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Alan McDougall

Infinite punishment to hell for finite sins?

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Is it just to be punished infinitely and eternally by God to hell, for finite transgressions?

Why should an infinite God punish a relatively tiny finite human for a finite transgression/sin, by sending the sinner into eternal infinite damnation, in what is known as the "Second Death" of hell?

The second death does not necessarily mean cessation or extinguish of the soul, because many believe the soul is eternal and will continue to exist after death, somewhere either in a hellish plane of suffering, or a glorious state of everlasting heavenly bliss.

Does God operate in that things are either, black and white, darkness or light, heaven or hell or are there grey areas in between?

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What part of the bible says that?

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What part of the bible says that?

Revelation.

Either way, the more modern views of hell are very much informed by things like Dante's Inferno.

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Here is a list of hell references in the Bible. There actually are quite a few. Here is a couple of samples.

http://www.biblestudytools.com/topical-verses/hell-bible-verses/

Matthew 13:42

They will throw them into the fiery furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:41

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.

Matthew 25:46

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

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Revelation.

Either way, the more modern views of hell are very much informed by things like Dante's Inferno.

Dante provided an escape hatch from Hell. He and the ghost of Virgil got out.

Harte

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Hi Alan,

I'd respond to your question by noting that my understanding of "hell" as I've read the Bible is exactly what you suggest with the cessation of the existence of the soul. Much like many atheists have no belief in an afterlife and believe that upon death they simply cease to exist, such I believe is the fate of the non-believer. Technically it is a "punishment" and this punishment lasts an eternity, but I do not believe it is a punishment unequal to the crime.

If you have a problem with a God who sends people to a place of fire and brimstone forever to be tortured eternally, then I have to agree, I also have a problem with a God who would do this. But I'm the wrong person to be asked to defend that view, since that's not what I believe. You'll need to take this argument up with someone like them. Which is what this thread is about, I suppose. I'm just sharing my view, and I'd like to add that the idea of a torture-hell is increasingly a minority in the modern world. The Roman Catholic church has officially taken out a literal hell from their doctrine, as have many protestant groups. A relative minority are what is left to believe in such a hell. They still represent a lot of professing Christians, and without statistics I can only offer my experience based on my own life, as well as meeting people from all over the world on websites such as this and other forums where people share views and ideas on various topics. And that experience is that the number of literal-hellfire believers are relatively low and do not represent Christian majority view (in saying that, my view of this fate of unbelievers may not be the majority view either, there are other alternatives out there). Anyway, I hope you find the answers you're looking for with this thread :tu:

~ Regards, PA

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According to how I understand the the word of God(the Bible), once you have heard the gospel of Christ you choose whether to believe or deny, to be for him or against him. We should not continue to deny Jesus Christ.

John 3:25-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Revelation 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

And we know by reading the word that whosoever was not found written in the Lambs book of life was cast into the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone to be tormented day and night forever. (Rev. 20:12-15)

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I don't believe in hell..

but whoever thought of such a horrible idea.

wasn't very nice.. or loving.. or magical

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The Biblical deity should be punishing its evil self first, it is worse than any human ever!

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According to how I understand the the word of God(the Bible), once you have heard the gospel of Christ you choose whether to believe or deny, to be for him or against him. We should not continue to deny Jesus Christ.

John 3:25-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Revelation 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

And we know by reading the word that whosoever was not found written in the Lambs book of life was cast into the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone to be tormented day and night forever. (Rev. 20:12-15)

I think I see the escape hatch! :) What I see in threads like this is a desire to tell the Creator - without which nothing ever would have existed in the first place - that he is wrong and that you (his creation) know better. People often say they don't believe in scripture because it has been corrupted by time, yet when it comes to a desire to indict God they use scripture to do it! Why not just admit we don't really KNOW and then decide if it really makes more sense that all of the beauty and complexity of the universe and it's immutable laws can be put down to some cosmic chance. In the face of an infinite and immeasurable vastness about us, why is it so difficult to simply let go and allow that there is an entity that is, was and always will be and that his price for us being in his graces is to believe in him? Now really, what IS so difficult about those terms? Just to believe. That's all the gospel is. Mankind complicates it unbelievably but it's essence is this: The Creator took on the form of man, he died on a cross in substitution for the death we deserved, he stayed in the grave for 3 days and then rose physically back to life (resurrected) and is alive forevermore. But according to his words in the scripture only a comparative few will know life after death because they REFUSE to do this. They simply will not be told, they will not listen. it's tragic.
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According to how I understand the the word of God(the Bible), once you have heard the gospel of Christ you choose whether to believe or deny, to be for him or against him. We should not continue to deny Jesus Christ.

John 3:25-36 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

Revelation 3:15-16 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

And we know by reading the word that whosoever was not found written in the Lambs book of life was cast into the lake of fire which burns with fire and brimstone to be tormented day and night forever. (Rev. 20:12-15)

The book of Revelation heavily quotes the book of Enoch, a book that was not accepted into either Jewish or Christian canons. I strongly suggest exercising caution when teaching from Revelation.

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The Biblical deity should be punishing its evil self first, it is worse than any human ever!

I agree.

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The book of Revelation heavily quotes the book of Enoch, a book that was not accepted into either Jewish or Christian canons. I strongly suggest exercising caution when teaching from Revelation.

Caution , exactly why?

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Posted (edited)

Caution , exactly why?

Because you could influence a movement based on false information that could actually turn people off to the gospel and even stir up hostility between religious and secular people.

One only needs to consider the false prophets and how much money has been donated to their false prophecies. The Roman Church in the 12th through 16th centuries profited greatly from the financial contributions the commoners paid to keep themselves and relatives out of Pergatory (a concoction formed when Latin philosophy of the Stoics was combined with Jewish theology) and even to keep people out of hell (as preached by Johan Tetzel and condoned by the Roman Church in the 16th century).

The Roman Church turned around and used the money to pay off the kings and nobles in effort to keep her prestigious benefits and guarantees to untaxable property. The poor, meanwhile, scrounged up everything to save people they loved from a place that didn't exist and even volunteered to fight the Muslims in effort to do so.

In the end, these lies turned millions of people off to religion altogether and made them especially suspicious of Christianity during the Enlightenment and in the 18th century.

The author of Revelation borrowed heavily from the theology presented in the book of Enoch, especially the use of hell as punishment for eternity to all nonbelievers and an earthly rule which the Jews rule all the other nations and do whatever they please to them (as seen in Revelation 20's thousand year reign of Christ and the martyrs).

Edited by Bluefinger
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Because you could influence a movement based on false information that could actually turn people off to the gospel and even stir up hostility between religious and secular people.

One only needs to consider the false prophets and how much money has been donated to their false prophecies. The Roman Church in the 12th through 16th centuries profited greatly from the financial contributions the commoners paid to keep themselves and relatives out of Pergatory (a concoction formed when Latin philosophy of the Stoics was combined with Jewish theology) and even to keep people out of hell (as preached by Johan Tetzel and condoned by the Roman Church in the 16th century).

The Roman Church turned around and used the money to pay off the kings and nobles in effort to keep her prestigious benefits and guarantees to untaxable property. The poor, meanwhile, scrounged up everything to save people they loved from a place that didn't exist and even volunteered to fight the Muslims in effort to do so.

In the end, these lies turned millions of people off to religion altogether and made them especially suspicious of Christianity during the Enlightenment and in the 18th century.

The author of Revelation borrowed heavily from the theology presented in the book of Enoch, especially the use of hell as punishment for eternity to all nonbelievers and an earthly rule which the Jews rule all the other nations and do whatever they please to them (as seen in Revelation 20's thousand year reign of Christ and the martyrs).

You are correct and very wise, beyond your years if your avatar is a recent photo of you? I agree completely with your statements.

Just to add something, the punishments in the afterlife vary in severity.

http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=11&article=212

or if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world THROUGHarrow-10x10.png the knowledge of the Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein and overcome, the last STATEarrow-10x10.png is become worse with them than the first (2 Peter 2:20-21, emp. added).

If Peter’s statement teaches anything, it teaches degrees of punishment.

But perhaps the most convincing argument for the concept of degrees of punishment derives from Jesus’ parable of the wicked servant, as recorded in Luke 12:42-48.

And the Lord said, “Who, then, is the faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall set over his household, to give them their portion of food in due season? Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will set him over all that he hath. But if that servant shall say in his heart, ‘My lord delayeth his coming,’ and shall begin to beat the menservants and the maidservants, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; the lord of that servant shall come in a day when he expecteth not, and in an hour when he knoweth not, and shall cut him asunder, and appoint his portion with the unfaithful. And that servant, who knew his lord’s will, and made not READYarrow-10x10.png, nor did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes; but he that knew not, and did things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. And to whomsoever much is given, of him shall much be required: and to whom they commit much, of him will they ask the more” (emp. added).

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During the canonization of the scripture, many people opposed to the inclusion of Book of Revelation. First, it could be used for abusive purpose. Second, it practically had no use by the time when Christianity became legal.

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During the canonization of the scripture, many people opposed to the inclusion of Book of Revelation. First, it could be used for abusive purpose. Second, it practically had no use by the time when Christianity became legal.

True my friend. St. Augustine turned the tide, he thought the no one would take the book in a literal fashion, well we know how right he was don't we?

peace

mark

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They say god forgives so if u get thrown in hell you had to do something really bad .

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During the canonization of the scripture, many people opposed to the inclusion of Book of Revelation. First, it could be used for abusive purpose. Second, it practically had no use by the time when Christianity became legal.

Correct, but much of the Book of Revelation is beautiful and poetic, especiaaly chapter 1, which describes Christ Jesus as the mighty Savior of humanity in glorious detail. No longer the humble carpenter, no the God-Man with flashing eyes etc etc.

Greetings and Doxology

4 John,

To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits[a] before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.

To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood, 6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father—to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

7
“Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
[
]

and “every eye will see him,

even those who pierced him”;

and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”
[
]

So shall it be! Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

John’s Vision of Christ

9 I, John, your brother and companion in the suffering and kingdom and patient endurance that are ours in Jesus, was on the island of Patmos because of the word of God and the testimony of Jesus. 10 On the Lord’s Day I was in the Spirit, and I heard behind me a loud voice like a trumpet,11 which said: “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphiaand Laodicea.”

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They say god forgives so if u get thrown in hell you had to do something really bad .

Like non belief.

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Like non belief.

Not non-belief, but refusing to believe?

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As part of the background of the concept of hell, or the conceptualized place of hell: This idea evolved in the intertestamental period. Ancient Hebrew religion (which evolved into Judaism) had no concrete sense of the afterlife. All persons resided in the shady, shadowy netherworld of Sheol after death. In rubbing proverbial elbows with Hellenistic religion and ancient Persian ideas, the notion of a place of eternal damnation/punishment developed. The "apocalyptic" (meaning 'revealed,' not 'end-of-world-ish') worldview developed in which human good was rewarded and wrongdoing/evil was punished. Part of the impetus of this was the Jewish experience that the evil prospered and the good suffered (see the books of Job and Daniel). Concepts of eternal punishment and damnation developed as an explanation or corrective to this inequity of iniquity.

This is just part of the puzzle with which I am familiar; it's not the whole story.

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Correct, but much of the Book of Revelation is beautiful and poetic, especiaaly chapter 1, which describes Christ Jesus as the mighty Savior of humanity in glorious detail. No longer the humble carpenter, no the God-Man with flashing eyes etc etc.

Then you must be a kind of person who finds nuclear detonation on a major population center incredibly beautiful.

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Posted (edited)

As part of the background of the concept of hell, or the conceptualized place of hell: This idea evolved in the intertestamental period. Ancient Hebrew religion (which evolved into Judaism) had no concrete sense of the afterlife. All persons resided in the shady, shadowy netherworld of Sheol after death. In rubbing proverbial elbows with Hellenistic religion and ancient Persian ideas, the notion of a place of eternal damnation/punishment developed. The "apocalyptic" (meaning 'revealed,' not 'end-of-world-ish') worldview developed in which human good was rewarded and wrongdoing/evil was punished. Part of the impetus of this was the Jewish experience that the evil prospered and the good suffered (see the books of Job and Daniel). Concepts of eternal punishment and damnation developed as an explanation or corrective to this inequity of iniquity.

This is just part of the puzzle with which I am familiar; it's not the whole story.

Well written and true, but it does not negate the possibility that hell exists and we account for our actions both good and bad, to a higher authority after we die, and God is a good option for the ultimate judge. I have had a hellish experience during a coma. Whatever we believe, the "the truth will be the truth"

Edited by Alan McDougall
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Then you must be a kind of person who finds nuclear detonation on a major population center incredibly beautiful.

Then you must be a kind of person who finds nuclear detonation on a major population center incredibly beautiful.

Don,t make stupid assumptions about someone of whom you know absolutely nothing about. I have vivid images of the horrific atomic bomb destruction of Hiroshima and Nagasaki imprinted on my mind. They were nuclear fission bombs, Little boy" a uranium bomb and "Fat Man" a plutonium bomb.

It was hideous not incredibly beautiful @#$%*&@#!

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