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Oklahoma earthquakes linked to fracking

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JONES, Ohio, July 3 (UPI) --The saline wastewater -- a byproduct of the oil and gas industry -- that's injected deep into the ground under intense pressure and high rates of speed, is responsible for the surge of earthquakes in Oklahoma, according to a new study published this week in Science Magazine.

In recent years, Oklahoma has featured more earthquakes than anywhere else in the United States -- even more than California. So far in 2014, the Sooner State has served as host to some 240 small earthquakes, each with a magnitude of at least three.

Since 2008, more than 2,500 earthquakes have shook the grounds surrounding Jones, Okla., a small town smack dab in the middle of the state.

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Good! I hope they ban fracking world wide!

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Good! I hope they ban fracking world wide!

Me too. It's fracking dangerous.

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Good! I hope they ban fracking world wide!

And what is your solution for gas demand? Don't say 'solar/wind', cause world leaders in renewables - Germany, Denmark - are still very far away from fully solar/wind.

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And what is your solution for gas demand? Don't say 'solar/wind', cause world leaders in renewables - Germany, Denmark - are still very far away from fully solar/wind.

Maybe, and bear with me here, but maybe there are things that are more important that gas demand?

I'll let that digest with you for a while.

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Maybe, and bear with me here, but maybe there are things that are more important that gas demand?

I'll let that digest with you for a while.

When you will have rationed (say, few hours per day) and expensive electricity, then you will sing different song. Digest that.

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Carefully managed conventional gas can be used to meet the demand until renewable can fill the gap.

What has happened with Fracking is a classic example of how not to manage your resources. Overexploitation of a non-renewable resource to the extent where you can't even cover your costs.

Br Cornelius

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Carefully managed conventional gas can be used to meet the demand until renewable can fill the gap.[...]

What is "carefully managed", and at what cost? In your own words (with numbers, preferably), please.

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What is "carefully managed", and at what cost? In your own words (with numbers, preferably), please.

Are you a shareholder for Shell? Fracking is cheap way to do it - not the only way. Besides, on a long enough timeline, with or without earthquakes, electricity will become almost a luxury as the price is incrementally increased regularly. Blowing the tops off mountains is a hefty price to pay to keep iPhones charged. Sure, it works for now but in 100 years there will be regrets. This type short term thinking is indicative of an insane society.

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Are you a shareholder for Shell? [...]

Nope, as far as I know (unless bank, responsible for my pension, invests in).

[...] Fracking is cheap way to do it - not the only way. Besides, on a long enough timeline, with or without earthquakes, electricity will become almost a luxury as the price is incrementally increased regularly. Blowing the tops off mountains is a hefty price to pay to keep iPhones charged. Sure, it works for now but in 100 years there will be regrets. This type short term thinking is indicative of an insane society.

Again, many blah blah blahs, and nothing to substantiate. Propose something that would fully replace gas in, say, a decade...

Nada, zero, huh?

So, don't sit on your palms, do something, you are full of ideas, you know how to replace gas, aren't you? Or you just blahblahing while sitting on the comfy couch and stuffing chips behind your cheeks?

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Posted (edited)

And what is your solution for gas demand? Don't say 'solar/wind', cause world leaders in renewables - Germany, Denmark - are still very far away from fully solar/wind.

I wonder where we'd be today if certain interests had been working on this problem all along instead of trying to squeeze out every last dollar they could just because it was more cost effective for them? Hell I did solar power as a 5th grade science project back in the mid 70s. I have a friend whose mother has solar panels on her house, which is a huge house, and she brings in enough power to run everything and sell the surplus to the power company. Her solar panels aren't even that large. Don't tell us it can't be done, because that is simply ludicrous man.

Big oil only made $93 billion in profits last year, so excuse me if I don't lose sleep over them having to invest in a cleaner future.

I went to the Ross Perot Science Museum in Dallas last year. They had large sections of one floor devoted to fracking and the oil industry in general. There was actually a ride that 20 people or so would climb inside and it would simulate a ride down into a fracking well. They went out of their way to talk about how there were no possible consequences for what they were doing, which made me laugh. No one in their right mind could look at fracking and think it was a good idea, but then again I'd say no one in their right mind would defend spewing crap into the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the ground where we grow our food, but people certainly do that.

Humans man… Is it possible to secede from the species?

Edited by MysticStrummer
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Posted (edited)

The future is already here and it aint Fracking

[media=]

[/media]

the main monoplies are fighting hard to keep independent producers off the grid but it is becoming untenable for Governments to support monopolies over citizens and they will force the National grids to buy electricity from micro-generators. Gas turbine generators will become backup for the alternatives and will deminish as total share over time.

It is frankly stupid to destroy our environment for such a short term gain as Fracking offers.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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I wonder where we'd be today if certain interests had been working on this problem all along instead of trying to squeeze out every last dollar they could just because it was more cost effective for them?

I wonder where your "interests" would get the money to play with a toy like solar energy instead of providing me with the energy I need to drive my car to work and earn a living in an air-conditioned classroom, not to mention the myriad other things I need energy for, not the least of which is to have the ability to point out the flaws in your post.

Hell I did solar power as a 5th grade science project back in the mid 70s. I have a friend whose mother has solar panels on her house, which is a huge house, and she brings in enough power to run everything and sell the surplus to the power company. Her solar panels aren't even that large. Don't tell us it can't be done, because that is simply ludicrous man.

I'm calling bull**** on that.

A typical solar panel can reliably produce around 200 watts. A typical home uses almost 1000 KW a month. That's a million watts a month, or about 33,333 watts per day, That means your friend's mother must have over 165 panels. At around 175 to 225 bucks per panel.

And that assumes 30 days of clear skies.

Big oil only made $93 billion in profits last year, so excuse me if I don't lose sleep over them having to invest in a cleaner future.

Typical profit margins for oil companies in 2013 were under 10%. Here's a link to show you that Starbuck's (among thousands of other companies) have outperformed that for years.

Why doesn't Starbucks use their obscene profits to fund solar research?

I went to the Ross Perot Science Museum in Dallas last year. They had large sections of one floor devoted to fracking and the oil industry in general. There was actually a ride that 20 people or so would climb inside and it would simulate a ride down into a fracking well. They went out of their way to talk about how there were no possible consequences for what they were doing, which made me laugh. No one in their right mind could look at fracking and think it was a good idea, but then again I'd say no one in their right mind would defend spewing crap into the air we breathe, the water we drink, and the ground where we grow our food, but people certainly do that.

Yet your philosophy would deny us the ability to drastically reduce the crap we spew into the air by using gas to make electricity rather than oil or coal.

Humans man… Is it possible to secede from the species?

I'll send you the form.

Harte

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Are you a shareholder for Shell? Fracking is cheap way to do it - not the only way. Besides, on a long enough timeline, with or without earthquakes, electricity will become almost a luxury as the price is incrementally increased regularly. Blowing the tops off mountains is a hefty price to pay to keep iPhones charged. Sure, it works for now but in 100 years there will be regrets. This type short term thinking is indicative of an insane society.

...and not the only signs today of an insane society... :cry:

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Posted (edited)

Harte, typical installed solar capacity is about 4KW and that costs about €5,000.00 at current prices. Average production maybe just 200watts but peak production and in good locations it will produce 4kw. a typical house uses about 3kw/h per day so a typical house can be self sufficient and even export to the grid on a regular basis for a small initial up front investment.

Gas can be saved when peak production is happening and that will mean that conventional reserves of gas will be extended many times as more solar is installed. The difference which is massively significant is that gas will decline and cost will go up - where as there is almost no limit to the amount of solar capacity that can be installed and the supply will naturally increase over time. It is postulated that the life expectancy of a solar PV panel is 30yrs (longer than a fracked well) but a solar panel has never worn out so the potential return on initial capitol and energy investment is almost limitless.

There are logistical problems in transferring to solar/wind (not least of which is monopoly interests) but the basic maths means that Solar will come to dominate the energy sector just as the video I linked to (by experts) is a reflection of the coming reality.

Coupled to this is the fact that it would be relatively easy and painless for most Americans to save at least a third of their electricity usage with minimal lifestyle changes and increased overall comfort.

Also your argument about Fracking allowing a cut in CO2 emissions is rubbish as it has been shown that Fracked wells produce many hundreds of time the fugitive emissions of a conventional gas well and this makes then no better and even sometimes worse than coal. Unfortunately on the balance of evidence we would do less environmental damage simply continuing to burn coal than to transfer to fracked gas for our electricity.

The reality is that solar PV has followed a similar cost profile over time as computing power, with little sign of that changing. This means that in the medium term it has the potential for market penetration at least as significant as the rise of PC's from niche to ubiquitous. This truly is a world changing technology.

Who are the people lobbying hardest to restrict grid access - the monopoly energy interests. Me thinks you've been suckered.

Your position is one of atavistic fear mongering.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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I make a prediction that attempts to get Fracxking off the ground in Ireland will fail within the next year. This is based on

1) decisive political oposition

2) lack of investor confidence

3) totally unsuitable geology

4) the effectiveness of on the ground opposition.

i similarly predict that this will be the trajectory of Fracking across the whole of Europe, as it has already been in almost all areas it has been proposed outside of the USA.

Let me say this in clear terms - it will be the economic argument which will sink it above all. it wont be long before those economics will come home to roost in the Americas and I predict it will be the next bubble to burst across the pond.

Br Cornelius

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Just because renwable energy hasn't been a priority in the US, doesn't mean that it is not the case in other countries.

I live in Denmark and we get a large part of our energy from renewable sources and a lot of money and research has been done here. In 2020 half of our electricity production will come from windpower alone.

So it is indeed possible to increase the level of renewable energy, if the political will is there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wind_power_in_Denmark

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Harte, typical installed solar capacity is about 4KW and that costs about €5,000.00 at current prices. Average production maybe just 200watts but peak production and in good locations it will produce 4kw. a typical house uses about 3kw/h per day so a typical house can be self sufficient and even export to the grid on a regular basis for a small initial up front investment.

that's 16 250W panels, at peak output. That would be noonish.

Where is it sunny and noon all day every day?

I'd say it's more likely that the person mentioned merely sells their solar energy to the utility, thus getting a smaller bill.

Otherwise, it's a room full of batteries, along with that (and the panel) maintenance.

Harte

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Also your argument about Fracking allowing a cut in CO2 emissions is rubbish as it has been shown that Fracked wells produce many hundreds of time the fugitive emissions of a conventional gas well and this makes then no better and even sometimes worse than coal. Unfortunately on the balance of evidence we would do less environmental damage simply continuing to burn coal than to transfer to fracked gas for our electricity.

Br Cornelius

(Reuters) - U.S. environment regulators said Wednesday they will give natural gas and oil drillers more than two years of extra time to invest in equipment that slashes unhealthy air emissions from fracking wells, citing a lack of clean technology.

Drillers that use fracturing, or fracking, to extract natural gas and oil will not be required to use the equipment until January 2015, the Environmental Protection Agency said as it finalized long-delayed rules on the smog-forming emissions.

The new rule comes as the Obama administration tries to balance its support for a booming industry that could help the United States become a major exporter of natural gas, while still addressing concerns about its safety.

In a draft rule in July the EPA had proposed drillers would have to invest in equipment to capture the waste gasses soon after the standard was finalized.

Now, drillers will have until 2015 to invest in equipment that capture the emissions, a process known as 'green completion'. Until then they can burn off, or flare, the gas.

link

Your argument is old.

Harte

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The reality is that solar PV has followed a similar cost profile over time as computing power, with little sign of that changing. This means that in the medium term it has the potential for market penetration at least as significant as the rise of PC's from niche to ubiquitous. This truly is a world changing technology.

Br Cornelius

Solar holds potential, certainly.

But, comparing its cost profile to computing is a poor analogy because the demand for computing didn't exist at anything even slightly near the demand for energy at the same point on the timeline.

The demand sets the agenda; the money, in other words.

The demand will either bring about decent solar, or it will bring about more efficient frackling, or both.

If both, you must see that fracking will come first. We cannot simply stop producing and say "Okay, everybody, time to start buying solar panels."

Harte

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Posted (edited)

Solar holds potential, certainly.

But, comparing its cost profile to computing is a poor analogy because the demand for computing didn't exist at anything even slightly near the demand for energy at the same point on the timeline.

The demand sets the agenda; the money, in other words.

The demand will either bring about decent solar, or it will bring about more efficient frackling, or both.

If both, you must see that fracking will come first. We cannot simply stop producing and say "Okay, everybody, time to start buying solar panels."

Harte

Fracking guarantees stable high gas bills into the long term. Solar PV on a household level means a relatively reducing energy bill year on year. this is what will drive Solar to leap ahead of Fracking - simple economics.

It is assumed that all future PV installations will be grid tied and so people will have the flexability to buy and sell without worries of managing their load. Weather forcasts are of sufficient quality to allow management of the grid accommodate these micro-generators.

I find it telling that all the talk is now of exporting Americas natural gas which put the lie to this been all about energy security for America.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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I wonder where we'd be today if certain interests had been working on this problem all along instead of trying to squeeze out every last dollar they could just because it was more cost effective for them? Hell I did solar power as a 5th grade science project back in the mid 70s. I have a friend whose mother has solar panels on her house, which is a huge house, and she brings in enough power to run everything and sell the surplus to the power company. Her solar panels aren't even that large. Don't tell us it can't be done, because that is simply ludicrous man.

[...]

Someone tells me that you are ignorant about things needed to be done in order to keep reliable energy supply. Simply connecting solar/wind to the grid is not that simple, you need huge investments in infrastructure just to make sure you have electricity 24/7. Changes take time, it can't be done in one day, nor in one year, it takes decades.

But hey, you can install autonomous solar system, disconnect from the grid, and enjoy "cheap" electricity. But don't complain when you'll have to spend few/several evenings per year in complete darkness.

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There's something odd about this, was is this reported now and not in the 40's?

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There's something odd about this, was is this reported now and not in the 40's?

You mean they fracked much in the 40s?

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Posted (edited)

And what is your solution for gas demand? Don't say 'solar/wind', cause world leaders in renewables - Germany, Denmark - are still very far away from fully solar/wind.

We could plant millions of more trees, and then chop them down and burn them in order to create electric. And also solar power if used on every roof would create more then enough electric. Plus some one created a solar road cell that interlinks with thousands of others to make roads solar panels. If all new roads had to be those then in 50-100 years we will have surplus electric.

Edited by bulveye

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