of the people killed in the shopping center and the girls that were kidnapped are muslim as well. The idea that an entire group/religion should be denounced due to the actions of a few is illogical and rather bigoted.

The bottom line is that not all muslims are terrorists. We need to keep this in mind.

I agree, keep it in mind, but we must also keep in mind that the terrorists fanatics are also muslims. Its a catch 22, we can see what is happening in some countries where the muslims are murdering each other. After all these years and there seems to be no end to the terrorism and murdering of innocent people, in fact, it seems to be escalating.

England has now a problem in certain muslim schools, what do we say? muslims are not all like that? how is it escalating here in a western country?

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Terrorism is a global problem, but this particular thread is about the bombing at the Nigerian shopping center. In this case it's highly suspected that the Boko Haram group is behind the attack. What/who is behind other acts of terrorism certainly varies. However, we should try and keep the discussion on this particular bombing.

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It seems it has made quite a mark in some countries.

"Terrorist aren't the majority of Muslim people" has made a mark in some countries? Can you clarify this statement?

If one muslim can kill 21 innocent people because of their religion, then that is 21 innocent deaths too many

Why limit it to muslims? The latest school shooting in the U.S. had 20 victims, and they don't get much more innocent. Anyone killing innocents who have no idea why they are being killed has something wrong upstairs.

and it is no excuse by saying "but they are not all like that".

I agree, it isn't an excuse. An excuse would assume that the accusation had validity to begin with. What the statement above points out is that attempting to place the blame on something that is only generally associated with an evil act is as wrong for people on this side of the argument to do as it was for people on the bombers side to do. Tangential association is never a justified reason for direct attack.

After all, that exact reasoning is why they bombed the mall in the first place.

we know they are not all like that, but the murderer was still a fanatical muslim.

Yes, but the problem here is that you are emphasizing the religious angle, and specifically focusing on the muslim angle, where the problem is not with muslims. The problem is with fanatics.

Religion, sports, politics, you name, it has its followers and it has its fanatics. I don't have any numbers, but I would be willing to bet the number of people willing to do violence to innocents among the followers is nowhere near the percentage of the fanatics who are willing to commit violence.

Most muslims, like most anyone, are quite happy to go about their lives, with their religion playing a personally and socially significant role, but one best taken with moderation and not worth getting obsessive about. Just because a muslim touches his head to the ground five times a day doesn't mean he is a devoted and devout follower, no more than going to church every Sunday means one is devoted to the church. There are billions of people all around the world who take their religion with just enough seriousness to call it a religion, but not much more, and they like to go shopping ,and watch sports, and play with their kids.

And then you got the ***hat fanatics, who aren't happy unless everyone is as miserable as they are. The guys who take their faith entirely too seriously (and I am not limiting this to religion either) are the ones who inevitably end up causing all the problems. It boggles me how the same fanaticism allows a tiny group to control a larger group simply because the larger group doesn't consider the subject worth getting worked up about.

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Posted (edited)

Boko haram warned that this would happen, they already bombed another group of soccer fans on the 18th June here is the

link

http://edition.cnn.c....html?hpt=hp_t3

This is not going to stop and the venues where it is going to occur have already been highlighted by Boko bonkers so why is security not

all over it? These latest victims should not have died. Nigeria is doing absolutely jack about dealing with these nutters, it's frustrating

watching a government so inept at protecting it's citizens.

Edited by libstaK
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Posted (edited)

Looks like more Peace being spread by our friends in the Religion of Peace.

With respect, they are extremist murderers spreading nothing but blood. Nothing more.

Same as the 'heroes' who did this: http://en.wikipedia....i/Omagh_bombing

Edited by Eldorado
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With respect, they are extremist murderers spreading nothing but blood. Nothing more.

Same as the 'heroes' who did this: http://en.wikipedia....i/Omagh_bombing

Wait a sec El. I didn't know the IRA were Muslim.

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Wait a sec El. I didn't know the IRA were Muslim.

They're not. And neither are Boko Haram. Calling yourself Muslim, or Roman Catholic does't make you one. Your actions will determine that and if you murder indiscrminately you are no Muslim and no Christian.

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They're not. And neither are Boko Haram. Calling yourself Muslim, or Roman Catholic does't make you one. Your actions will determine that and if you murder indiscrminately you are no Muslim and no Christian.

El, I like your way of thinking here. Indeed, if anyone is going to proclaim that they're religious then go out and kidnap and murder...no way are they really religious people.

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Exactly. Too many people blame religion for the actions of humans. You can often read in the religious forums ignorant spiteful people saying 'Christians/Muslims do or say that which prove Christianity\Islam are terrible.'

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They're not. And neither are Boko Haram. Calling yourself Muslim, or Roman Catholic does't make you one. Your actions will determine that and if you murder indiscrminately you are no Muslim and no Christian.

Exactly, and lets remember these muslim on muslim attacks. Loco Boko warned muslims not to watch the world cup or there would be blood spilled. He is the enemy of mankind, including his fellow muslims because he is an evil corrupt human being.

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Posted (edited)

"Terrorist aren't the majority of Muslim people" has made a mark in some countries? Can you clarify this statement?

It is a tad confusing,but I take the meaning to be that the minority of fundamentalist Muslim people have impacted the majority of the world.

Why limit it to muslims? The latest school shooting in the U.S. had 20 victims, and they don't get much more innocent. Anyone killing innocents who have no idea why they are being killed has something wrong upstairs.

Because those people who kill indiscriminately are mentally ill, and need to donate their brains to science to see what is wrong with them, Fundamentalist terrorists believe it is their divine right to wipe filth, aka dhimmi, from the face of the planet so it can be cleansed for good Muslim people. Both have something wrong upstairs, one is a sickness, the other is induced by religious teachings. We have the ability to protest acts of God, but not crazy people. As a compassionate society, we are compelled to "help" the crazy people and tolerate the religious murderers. The Catholic Religion took on the pedophile charges as a whole. - and tried to deny them as a whole - and got caught out as a whole. Religious leaders are supposed to be accountable for their "flock" aren't they?

I agree, it isn't an excuse. An excuse would assume that the accusation had validity to begin with. What the statement above points out is that attempting to place the blame on something that is only generally associated with an evil act is as wrong for people on this side of the argument to do as it was for people on the bombers side to do. Tangential association is never a justified reason for direct attack.

It is not tangential though, just well masked in times of crisis. The leaders of the Muslim religion are the ones creating unrest and calling for Jihad. Sheik Hilali here in Australia said women DESERVE to be raped because they do not cover up enough, Anthony Mundine, indigenous boxer turned Muslim and at one time an Aussie hero said the US deserved 911, Ikebal Patel fronted Australian Parliament calling for Shari'ah Law, Feiz Mohammad has been caught trying to draft Muslim Youth for Jihad and the less said about Choudry the better.

These are the leaders elected within the Muslim religion. They are a disgrace to mankind. Does that not make the accusation valid?

After all, that exact reasoning is why they bombed the mall in the first place.

They would consider any Muslim that is not radical to be non-muslim. Easy way to personally validate killing indiscriminately.

Yes, but the problem here is that you are emphasizing the religious angle, and specifically focusing on the muslim angle, where the problem is not with muslims. The problem is with fanatics.

As mentioned with the Catholics taking responsibility, should not these so called "good Muslims" simply not state they are not Muslims? Is there no leader who can oust them as distinctly as the Baptist Church states in every public place that the Westboro movement is not Baptist and they refuse to acknowledge them as Baptists? Should not the leaders state in public these men do not follow the Muslim way and are outcasts? They rely on pride so much, it is hard to not see such having a decent impact?

I think many people would be more comfortable with the Muslim religion if it made moves to distance itself from the vile practises we have all come to fear?

If Muslims wanted a quiet peaceful life, one would expect they would stop forcing Mosques to go up in residential areas. Despite loud protest, these things just keep popping up. Every aspect of this so called religion is confrontational. And many wonder why there is controversy!! Even JW's know the meaning of the word NO better than this lot!

Religion, sports, politics, you name, it has its followers and it has its fanatics. I don't have any numbers, but I would be willing to bet the number of people willing to do violence to innocents among the followers is nowhere near the percentage of the fanatics who are willing to commit violence.

But after the game, you can go to work with your opposition, and give him a friendly ragging the next day. These fundamentalists commit mass murder. Whilst a barney might be common at the footy, flying planes into buildings is something that should just never ever happen. Let alone have a group of people sick enough to celebrate that murderous act. Many Muslims said 911 was deserved, that alone says more than enough I feel.

Most muslims, like most anyone, are quite happy to go about their lives, with their religion playing a personally and socially significant role, but one best taken with moderation and not worth getting obsessive about. Just because a muslim touches his head to the ground five times a day doesn't mean he is a devoted and devout follower, no more than going to church every Sunday means one is devoted to the church. There are billions of people all around the world who take their religion with just enough seriousness to call it a religion, but not much more, and they like to go shopping ,and watch sports, and play with their kids.

There cannot be moderation in the Muslim religion as far as I know - how does a Muslim compromise prayer time? It's all or nothing isn't it? It's not like Christianity where some churches welcome gay people, others not. There is no tolerance in Islam.

Christians do not go to Church every Sunday and pray to God that they will cut of the heads and fingers of any non christian, and then have fundamentalist faction that actually carry out these threats. Uneducated people like creationists do enough damage to young minds, the Muslim religion destroys much more than that. Bodies rights hope and faith.

Any Muslim that reads the Hadith does. How they can do that, and then shake your hand is beyond me. Such displays of faith indicate reverence, and state they are the religion of peace but will cut heads and fingers off if you are not "one of them", it seems a massive contradiction to me? It seems to be persecution reverse? How do I look a Muslim in the eye if he did just touch his head to the ground knowing full well he prayed for unbelievers like me to live in subservience to them or die?

And then you got the ***hat fanatics, who aren't happy unless everyone is as miserable as they are. The guys who take their faith entirely too seriously (and I am not limiting this to religion either) are the ones who inevitably end up causing all the problems. It boggles me how the same fanaticism allows a tiny group to control a larger group simply because the larger group doesn't consider the subject worth getting worked up about.

The larger groups get worked up because it only took a handful of men to kill 3,000. I think Sam Harris put it best when he said

"The position of the Muslim community in the face of all provocations seems to be: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we will kill you."

Which is what Surah 9.29 says.

The world is a different place since 911. When I was 20, I didn't even know Muslims were different. Had I gone to a Muslim country that young, as a larrikin I might well have said something cocky about the faith and ended up dead. It's too serious, in this day and age, we should all be grown up enough to refuse to kill for Gods. We just do not need them anymore. No two ways about it, Boko Haram, Taliban, any major fundamentalist group that has mass murdered in recent time seems to be connected to the Muslim religion. I feel the fear and loathing is warranted.

I simply do not believe in a "moderate Muslim" there are ones that only say they will kill for their God, and ones that do kill for their God.

Edited by psyche101

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It is a tad confusing,but I take the meaning to be that the minority of fundamentalist Muslim people have impacted the majority of the world.

I'll wait for his clarification, although I don't believe one will be forthcoming, nor do I believe he put a great deal of thought into it.

Because those people who kill indiscriminately are mentally ill, and need to donate their brains to science to see what is wrong with them, Fundamentalist terrorists believe it is their divine right to wipe filth, aka dhimmi, from the face of the planet so it can be cleansed for good Muslim people. Both have something wrong upstairs, one is a sickness, the other is induced by religious teachings. We have the ability to protest acts of God, but not crazy people. As a compassionate society, we are compelled to "help" the crazy people and tolerate the religious murderers. The Catholic Religion took on the pedophile charges as a whole. - and tried to deny them as a whole - and got caught out as a whole. Religious leaders are supposed to be accountable for their "flock" aren't they?

Beats me. Are they? I always understood the reasoning behind their authority to be the exact opposite.

But getting back to the argument, I see nothing to support the notion that we should limit the condemnation to Islam. The Judeo-Christian religion did it in its time, and various belief systems that didn't even require a command from their divinities were also guilty of mass murder. The problem is not Islam in general. The problem is the people using Islam as either reason or excuse to do what they do.

It is not tangential though, just well masked in times of crisis. The leaders of the Muslim religion are the ones creating unrest and calling for Jihad. Sheik Hilali here in Australia said women DESERVE to be raped because they do not cover up enough, Anthony Mundine, indigenous boxer turned Muslim and at one time an Aussie hero said the US deserved 911, Ikebal Patel fronted Australian Parliament calling for Shari'ah Law, Feiz Mohammad has been caught trying to draft Muslim Youth for Jihad and the less said about Choudry the better.

These are the leaders elected within the Muslim religion. They are a disgrace to mankind. Does that not make the accusation valid?

No, it does not, because it ignores the leaders in Islam who voice the exact opposite sentiments. People like Mirza Masroor Ahmad, the fifth Caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, who condemns acts of violence in the name of Allah always, not just after bombings, and who calls for stronger interfaith relationships, separation of church and state, and greater religious freedoms. People like Mustafa Ceric, the Grand Mufti of Bosnia, and John Esposito, the director of the Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University, who got together 138 of the more high-profile and influential Muslim leaders to send a peace message to Pope Benedict XVI (that's 14, right?), pointing out 29 pages worth of similarities between the two religions and asking to meet and search for more common grounds.

Peace isn't as loud, as violent, or as emotional, as war. It takes great effort, patience, and humility, and often the results are nowhere near as tangible or gratifying as violence. That doesn't mean that they aren't there.

They would consider any Muslim that is not radical to be non-muslim. Easy way to personally validate killing indiscriminately.

Exactly! That sort of mindset is the enemy, right there! That is what causes all the problems.

As mentioned with the Catholics taking responsibility,

That's a rather generous description of their behavior. How many decades did they ignore the problem, followed by the many years of actively hiding evidence of it, followed by many years of trying to take care of it quietly, till now when they are backed into a corner and have to publicly apologize?

-should not these so called "good Muslims" simply not state they are not Muslims?

Not sure about your pronoun use there.

Is there no leader who can oust them as distinctly as the Baptist Church states in every public place that the Westboro movement is not Baptist and they refuse to acknowledge them as Baptists? Should not the leaders state in public these men do not follow the Muslim way and are outcasts? They rely on pride so much, it is hard to not see such having a decent impact?

Hundreds do. You evidently haven't heard of them. I haven't heard of any particular Baptist leader condemning the Westboro movement, but there is no doubt in my mind that they exist. After all, Baptist do not follow the tenets the Westboro church claims. Considering the amount of Baptists out there, it would be pretty damn obvious if they did, and it would be a very scary world.

Now think about how many Muslims are out there. Compare them to how many terrorists are out there. Why would you possibly assume that the terrorists, being such a radically small percentage of the entire population, somehow represent the whole?

I think many people would be more comfortable with the Muslim religion if it made moves to distance itself from the vile practises we have all come to fear?

The same applies to anything. But it won't change too much. After all, people don't usually bother remembering the good stuff.

If Muslims wanted a quiet peaceful life, one would expect they would stop forcing Mosques to go up in residential areas. Despite loud protest, these things just keep popping up. Every aspect of this so called religion is confrontational. And many wonder why there is controversy!! Even JW's know the meaning of the word NO better than this lot!

Again, are you using isolated incidents (I'm assuming there is more than one) to paint the entire population? Are you claiming that Muslims in general do this to a significantly greater degree than members of Judeo-Catholic religions?

But after the game, you can go to work with your opposition, and give him a friendly ragging the next day.

No. That's the difference between fans and fanatics. Fanatics don't let go. They aren't friends with people on the opposing team. They don't take it well when their team looses. Yes, fans have killed. Not with the same directed action as religions, of course, but frankly, I suspect that is more due to the lack of justification than any inherent peaceful desires. Take a place like ancient Rome, where chariot racing held greater fanatical passion than the gods, and you end up with the Nika riots that ultimately ended with a body count in the tens of thousands.

These fundamentalists commit mass murder. Whilst a barney might be common at the footy, flying planes into buildings is something that should just never ever happen. Let alone have a group of people sick enough to celebrate that murderous act. Many Muslims said 911 was deserved, that alone says more than enough I feel.

Do you have any idea how many comments where made by Americans saying the exact same thing after the 2011 Tohoku quake here in Japan?

*******s exist in every country. It doesn't even require fanaticism.

There cannot be moderation in the Muslim religion as far as I know - how does a Muslim compromise prayer time? It's all or nothing isn't it? It's not like Christianity where some churches welcome gay people, others not. There is no tolerance in Islam.

Okay, it's getting a bit uncomfortable talking to you. In the same way a Catholic will bow his head and wonder how the game is doing while pretending to pray, so does a Muslim touch his head to the floor and wonder what he'll have for dinner that evening. Shops close during prayer call, and most of the time (yep, "most") the owner and staff move to the back and have a quiet smoke till they can re-open again.

Muslims are no more devout than Catholics. They just pretend to be, just like Catholics.

Christians do not go to Church every Sunday and pray to God that they will cut of the heads and fingers of any non christian, and then have fundamentalist faction that actually carry out these threats.

Not in 1st world countries. At least, not anymore. It's not uncommon in lesser civilized countries, however. We aren't quite past the barbaric stage in the global world just yet.

Uneducated people like creationists do enough damage to young minds, the Muslim religion destroys much more than that. Bodies rights hope and faith.

Nonsense. There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today, and countless billions more have come and gone. They are not a damaged population; their youth does not spend the day wishing they had an infidel to kill. It is the fanatics who abuse the children under their care who do that.

I'll skip to the end, as the rest of the post is pretty much a repeat of the above theme.

I simply do not believe in a "moderate Muslim" there are ones that only say they will kill for their God, and ones that do kill for their God.

Then perhaps, instead of relying on belief, you should go out and make an effort to find out what Muslims are actually like. Because I will tell you right now, that I am frankly a bit shocked at hearing you apply such a negative stereotype so broadly while not showing an ounce of hesitation at accepting face value beliefs over actual investigative conclusions. It isn't worthy of a thinker.

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Posted (edited)

Beats me. Are they? I always understood the reasoning behind their authority to be the exact opposite.

But getting back to the argument, I see nothing to support the notion that we should limit the condemnation to Islam. The Judeo-Christian religion did it in its time, and various belief systems that didn't even require a command from their divinities were also guilty of mass murder. The problem is not Islam in general. The problem is the people using Islam as either reason or excuse to do what they do.

As far as I understand, terrorists see the world as their flock, and feel compelled to clean it up for God. Or rather, using God as an excuse so they may take advantage of everything around them.

But more than 400 years ago, the Crusades ended. That is highly significant. This is why Christianity is seen as benevolent alongside Islam, all the ugly parts of Christianity that linger to this day are hidden by even worse actions inspired by Islam. The Koran gives one the freedom to kill at will as it is easily interpreted as horrifically violent, which we see when Fundamentalists interpret it literally. A very large part of Islam never "grew up" and I cannot see that it ever will as it is based in violent teachings. How can it be the religion of peace with 1.5 billion people reading Surah 9.29 - Fight Those Who Do Not Believe?

No, it does not, because it ignores the leaders in Islam who voice the exact opposite sentiments. People like Mirza Masroor Ahmad, the fifth Caliph of the Ahmadiyya Muslim community, who condemns acts of violence in the name of Allah always, not just after bombings, and who calls for stronger interfaith relationships, separation of church and state, and greater religious freedoms. People like Mustafa Ceric, the Grand Mufti of Bosnia, and John Esposito, the director of the Prince Alwaleed Bin Talal Center for Muslim-Christian Understanding at Georgetown University, who got together 138 of the more high-profile and influential Muslim leaders to send a peace message to Pope Benedict XVI (that's 14, right?), pointing out 29 pages worth of similarities between the two religions and asking to meet and search for more common grounds.

Peace isn't as loud, as violent, or as emotional, as war. It takes great effort, patience, and humility, and often the results are nowhere near as tangible or gratifying as violence. That doesn't mean that they aren't there.

The people you picked are a very long way from me, the people I picked as Australian leaders, Muftis' Imam's, selected individuals that represent the religion os Islam, and that is who said women deserve to be raped Hilali was an Imam of the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney and an Australian Sunni Muslim leader at the time he said that. Feiz Mohammed was in Sydney Streets recruiting for Jihad, Ikebal Patel in Parliament calling for Shari'ah, these are everyday occurrences in my face that I fear. Not some line on the Internet written by someone in Bosnia, but my backyard. Surely you can understand that the words of a man in Bosnia offer no comfort to an Islamic leader saying Australian women deserve rape?

And looking at these people, they do not seem so peaceful as made out, for instance, Geert Wilders is controversial, no doubt about it, but Mirza Masroor Ahmad was unable to control himself when Geert fired him up about having less Moroccans in the Netherlands. Whilst Roland van Vliet took a more balanced view - which one would expect form a high representative of the religion of peace, said:

Listen carefully – You, your party and every other person like you will ultimately be destroyed. But the religion of Islam and the message of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) will remain forever. No worldly power, no matter how powerful and no matter how much hatred they bear towards Islam, will ever succeed in erasing our religion.

Mate, them's fighting words. He then recovered himself and said - we will destroy you by prayer. But his true colours came out, he is ready to kill Geert for having an opposing opinion. But even then, he did not say he would pray to change Geert's heart, he said he would destroy him. That's not benevolent or peaceful.

Also - Mustafa Ceric headed the Zagreb office of the Third World Relief Agency that sent funds and financed arms shipments to the Bosnian mujahedeen and which had extensive ties to a variety of Islamist groups and individuals including Osama Bin Laden and Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman. As head of the agency, he had to be aware that he is assisting fundamentalists, which in turn indicates that his agenda is to support Islam and it's ultimate goal to make the world Islamic. Which several leaders have said is a good idea as far as they are concerned. Hilali amongst them.

And didn't John Esposito tell his students : "I owe my Lexus and my career to the Ayatollah Khomeini," ?

If that was a joke, it failed, jokes should be funny.

But you see what I am saying here? That is not what I am seeing here in my own backyard, and a few people scattered across the globe claiming to be all for peace show a hidden agenda that is less than honest or reflecting of the public announcements. How is one supposed to have trust in something that hurts people, and even any remorse seems very false considering those moments when the "real" Islam is revealed?

I do not understand why the Muslim leaders wrote to the Pope asking for more common grounds? It is well known that the Koran and the Bible have many similarities, and are supposed to be worshiping the same god. What exactly was the point there? Should they not put that effort into ending terrorism in Islam? What significant issues between the Catholic and Muslim religions requires this resolve? Dead people and pregnant women on death row seem more pressing issues?

Exactly! That sort of mindset is the enemy, right there! That is what causes all the problems.

You are not us, you are one of them right?

Is that not what the aforementioned Surah 9.29 says exactly? Is that not Islam itself?

That's a rather generous description of their behavior. How many decades did they ignore the problem, followed by the many years of actively hiding evidence of it, followed by many years of trying to take care of it quietly, till now when they are backed into a corner and have to publicly apologize?

That is a fair point, it probably is generous, but not the point I was raising, which is the Catholic Religion did try to contain this crime. They took accountability form the onset, but I admit it was done very badly. Islam does not try to take care of terrorism at all, they just pretend it has nothing to do with Islam, which we are told is a religion of peace. But that is not what I am seeing. I am seeing people hurt, I am seeing wars, I am seeing pregnant women giving birth in chains on death row for apostasy all in the name is Islam. That is not a religion of peace. The people who put Meriam Ibrahim on death row for being raised as a Christian are not terrorists, they are Islamic Leaders carrying out Shari'ah law. How can they do this to another human being in the name is Islam?

Not sure about your pronoun use there.

Fair call!

Should not these so called "good Muslims" simply not state that terrorist fundamentalists are not in fact Muslims at all?

But your input has had some impact on me, I would rather see Islam do something good for the people of this planet after being the source of so much harm.

Hundreds do. You evidently haven't heard of them. I haven't heard of any particular Baptist leader condemning the Westboro movement, but there is no doubt in my mind that they exist. After all, Baptist do not follow the tenets the Westboro church claims. Considering the amount of Baptists out there, it would be pretty damn obvious if they did, and it would be a very scary world.

Now think about how many Muslims are out there. Compare them to how many terrorists are out there. Why would you possibly assume that the terrorists, being such a radically small percentage of the entire population, somehow represent the whole?

Well Shari'ah controls much of that country, and I see many Muslims calling for it to be global. Shari'ah is part of Islam, and it is barbaric, harmful, and backwards. If they are all calling for this barbaric and violent system, how is that peaceful? I do not know if 1.5 billion Muslims are for this, but I know the larger majority is. That is terrorism to me - a threat to my daily lifestyle. As previously mentioned, Islamic leaders have approached Australian Parliament and lobbied for it. I'll die before I submit to Shari'ah. Thomas Becket began the movement to end this extent of religious power by Christianity about 900 years ago. How is Islam not a reprisal of outdated values and barbaric extreme punishments that we have long put behind us? Why would anyone want to return to those dark days?

Terrorists are the shock value of Islam, but it's very nature does not show me a religion of peace at all.

The same applies to anything. But it won't change too much. After all, people don't usually bother remembering the good stuff.

You are only remembered for the last bad thing you did. Yes, Heard that and it is true.

That's the thing - what good stuff? Rather than seeing Islam reprimand these people, which I admit was what I wanted to see in the previous post, you have provoked me into re-evaluating that as I would like to see Islam do something good for the world. This is something I have never witnessed. I know from the overthrow of the Shah of Iran right through to 911 and on to this Boko Haram terrorism, it's all I have ever seen of Islam - violence, war and people hurting. I have seen people who follow Islam tell me it is great, and one should embrace it, I see none of that at all, and never have.

Again, are you using isolated incidents (I'm assuming there is more than one) to paint the entire population? Are you claiming that Muslims in general do this to a significantly greater degree than members of Judeo-Catholic religions?

Yes, again in my immediate vicinity, in very recent times we have seen Mosques go up in Carrara, Worongary and Palm Beach. All have been protested heavily by locals and with with petitions yet they seem to go ahead.

And it is not simply being uncomfortable about Islam being in your backyard. Which I admit is a factor. As you know, Prayer is 5 times a day. This increases traffic dramatically to a residential area, and Prayer starts at 4am on external loudspeakers. Nobody wants to be woken up at 4am by Islamic Prayer. Not to mention there is unrest, and due to the fact that this establishment is specifically voted against, there will be vandalism issues. It is just stupid to go ahead in residential areas, yet despite protest, petitions and pleading, no avail. The council labels the protesters as racist and does not address the real world issues. It tends to leave one with the very strong impression that Islam is also partial to graft and corruption. It also puts the term "racist" seem less believable or almost benign when the people being accused are not being racist at all. It's a culture clash, noting to do with ones place of birth or skin colour.

And yes, significantly higher numbers. Traditional religions are well established, and the only one (Christian Church) in my area that has gone up in the last 5 years is in Bushland about 10 minutes drive form any specific residential area, and on a large property. With no 4am prayers. The last Christian Church in my area to go up before that would have been back in about 1998. It still is no closer than a good half kilometre from the closest residential area.

Now if I was to go to any Shari'ah governed country and tried the same, I would be pushing up daisies. Every time the Pope visits, there is controversy and protest, but nobody dies.

No. That's the difference between fans and fanatics. Fanatics don't let go. They aren't friends with people on the opposing team. They don't take it well when their team looses. Yes, fans have killed. Not with the same directed action as religions, of course, but frankly, I suspect that is more due to the lack of justification than any inherent peaceful desires. Take a place like ancient Rome, where chariot racing held greater fanatical passion than the gods, and you end up with the Nika riots that ultimately ended with a body count in the tens of thousands.

Christians do let go though, and they will take anyone into their church, Islam has a woman on death row for being raised Christian. That like fans and fanatics isn't it?

Do you have any idea how many comments where made by Americans saying the exact same thing after the 2011 Tohoku quake here in Japan?

*******s exist in every country. It doesn't even require fanaticism.

No, I did not know, and still don't and frankly, I have to say I am a little stunned that anyone in the US would be so heartless. Is it old Veteran's carrying war time grudges? If that is the case, one could understand such comments, I could never claim to even be able to imagine the horrors some of those men saw.

But two wrongs do not make a right, Islam heralding 911 as just is beyond comprehension, and illustrates that this is anything but a religion of peace. The mindset is violence.

Okay, it's getting a bit uncomfortable talking to you. In the same way a Catholic will bow his head and wonder how the game is doing while pretending to pray, so does a Muslim touch his head to the floor and wonder what he'll have for dinner that evening. Shops close during prayer call, and most of the time (yep, "most") the owner and staff move to the back and have a quiet smoke till they can re-open again.

Muslims are no more devout than Catholics. They just pretend to be, just like Catholics.

Fair enough, religion is an uncomfortable subject.

I just cannot see that. Catholics might wear a cross, but do not cover up in Burkas in places like Australia where the heart makes such plainly ridiculous, just to please some imaginary being.

A show aired here on ABC (Australian Broadcasting Commission, not the US one) called Jihad Sheila's. A "Sheila" is Aussie slang for a female. These were Australian women who converted to Islam. They came on and told their stories, and they do not make out that the communities are anything less than entirely devout. They actually supported terrorism, and when asked about 911 they too said they don't care about the people who died, they cared about the Afghanis who suffered in war. They do not give a damn about their own country or our allies, and focus on terrorist solutions. It was an eye opening and rather shocking expose.

If Islamic people are so easy going with their religion, why is there such controversy over removing a Burka or Hijab in a bank, or to have a licence photo? A Christian will remove a cross without a second glance to go through the metal detector at the Airport, but asking a Muslim to remove a head dress creates incredible problems. That does not indicate a relaxed attitude, and is far more devout than any Christian.

Not in 1st world countries. At least, not anymore. It's not uncommon in lesser civilized countries, however. We aren't quite past the barbaric stage in the global world just yet.

Perhaps not, but Western society does not wish harm upon their fellow man. Love thy Neighbour and all that, whereas Surah 9.29 says kill your neighbour if he dares to be non Muslim. How can peace come from such teachings ever? And I am sure you are aware of the term Dhimmi under Shari'ah law.

Nonsense. There are about 1.5 billion Muslims in the world today, and countless billions more have come and gone. They are not a damaged population; their youth does not spend the day wishing they had an infidel to kill. It is the fanatics who abuse the children under their care who do that.

I'll skip to the end, as the rest of the post is pretty much a repeat of the above theme.

But that also is not what I am seeing, Islamic Youths write poems about how they would like to kill Infidels like you and I?? This is again, in my backyard, what Islam is doing here in Australia, have you by any chance heard f the 8 year old girl, Ruqaya? She addressed a 600-strong crowd at the Australian chapter of Hizb ut-Tahrir in Bankstown and said:

"My dear brothers and sisters in Islam, as the world gathers against the believers in Syria ... seeking to hijack our sincere and blessed uprisings, children in Sydney would like to send their message of hope and support to the Muslims of (Syria), especially to the children and mothers," she read from notes. "These uprisings have demonstrated that this umma (global Muslim community) is alive and well, her love is for jihad, she is unshackled herself from the fear which she held, and she yearns to once again live under the banner of (the Islamic state).

"Children as young as myself can be seen on the streets joining the uprisings, risking their lives to bring food, water and medicine to their wounded family members, some of them never returning to their mothers ... Nobody is too young,"

She was #7 of 9 speakers too.

If that was not bad enough, young children were seen carrying inflammatory placards including one that read "Behead all those who insult the Prophet" and another sign at the protest read "Our dead are in paradise, your dead are in hell". Children, not Terrorists, and Islam promotes this use of children? How about the little girl that ran to security guards telling them she had a bomb strapped to her, and she did not want to die?

This is were I would like to see someone like Mirza Masroor Ahmad show up and say "What the heck is all this???? THIS is NOT Islam!!!" But nobody every does, the Imam appointed here only called our women "uncovered meat" and advocated rape against them. This is what happens here, this is what make me nervous, and this is what creates unrest. As I said earlier, imagine me doing that in the Middle East!! If my children were carrying Anti Islam Placards in any Shari'ah led province, they would be killed horribly. Yet Islamic leaders in Australia see this as some sort of basic right here? This is where one expects a representative of the religion of peace such as Mirza Masroor Ahmad to tell Imam Hilali that he is not longer a leader of Islam. By way of silence, they seem to advocate such vile claims. The leaders here in my country do not lead, they create as much unrest as any Islamic fundamentalist.

Then perhaps, instead of relying on belief, you should go out and make an effort to find out what Muslims are actually like.

As I have noted, these people are in my backyard, they are leaders and followers.

The only Muslim people I have met face to face were a group of people my step son was living with, and I assure you, they did nothing to quell my concerns but reinforced them, In fact one of them had been told by my step son that I was an amateur astronomer, so he had a go at me for no good reason about the "fake" Apollo landings. Stupid angry young people. They were anything but nice, and had a real problem with Western society even though they were converts. My Step Daughter was seeing a Muslim guy who said he was studying medicine, and ended up showing his true colours when he told her to convert, and she refused, and had to hide from him for over 6 months until he found someone else to bother. Although I do know a bloke who own a local Gardening Shop nearby who is Muslim and I would not know if he had not told me, but he is one in every single situation I have been in or seen in my country. My experiences have not been pleasant, personally, or in my country as a whole, from personal interaction, to real estate, to the streets where the vile protests are held.

Frankly, it's not been a great introduction, I doubt many people would continue to pursue something that offers that sort of reception.

Because I will tell you right now, that I am frankly a bit shocked at hearing you apply such a negative stereotype so broadly while not showing an ounce of hesitation at accepting face value beliefs over actual investigative conclusions. It isn't worthy of a thinker.

That is exactly why I guess I picked on you a bit. I trust about half a dozen people on this site to be honest with me. You are one of them, If I say something stupid, you will not just tell me, but point me at valid unbiased fact to counter any misconception I might have. And I trust you to give me a valid unbiased source. I don't want to hear how "racist" it is to fear Islam, and I don't want to hear apologetics explaining why it is OK to pray that you will chop of your friends head for not bowing to Allah. I want to know if there is any redeeming qualities Islam holds, where can I find them? And how valid are they? And if Moderate Muslims do exist, where are they and what are they doing? Should we not see the same numbers opposing violence as we see carrying placards with threats to my way of life and my very being upon them? If Islam is a religion of peace, should this not happen by default? As for stereotypes, I feel I have provided many local examples to explain why the stereotype seems very valid.

Mate, I think I am asking what a great many people are thinking, but are too scared to ask.

Edited by psyche101

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A LOT of material clipped due to post creep. Sorry if I missed something you wanted discussed.

I don't care why terrorists do what they do. Terrorism is a self-defeating ideology. What I care about is making sure innocents don't get hurt along the way. That means hurt by either terrorist or by people opposed to terrorism. By continuously associating the innocent with the guilty, all that is accomplished is a continuation of the same fear that empowers the terrorist (aptly named).

The people you picked are a very long way from me, the people I picked as Australian leaders, Muftis' Imam's, selected individuals that represent the religion os Islam, and that is who said women deserve to be raped Hilali was an Imam of the Lakemba Mosque in Sydney and an Australian Sunni Muslim leader at the time he said that. Feiz Mohammed was in Sydney Streets recruiting for Jihad, Ikebal Patel in Parliament calling for Shari'ah, these are everyday occurrences in my face that I fear. Not some line on the Internet written by someone in Bosnia, but my backyard. Surely you can understand that the words of a man in Bosnia offer no comfort to an Islamic leader saying Australian women deserve rape?

Why not? What difference would it make if he were in Australia? Do you think it would stop the radicals from spouting their nonsense? Do radicals in the U.S. stop ranting just because the Pope visits?

The problem isn't so much that you hadn't heard of this. Your previous post (and much of this one) indicated that it didn't even occur to you that such people existed, and even now, you have decided they have some hidden agenda.

You are the one that isn't looking for peace. You are the one that suspects they are being false. Whatever else may happen, whether or not they are sincere, none of that is going to change that this perception is not coming from them; it is coming from you.

And worse, it is happening because the worst elements of their religion decide to use terror tactics to imbed this very fear into you.

I do not understand why the Muslim leaders wrote to the Pope asking for more common grounds? It is well known that the Koran and the Bible have many similarities, and are supposed to be worshiping the same god. What exactly was the point there? Should they not put that effort into ending terrorism in Islam? What significant issues between the Catholic and Muslim religions requires this resolve? Dead people and pregnant women on death row seem more pressing issues?

Because they understand that the problem is not a few specific terrorists. The problem is not isolated groups of radical fundamentalists. The problem is the mindset that creates those fundamentalists. The idea that one and only one belief can be correct. By encouraging interfaith education, these walls are torn down, and people start realizing that the people on the other side of the fence are fundamentally identical to oneself.

You are not us, you are one of them right?

Is that not what the aforementioned Surah 9.29 says exactly? Is that not Islam itself?

No, it isn't. It's the human condition itself. People don't fear other tribes because they are told to. They fear strangers because they are afraid of being hurt or robbed. Religions simply codified that fear for their own benefit. Nowadays, most people are smart enough to realize that it isn't a fear worth promoting. The ones that cause the problems are the ones that promote that fear, either actively (through terrorism) or passively (by accepting fear as a substitute for reason).

That is a fair point, it probably is generous, but not the point I was raising, which is the Catholic Religion did try to contain this crime. They took accountability form the onset, but I admit it was done very badly.

That's my point: they didn't. Not until well after they were back against the wall and were forced to take action. I'm not even going to contemplate how many abuses by the clergy have occurred over the millenia, but even sticking to this one example of child abuse in the United States, limiting it to the past 200+/- years we've dealt with it, accountability from the church is an incredibly recent event. The Catholic Church did not admit to being culpable of enabling child molestation till 2010.

Well Shari'ah controls much of that country, and I see many Muslims calling for it to be global.

And how long has it been since people wailed and gnashed their teeth as a monument of the Ten Commandments was wheeled out of a U.S. courthouse?

How many of those people would contemplate killing their neighbor for mowing the lawn on a Sunday? Not many, I suspect. Muslims aren't all that different. Like most religious people, you pay lip service and get on with your life. Occasionally, it occurs to someone to impose thier morals on someone else, and you have to stand up and fight.

Ideally, you will stand beside a muslim whom you asked to explain to you just what Sharia Law is, prior to fighting it, and hopefully, there will be other muslims willing to stand with you as well. I would understand if they didn't, though. It's not an easy thing to stand up against your own religion, to think that anything of your faith would be fundamentally bad for the world. But it can happen, and it does. There are those who are willing to fight alongside those whom they cannot agree with.

Egyptian-Muslims-and-Christians-protecting-each-other-during-prayers-in-Egypt-2.png

No, I did not know, and still don't and frankly, I have to say I am a little stunned that anyone in the US would be so heartless. Is it old Veteran's carrying war time grudges? If that is the case, one could understand such comments, I could never claim to even be able to imagine the horrors some of those men saw.

You don't have to look very hard to find the comments. There are still people happily posting away. I sincerely doubt many of them were even around during the attack. They don't need to be. No one needs and excuse to be an *******.

But two wrongs do not make a right, Islam heralding 911 as just is beyond comprehension, and illustrates that this is anything but a religion of peace. The mindset is violence.

You are still not getting.

It isn't two wrongs.

It is the exact same wrong. Over and over again. Throughout history.

And it is still around for the very simple reason that people think they are dealing with it, when they are actually simply succumbing to it.

Fair enough, religion is an uncomfortable subject.

It isn't the presence of religion that unnerves me. It is the lack of rationaility that causes a chill to go up my spine. It is an unfortunate truism that we tend to be the least rational when we have the most need of it.

I just cannot see that. Catholics might wear a cross, but do not cover up in Burkas in places like Australia where the heart makes such plainly ridiculous, just to please some imaginary being.

It's also for modesty. Much the same way most women wouldn't like going around in sheer blouses and no bras, many Muslim women would simply feel naked without the burqua. Fashions change, and given a generation or two, I would expect their grandaughters to be shocking them by wearing bright blue denim pants in public.

But religious leaders dictating what women can wear is hardly a unique trait to Islam.

If Islamic people are so easy going with their religion, why is there such controversy over removing a Burka or Hijab in a bank, or to have a licence photo? A Christian will remove a cross without a second glance to go through the metal detector at the Airport, but asking a Muslim to remove a head dress creates incredible problems. That does not indicate a relaxed attitude, and is far more devout than any Christian.

A cross doesn't protect your modesty. I suspect if you were asked to remove your pants, you might demand a pretty good reason. This has little to do with religion. This is a cultural thing.

Perhaps not, but Western society does not wish harm upon their fellow man. Love thy Neighbour and all that, whereas Surah 9.29 says kill your neighbour if he dares to be non Muslim. How can peace come from such teachings ever?

You mean asides from killing the neighbor for working on a Sunday?

Keep you my sabbath: for it is holy unto you: he that shall profane it, shall be put to death: he that shall do my work in it, his soul shall perish out of the midst of his people. Exodus 31:14

Or just generally killing non-believers?

If there be found among you, within any of thy gates which the LORD thy God giveth thee, man or woman, that hath wrought wickedness in the sight of the LORD thy God, in transgressing his covenant; 17:3 And hath gone and served other gods, and worshipped them, either the sun, or moon, or any of the host of heaven, which I have not commanded; 17:4 And it be told thee, and thou hast heard of it, and enquired diligently, and, behold, it be true, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought in Israel; 17:5 Then shalt thou bring forth that man or that woman, which have committed that wicked thing, unto thy gates, even that man or that woman, and shalt stone them with stones, till they die. Deuteronomy 17

And I am sure you are aware of the term Dhimmi under Shari'ah law.

Yes. It basically means "expat".

Frankly, it's not been a great introduction, I doubt many people would continue to pursue something that offers that sort of reception.

Think about what you are saying, man. You acknowledge that your personal experiences are bad, but instead of attempting to find a null set or determining the other end of the spectrum, you decide to stick with your limited, admittedly subjective, data set.

If anyone approached you with a rational proposal based on that premise, you would laugh them out of the room.

I want to know if there is any redeeming qualities Islam holds, where can I find them? And how valid are they? And if Moderate Muslims do exist, where are they and what are they doing? Should we not see the same numbers opposing violence as we see carrying placards with threats to my way of life and my very being upon them? If Islam is a religion of peace, should this not happen by default? As for stereotypes, I feel I have provided many local examples to explain why the stereotype seems very valid.

I think you can see the flaws in your argument, and that you know how to go about solving them. I think the problem is that it might hurt a bit, and you are aware of that.

It is an unfortunate fact that a rationalist must train themselves to do something that runs counter to pretty much every instinct in our primitive monkey brain. A rationalist must cultivate the will, maybe even the masochistic desire, to run straight into the unknown, the strange, the controversial. It's all well and good to play in the safe fields of mainstream thought, but that is borrowed experience, not personal experience. When one leaves the gates and goes out into the world, where others have their won rational and reasoned world views, that is where one's abilities as a thinker endure some of their hardest tests, and where true personal experience is born.

Unfortunately, experience is a harsh teacher; first it gives you the test, then it lets you study the lesson.

I've given you a few leads, and a couple of links. If I give you anymore, however, then you will simply be borrowing on my experience. Since the data you are currently banking on is composed almost entirely of subjective experience, the only way to balance it is with more subjective experience. That means it has to be you who goes out to find it.

But I do think you might be surprised at how welcome you will be at the places where you must go to ask questions.

Mate, I think I am asking what a great many people are thinking, but are too scared to ask.

You absolutely are. They aren't too dissimilar from my thoughts on other subjects. But where we differ from the common crowd is in our responsibilities to rationalism. Such thoughts do need to be expressed, absolutely, but expressed as objective data, and evaluated for their overall signifigance in a given conclusion. We are as succeptible to bias as anyone else, but we train ourselves to limit the influence of the primitive on the intellectual.

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Added for adorableness:

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