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keithisco

Ashers Baking Company:...

19 posts in this topic

Is this PC 'ness gone mad? I don't have to accept commissions or contracts that I do not want to fulfil and I do not have to give a reason for refusing such work. I turn down a lot of work for the ME (including Israel) because I do not feel that on moral grounds I should support either side. OK, granted, this is not the same thing, but in business you most certainly do have the right to refuse a commission (contract) once the full details are revealed to you, and you are responsible for returning any payments already made. It is not considered to be contractually binding if the full details of the requirement have not been previously revealed.

A Christian-run bakery that refused a customer's request to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage could face a discrimination case in court.

Ashers Baking Company declined an order from a gay rights activist, asking for cake featuring the Sesame Street puppets, Bert and Ernie.

The customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called "Queerspace".

The County Antrim firm could face legal action from the Equality Commission.

Source (BBC): http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-northern-ireland-28206581

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Posted (edited)

Is this PC 'ness gone mad? I don't have to accept commissions or contracts that I do not want to fulfil and I do not have to give a reason for refusing such work.

Except the CEO of Ashers Bakery did give a reason for refusing the contract - that reason being because it was "against their [religious] beliefs".

So, having essentially convicted themselves of refusing the work because of discrimination, I don't see they have a legal leg to stand on.

Edited by Leonardo
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Kind of silly I think. It's just a cake and they are bakers. They could have put their personal views aside and fulfilled the order, what harm would it have done. Now they've landed themselves in all kinds of trouble and over a cake of all things.

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The politically correct brigade will be up in arms. N.Ireland being a deeply religious country which is reflected by the fact they are the only part of the UK not to pass laws for the introduce same-sex marriage. regardless of what the Law says. I feel if this bakery was on the mainland they'd lose the case, but being in Ireland they probably win their case. being backed by popular opinion. The Bakery is under no obligation to complete or accept any order and can refuse. they refunded the money. case closed, - its only the gay's wanting to try and make a point. which does their cause no good. not when popular opinion is not with them.

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Unfortunately its what you get from legislation of the Equality Act 2010; not the first case to go to court because of deemed discrimination arising from a person choosing to not provide services because of their beliefs.

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Compensation ambush.....works with B&B's too!

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Posted (edited)

Just a final thought.....Would a Muslim-run bakery be threatened with Court action for refusing to make up a batch of pork pies (or Hot Cross Buns for that matter?) No....I don't think so either.

Edited by ealdwita
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i didn't realise the bible HAD a cookery section...?!

.

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...whod've thought a fairy cake could cause so much trouble....

:-D

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Posted (edited)

The Bakery is under no obligation to complete or accept any order and can refuse.

The bakery in question had already accepted the order via one of it's branches - so that rules out the "it does not have to accept any order" argument. Upon receipt of the accepted order, the bakery can refuse to fulfill it if doing so would contravene any law, or has not the capacity to fulfill the order - otherwise it is contractually obligated to complete the order.

The fulfillment of the order would not have contravened any law, but was refused on the grounds of an unlawful "religious objection" argument.

This is not a "PC argument", it is a legal argument. The bakery is at fault due to the CEO opening his big mouth and stating his reason for refusing the order. He was stupid, and sometimes stupidity is punished.

Edited by Leonardo

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The fulfillment of the order would not have contravened any law, but was refused on the grounds of an unlawful "religious objection" argument.

This is not a "PC argument", it is a legal argument. The bakery is at fault due to the CEO opening his big mouth and stating his reason for refusing the order. He was stupid, and sometimes stupidity is punished.

I respectfully refer you to post #7...

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Honestly, just let them eat cake and be done with it you silly Bakery.

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If you want to open a bakery designed for members of a specific fate then go for it.However if your selling to the general public then you shouldn't be discriminating on the basis of a customers sexual preference.

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Posted (edited)

If you want to open a bakery designed for members of a specific fate then go for it.However if your selling to the general public then you shouldn't be discriminating on the basis of a customers sexual preference.

If they don't want to make a cake they don't have to its a simple as that. they refunded the money. that really is the end of the issue of whether to make the cake. The second issue has nothing to do with the cake. Its the debate if they have discriminated, and if they have broken a law on this occasion then the law is an ass. and lets see what happens in the coming days and weeks, when it comes to the rights and wrongs the public will decide with their feet and the business will sink or swim on that.

I've quoted you, but im also replying to Leonardo, in the same reply.

Edited by stevewinn

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Posted (edited)

I respectfully refer you to post #7...

Is it a tenet of Christianity that a christian shall not bake a cake for a homosexual? Or help a homosexual?

No, it only forbids the practice of homosexuality by the Christian. The law only allows for exemptions when the action being undertaken could be considered to contravene a tenet of the religion. Hence a Muslim (or Jewish) owner of a bakery would not be within his/her rights to refuse to bake pork pies, because baking pork pies does not contravene any Muslim tenet - eating them would.

stevewinn,

If they don't want to make a cake they don't have to its a simple as that.

No, it's not "as simple as that" when the reason given for the refusal is discriminatory. If the CEO had kept his mouth shut, and simply refused the order without explanation, then the party ordering the cake would have no justification for suing.

Edited by Leonardo
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Is it a tenet of Christianity that a christian shall not bake a cake for a homosexual? Or help a homosexual?

No, it only forbids the practice of homosexuality by the Christian. The law only allows for exemptions when the action being undertaken could be considered to contravene a tenet of the religion. Hence a Muslim (or Jewish) owner of a bakery would not be within his/her rights to refuse to bake pork pies, because baking pork pies does not contravene any Muslim tenet - eating them would.

stevewinn,

No, it's not "as simple as that" when the reason given for the refusal is discriminatory. If the CEO had kept his mouth shut, and simply refused the order without explanation, then the party ordering the cake would have no justification for suing.

I just think the whole thing is stupid, lets use the discrimination laws for when they are actually needed. not over something like this which makes a mockery of the law in peoples eyes. these minority groups do themselves no good whatsoever, they campaign for years for such laws which empower them, the moment they are backed by such legislation they apply it to such pointless issues as this 'cake' story, they always go for the full on nuclear option.

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I just think the whole thing is stupid, lets use the discrimination laws for when they are actually needed. not over something like this which makes a mockery of the law in peoples eyes. these minority groups do themselves no good whatsoever, they campaign for years for such laws which empower them, the moment they are backed by such legislation they apply it to such pointless issues as this 'cake' story, they always go for the full on nuclear option.

.

a post like that needed saying twice.

a good point well made Steve.

.

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I just think the whole thing is stupid, lets use the discrimination laws for when they are actually needed. not over something like this which makes a mockery of the law in peoples eyes. these minority groups do themselves no good whatsoever, they campaign for years for such laws which empower them, the moment they are backed by such legislation they apply it to such pointless issues as this 'cake' story, they always go for the full on nuclear option.

How is it making a mockery of laws protecting against discrimination to prosecute someone who discriminates unlawfully?

And in whose eyes is this 'mockery' being made? Yours? So what, neither you nor I have any say in what is law in NI. Apparently, the law there states you cannot discriminate as the bakery did so the law should be applied.

And how is suing the "nuclear option"? Are you suggesting people should simply put up with being discriminated against, to protect your feelings on the matter?

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How is it making a mockery of laws protecting against discrimination to prosecute someone who discriminates unlawfully?

And in whose eyes is this 'mockery' being made? Yours? So what, neither you nor I have any say in what is law in NI. Apparently, the law there states you cannot discriminate as the bakery did so the law should be applied.

And how is suing the "nuclear option"? Are you suggesting people should simply put up with being discriminated against, to protect your feelings on the matter?

Seriously, over a cake. you've proved my point about the nuclear option. you've got your knickers in a twist over a cake, c'mon using the full weight of the law, brought to bear over a cake. the way your carrying on you'd think something serious as happened. its a damn cake. The person involved should do what heterosexual's do everyday of the week, take it on the chin and get on with it. being a minority doesn't make them a special case, that's their trouble they get treated like one so act like one, you win the war by choosing your battles wisely.

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