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DeWitz

Who Were the 'Sea People?'

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Reviewing some leftover Old Testament studies notes, I was reminded of the 'Sea People' who invaded Egypt around 1177. However, my notes don't remind me of who they were and whence they came. Any UMers know about this culture that had a brief, but apparently deep, effect on Egypt and possibly the ancient Hebrews?

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Atlanteans :P

IIRC Someone suggested they were Hittites.

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Or Vikings?

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I thought they were the Phoenicians?

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More than likely they were rogue Έλληνες (Ellines)....Hellenes or;

Among the Sea Peoples identified in Egyptian records are the Ekwesh, possibly a group of Bronze Age Greeks (Achaeans); the Denyen, identified by some with the Greek Danaoi and by others with the Israelite tribe of Dan; the Teresh, i.e. the Tyrrhenians, possibly ancestors of the Etruscans; Lukka, an Anatolian people of the Aegean who may have given their name to the region of Lycia and the Lycian language; the Sherden, possibly Sardinians or people of Sardis; the Shekelesh, identified possibly with the Italic people called Siculi (from Sicily); the Peleset, whose name is generally believed to refer to the Philistines, who might have come from Crete with the Tekrur (possibly Greek Teucrians) and who together were the only major member of the Sea Peoples thought to have migrated permanently to the Levant.[2] Evidence for migrations of whole peoples are not found on any of the contemporary inscriptions, but versions of a "migration hypothesis" represent the widely held interpretation among scholars of the ancient Near East.[8]

The easy answer is that they were young me who wanted young men things (adventure, money, power, women and land) and they found it all over the Near East.

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Atlanteans :P

IIRC Someone suggested they were Hittites.

Perhaps this would be of some use. http://ancienthistor...f/seapeople.htm

Another source:

Who Were the Sea People?

https://www.saudiara....sea.people.htm

Or Vikings?

I thought they were the Phoenicians?

More than likely they were rogue Έλληνες (Ellines)....Hellenes or;

Among the Sea Peoples identified in Egyptian records are the Ekwesh, possibly a group of Bronze Age Greeks (Achaeans); the Denyen, identified by some with the Greek Danaoi and by others with the Israelite tribe of Dan; the Teresh, i.e. the Tyrrhenians, possibly ancestors of the Etruscans; Lukka, an Anatolian people of the Aegean who may have given their name to the region of Lycia and the Lycian language; the Sherden, possibly Sardinians or people of Sardis; the Shekelesh, identified possibly with the Italic people called Siculi (from Sicily); the Peleset, whose name is generally believed to refer to the Philistines, who might have come from Crete with the Tekrur (possibly Greek Teucrians) and who together were the only major member of the Sea Peoples thought to have migrated permanently to the Levant.[2] Evidence for migrations of whole peoples are not found on any of the contemporary inscriptions, but versions of a "migration hypothesis" represent the widely held interpretation among scholars of the ancient Near East.[8]

The easy answer is that they were young me who wanted young men things (adventure, money, power, women and land) and they found it all over the Near East.

And I was told it were the Vry-zyn from the North Sea :-)

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For one, I don't think the Peleset were the Philistines, but the Pelasgians - however the Philistines may have been Pelasgians also.

Pelasgians to me, means people of the palaces - royalty. Then I check things about the people in question to see if it could be appropriate...

Upon becoming king, Pelasgus

Pelasgus built the citadel Larissa of Argos

According to Fragment 76 of Hellanicus's Phoronis, from Pelasgus and his wife Menippe came a line of kings: Phrastōr, Amyntōr, Teutamides and Nasas (kings of Pelasgiotis in Thessaly)

He states that the Pelasgians of Athens were called "Cranai" (Cranaus being the 2nd KING of Athens).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pelasgians

Mycenaeans had Linear B an IE language, so there is no reason imo to suspect they spoke a different language to the Pelasgians imo (also since Pelasgians are meant to be the inhabitants of Greece in the Bronze Age ie; Mycenaeans) and that their name is possibly an IE word. I never heard that Pelasgian (from Thessaly) Achilles couldn't understand Agamemnon's speech. If anything, they spoke an Aeolic dialect that was just a different form from the later Greek, which had been influenced by different people.

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Or Vikings?

Good grief...

With time machines?

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I thought they were the Phoenicians?

Not likely, as I understand it.

As pointed out in the articles linked by IBelieveWhatIWant and aka CAT, the Sea Peoples seem to have mostly originated in Anatolia (what's now Asian Turkey). It's possible that they included people from both sides of the Trojan War, though as it's hard to date that war precisely it's impossible to be sure.

We do know that shortly before the Sea Peoples attacked Egypt the Hittite Kingdom (also in Anatolia) was overrun, along with the city of Ugarit in what's now northern Syria. It's fairly likely the Sea Peoples were responsible, and it's possible that the ranks of the Sea Peoples were swollen with unemployed Hittite soldiers afterwards.

By contrast, I understand the Phoenicians were bypassed by the Sea Peoples, who headed on south to attack Egypt.

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And I was told it were the Vry-zyn from the North Sea :-)

That would be Vry-zyn, pronounced freezin'? I probably would be too if I was from the North Sea...

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Posted (edited)

Adding to that the meaning of Larissa, the town of Pelasgian Thessaly.

Could be based in the word for 'learn'. Learning centres were basically towns, where people could learn things they couldn't being isolated outside main towns and cities. The Library of Alexandria for example is a good example of a city based in the concept of learning. Also Achilles (and others) is known for being 'learned' by Chiron, of Mt Pelion.

learn (v.) Old English leornian "to get knowledge, be cultivated, study, read, think about," from Proto-Germanic *liznojan (cognates: Old Frisian lernia, Middle Dutch leeren, Dutch leren, Old High German lernen, German lernen "to learn," Gothic lais "I know"), with a base sense of "to follow or find the track," from PIE *leis- (1) "track, furrow." Related to German Gleis "track," and to Old English læst "sole of the foot" (see last (n.))

http://www.etymonlin....php?term=learn

I also think many mythical characters hide their etymologies within their names based on things they are known for.

Peleus lived in Larissa. The name Peleus is another word for "sole of the foot" - based in another IE etymology PEL = skin (ie; phallis)

Note also in LEARN the root is "to follow or find the track" and in English "sole of the foot".

There is also another Pelias who wanted to take over Thessaly. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jason

Pelias (Aeson's half-brother) was very power-hungry, and he wished to gain dominion over all of Thessaly. (He's AESon's half brother - læst "sole of the foot" )

I don't have to tell you the story of Jason and the sandal do I...?

When Jason entered Iolcus (modern-day city of Volos), he was announced as a man wearing one sandal. Where do you wear a sandal? On the sole of your foot, where else..?

I'd even go so far to say that the same etymology is responsible for Greek aster - STAR (LAEST) "to follow a path"

Van Gorp, you might find this interesting: Gleis "track," - beach-combing requires walking back and forth along the beach - glisas (glass/amber)

Edited by The Puzzler

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Good grief...

With time machines?

Possibly they meant the men looked like Bronze Age Scandinavians, who wore horned helmets like Vikings, the same Bronze Age Scandinavians who were the Viking ancestors.

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Good grief...

With time machines?

VLKA FENRYKA!!

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Posted (edited)

Now that I know that etymology, I actually think the Basque word for meadow LARRE, which I originally thought Larissa might have been named, is actually from the same IE etymology. You walk through a meadow, just like Persephone was, when taken by Hades. The walking track you follow = meadow, because it is grassland, it's where you walk the track, the path you follow.

Getting off track I know, but it all goes back to the Peleset being Pelasgians.

Edited by The Puzzler

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Interesting stuff. Part of the mystery for me is the difference between their impact on the waning Bronze Age and the lack of evidence/information they left behind. Thanks for all the input.

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If the Mycenaeans were Pelasgians and Pelasgians were the Peleset, we have this:

In Book 14 of the

Odyssey

, Odysseus recalls:there in the Nile De

lta we moored out ships of war… swept away by their own reckless

fury, the crew went berserk

they promptly began to plunder the lush Egyptian farms,

dragged off the woman and children, killed the men…the entire town came streaming

down at the break of day, filling the river plain with chariots, ranks of infantry, and the

gleam of bronze…

Droves of my men they hacked down with swords, led off the rest

alive, to labour for them as slaves…there I lingered for seven years. (Homer, Book 14,

lines 292-321)The description of the invasion certai

nly sounds similar enough to Ramesses III‟s

description of the battle at Medinet Habu to warrant further consideration. Similarly, the mention of theAchaeans being carried off alive as slaves is resonant when compared to the carvings of Egyptians leading the defeated Sea Peoples with bound hands off into slavery.

http://www.academia.edu/2955384/Troy_in_the_Late_Bronze_Age_and_Its_Possible_Connections_with_the_Sea_Peoples

Because I actually think the Sea Peoples were a relic of a memory that became the Mycenaeans attacking Troy and the Nile Delta.

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Interesting stuff. Part of the mystery for me is the difference between their impact on the waning Bronze Age and the lack of evidence/information they left behind. Thanks for all the input.

Fair point. I suppose they're not overly mentioned by societies other than Egypt because they wiped them out (i.e. Hittites). Perhaps they left little of their own legacy because they were more a migrating army (with their families on the hoof) than a traditional tribal society for whom soldiers were the elite. Therefore there may have been few poets and artisans among their number.

Keep in mind, though, that the Philistines have been fairly clearly identified as their descendents, and I understand there's a reasonably clear linguistic link between them and Mycenean Greeks.

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Fair point. I suppose they're not overly mentioned by societies other than Egypt because they wiped them out (i.e. Hittites). Perhaps they left little of their own legacy because they were more a migrating army (with their families on the hoof) than a traditional tribal society for whom soldiers were the elite. Therefore there may have been few poets and artisans among their number.

Keep in mind, though, that the Philistines have been fairly clearly identified as their descendents, and I understand there's a reasonably clear linguistic link between them and Mycenean Greeks.

Yes, and also that they were Pelasgians.

Since 1822, scholars have connected the Biblical Philistines with the Egyptian "Peleset" inscriptions,[3] and since 1873, they have both been connected with the Aegean "Pelasgians".[4][5] Whilst the evidence for these connections is etymological and has been disputed,[5][6] this identification is held by the majority of egyptologists and biblical archaeologists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistines

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Posted (edited)

Reviewing some leftover Old Testament studies notes, I was reminded of the 'Sea People' who invaded Egypt around 1177. However, my notes don't remind me of who they were and whence they came. Any UMers know about this culture that had a brief, but apparently deep, effect on Egypt and possibly the ancient Hebrews?

To give you an idea where several of these people may have come from, and why they went on the move, read this thread I once started:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=249093

.

Edited by Abramelin
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Posted (edited)

Reviewing some leftover Old Testament studies notes, I was reminded of the 'Sea People' who invaded Egypt around 1177. However, my notes don't remind me of who they were and whence they came. Any UMers know about this culture that had a brief, but apparently deep, effect on Egypt and possibly the ancient Hebrews?

hiya

are you looking for the exact "cities" of origin or is there something on these that you don't like in general?

Episode-12-Invasion-of-the-Sea-People.png

journal.pone.0020232.g001.png

Invasion_Routes.jpg

bacollapse936.jpg

seapeoples.jpg

5seapeople.jpg

if you are one like those above that includes the destruction of hisarlik as part of the seapeople invasion then:

Excavation in Troy VIIb has revealed the introduction, after a destruction of the city by fire, of a new population using a course ware apparently of Central European origin, and this may reasonably held to mark the passage of the Phrygians and Mysians.

The Cambridge Ancient History

dartmouth.edu

On the basis of the Iliad and Odyssey specifically and of Greek tradition in general, the destroyers of Troy VIIa have traditionally been identified as Mycenaean Greeks from the central and southern Greek Mainland. However, there is nothing in the archaeological evidence to identify precisely who the attackers were. Indeed, there is at least some archaeological evidence which suggests that the attackers were not Mycenaeans. For example, are the Mainland Greeks likely to have destroyed Troy at more or less the same time as their own centers in the Peloponnese were being destroyed? It is possible to answer this question in the affirmative if the Peloponnesian destructions were due to natural disasters (e.g. earthquakes, as most recently argued in the cases of Tiryns and Mycenae) or if they were a direct result of the absence of large numbers of potential defenders who were away besieging Troy, although both scenarios do seem to stretch coincidence to its limits. Perhaps more significant is the fact that the “Coarse Ware” of Troy VIIb1, a class of pottery which makes its first appearance at Troy immediately after the destruction of Troy VIIa, is very closely related to the handmade and burnished pottery which appears in more or less contemporary contexts of the early LH IIIC period at a number of sites on the Greek Mainland as well as in Cyprus, southern Italy, and Sicily. In none of these areas does this pottery have local antecedents, and it has been argued by Deger-Jalkotzy that such pottery is to be derived ultimately from ceramic traditions at home in the Middle Danube area of central Europe. The “Coarse Ware” of Troy VIIb1 may be interpreted as identifying the sackers of Troy VIIa, a population group who crossed the Hellespont at the end of their journey from the Middle Danube through Rumania to Turkish Thrace. Similar groups may have been involved with the sacking of numerous major Mycenaean sites in the Peloponnese at the end of the LH IIIB period.

now checkout this "newly discovered" place that is 25% bigger than rome:

A massive Late Bronze Age fortified settlement in Central Europe has been the subject of a new and exemplary investigation by excavation and site survey. This prehistoric enclosure, nearly 6km across, had a complex development, dense occupation and signs of destruction by fire. It can hardly be other than a capital city playing a role in the determinant struggles of its day—weighty and far reaching events of the European continent now being chronicled by archaeology...

Dating

A complete bowl recovered at the exterior foot of the phase B rampart can be dated to

the Cruceni-Belegis IIA phase (equivalent to Hallstatt A1) (Figure 8). The Cruceni-Belegis culture is part of the south-east European Urnfield culture, with a distribution similar to the preceding Vatina group in Oltenia, Banat and eastern Hungary. In terms of relative chronology, it is situated between the Middle Bronze Age Vatina culture and the Early Iron Age Gornea-Kalakaca culture. The absolute chronology places the group between the fifteenth and eleventh centuries BC (Szentmiklosi2009).Three samples for radiocarbon dating were taken from burnt beams belonging to the later construction. The results provide a clear indication of construction between 1450 and

1200 cal BC (Table 1 and Figure 9) combined to give a construction date of 1393–1314 (at 68.2% probability), and 1411–1270 (at 95.4%) (Figure 10).

Cornesti-Iarcuri — a Bronze Age town in the Romanian Banat?

googlemap

it is huge. note the date? and its location in relation to what was being discussed above at cambridge and dartmouth etc?

there are a few newly discovered huge "cities" up there where the arrows on the seapeople maps originate.

peace

Edited by cern
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Could be, but your article doesn't give a date.

Only "late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age."

That range puts it significantly after the invasion of the Sea Peoples in Egypt, according to Ramesses III.

The bronze age and iron age timelines differ in different areas, of course. The range given is assumed to be Romanian, and that puts the site sometime after 1000 BC, more likely around 800 BC, if what was said in the article is correct.

Maybe there's earlier material there that is yet to be located.

Harte

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Could be, but your article doesn't give a date.

Only "late Bronze Age/Early Iron Age."

That range puts it significantly after the invasion of the Sea Peoples in Egypt, according to Ramesses III.

The bronze age and iron age timelines differ in different areas, of course. The range given is assumed to be Romanian, and that puts the site sometime after 1000 BC, more likely around 800 BC, if what was said in the article is correct.

Maybe there's earlier material there that is yet to be located.

Harte

Harte, perhaps this will help:

Dating

A complete bowl recovered at the exterior foot of the phase B rampart can be dated to the Cruceni-Belegis IIA phase (equivalent to Hallstatt A1) (Figure 8). The Cruceni-Belegis culture is part of the south-east European Urnfield culture, with a distribution similar to the preceding Vatina group in Oltenia, Banat and eastern Hungary. In terms of relative chronology, it is situated between the Middle Bronze Age Vatina culture and the Early Iron Age Gornea-Kalakaca culture. The absolute chronology places the group between the fifteenth and eleventh centuries BC (Szentmiklosi 2009). Three samples for radiocarbon dating were taken from burnt beams belonging to the later construction. The results provide a clear indication of construction between 1450 and 1200 cal BC (Table 1 and Figure 9) combined to give a construction date of 1393-1314 (at 68.2% probability), and 1411-1270 (at 95.4%) (Figure 10).

https://www.academia.edu/1255464/Cornesti-Iarcuri_a_Bronze_Age_town_in_the_Romanian_Banat

cormac

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hiya

are you looking for the exact "cities" of origin or is there something on these that you don't like in general?

Episode-12-Invasion-of-the-Sea-People.png

journal.pone.0020232.g001.png

Invasion_Routes.jpg

bacollapse936.jpg

seapeoples.jpg

5seapeople.jpg

if you are one like those above that includes the destruction of hisarlik as part of the seapeople invasion then:

The Cambridge Ancient History

dartmouth.edu

now checkout this "newly discovered" place that is 25% bigger than rome:

Cornesti-Iarcuri — a Bronze Age town in the Romanian Banat?

googlemap

it is huge. note the date? and its location in relation to what was being discussed above at cambridge and dartmouth etc?

there are a few newly discovered huge "cities" up there where the arrows on the seapeople maps originate.

peace

Thanks for all the good information--more than I thought I'd get! -Dewitz

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