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aka CAT

At what odds, a miracle?

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How rare need a ‘gift horse’ be to be unearthly?

How singular must an ability be to be preternatural?

Were the impossible to happen,

would any amount of evidence convince you of the fact?--

What nearly impossible long shot must one overcome to prove a miracle?

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Things beyond understanding do not mean miraculous, preter, or supernatural to me.

Just incomprehensible from our perspective.

If it exists, it's natural, even if I or we, don't understand it.

So a miracle equals something beyond our ken of understanding.

Our light switches and cameras would be miracles in the 13th century, (or devil's toys depending where you landed).

Degrees of extremity for me, do not belie mystery, just unknown/unknowable.

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To some a miracle is coincidence.

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True enough, in the end perception is reality.

I lean toward synchronicity, with a physics twist, all things being connected...

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Every child born was once considered a miracle?

Proving a miracle should be simple should they exist. For instance If you were to send me a quiet-made recording generated from your PC, and uploaded it for me to open up here. Then If that recording was to alter this end (altering it likewise at your end.. adding noise that was not pre-recorded by you.. from an unknown signal) Would that be considered a miracle?

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Unexplained healing does happen from time to time, but I am certain the cause is natural, nothing to do with any deity!

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Posted (edited)

It is not about the nature or number or rarity of an event which makes it a miracle (well not a divine miracle anyway ) For it to be a miracle of god there has to be evidence of god's intent and purpose and action . So if god tells a person dying of terminal cancer "Tomorrow you will wake up and the cancer will have disappeared completely and it will never return BECAUSE I have healed you." AND THEN this all happens, that is a miracle. IF god tells you that tomorrow you will receive a hundred dollars needed to buy food for your family and you do, then that too is a miracle.

Non divine miracles are often named as such, just because of the odds against them happening butt hey are not really miracles. For example if a person woke up one day healed of cancer, that by itself is not a miracle; or if a person finds $100 on the street just when they need it for food, then that is not a miracle.

But if god tells you, "Pull off the road now because two trucks are overtaking on that blind corner, and if you go on you will be killed" Then that is a miracle if you stop and then watch two trucks come round the bend taking up all the road and doing 50 miles an hour

If you are locked in a gaol cell, awaiting execution, and god says, "Try the door. You will find it unlocked and the guards asleep. Walk down the road to the house with a green door. Knock and you will find someone to help you" then that IS a miracle if it all proves true.

Edited by Mr Walker
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Let's amputate all your limbs...Oh wait..Just your legs.Then pray to Jesus to regrow your legs.

Miracle!

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Posted (edited)

What nearly impossible long shot must one overcome to prove a miracle?

That somebody will win the lottery is not a miracle. It is set up so that somebody will win it. The miracle occurs if I win it.

Some on here aren't going to like that answer. That is because it is probabilistic. If I play the lottery enough times, I'll win it. That's Des Cartes' Law, or the Law of Regression. Given enough replications, if an outcome is possible it will happen. And that means that no "miracle" based on probability is a miracle at all.

So what is a miracle? If an outcome that can't happen, does, a miracle has occurred. Either that, or there's something about that outcome that we don't understand.

Simple: a miracle is something that can't happen.

Doug

Edited by Doug1o29
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That somebody will win the lottery is not a miracle. It is set up so that somebody will win it. The miracle occurs if I win it.

Some on here aren't going to like that answer. That is because it is probabilistic. If I play the lottery enough times, I'll win it. That's Des Cartes' Law, or the Law of Regression. Given enough replications, if an outcome is possible it will happen. And that means that no "miracle" based on probability is a miracle at all.

So what is a miracle? If an outcome that can't happen, does, a miracle has occurred. Either that, or there's something about that outcome that we don't understand.

Simple: a miracle is something that can't happen.

Doug

If we accepted that definition then there would be no miracles. :innocent: I tend to agree, in one sense. Nothing is miraculous, all has a 'natural explanation" but some natural explanations remain beyond our ken Those we call miracles. (But then I include 'god" as a part of nature and the natural world)

How would you feel about winning the lottery, and getting the money, when you had never entered a ticket and no one else had done it for you either?

Is that something that can't happen, and if it did would it be a miracle?

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Theologically speaking no "longness" of odds defines something as a miracle. An event may be a trillion-trillion to one occurence, but unless it is ascribed to a deity it is not a miracle.

The only thing that defines something as a miracle, is its assignation of cause being the work of a deity.

So, a miracle is only something one believes to be a miracle, there is no mathematics behind it.

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If we accepted that definition then there would be no miracles. :innocent: I tend to agree, in one sense. Nothing is miraculous, all has a 'natural explanation" but some natural explanations remain beyond our ken Those we call miracles. (But then I include 'god" as a part of nature and the natural world)

How would you feel about winning the lottery, and getting the money, when you had never entered a ticket and no one else had done it for you either?

Is that something that can't happen, and if it did would it be a miracle?

There are two kinds of events. Those that are physically possible, and those that aren't. Physical events happen with varying frequency. Some happen many times a day, or a second, even. Like chemical reactions. Some happen only at extreme intervals - like the impact of a planet-killing asteroid.

Given that an event is possible and given enough time, then it will actually happen. That is not a miracle.

If an event occurs at extremely infrequent intervals and we put a time-limit on when it can happen, like this year, or this century, and it happens, that might be called a miracle. In this case, "miracle" is defined by probability. So we define "miracle" as a probability limit. If it happens more-frequently, it is not a miracle, but if less-frequently, then it is. That's sort of arbitrary. The important thing to remember is that the limit must be set before-the-fact. Afterward, the event happened or it didn't and the definition of miracle does not come into play.

What would I say if I won the lottery without having bought a ticket. I'd say there was a natural chain of events with which I was unfamiliar.

Doug

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I was with a Muslim in his Truck on the Highway in a Snowstorm.I was going to tell him to slow down, but he does not listen to me because I am a couple years younger than him (culture thing).The Truck slid, hit the Guardrail and bounced back on the Road.

To him this was a miracle.To me this is the result of him not taking my advice of putting weight in the bed over the wheel wells, and the State's Transportation Dept putting a Guardrail where it needs to be.

There seems to be a correlation to ignorance and miracle acceptance.This is in belief systems where people are conditioned that this line of thinking is a pious virtue.

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You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.

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Posted (edited)

There are two kinds of events. Those that are physically possible, and those that aren't. Physical events happen with varying frequency. Some happen many times a day, or a second, even. Like chemical reactions. Some happen only at extreme intervals - like the impact of a planet-killing asteroid.

Given that an event is possible and given enough time, then it will actually happen. That is not a miracle.

If an event occurs at extremely infrequent intervals and we put a time-limit on when it can happen, like this year, or this century, and it happens, that might be called a miracle. In this case, "miracle" is defined by probability. So we define "miracle" as a probability limit. If it happens more-frequently, it is not a miracle, but if less-frequently, then it is. That's sort of arbitrary. The important thing to remember is that the limit must be set before-the-fact. Afterward, the event happened or it didn't and the definition of miracle does not come into play.

What would I say if I won the lottery without having bought a ticket. I'd say there was a natural chain of events with which I was unfamiliar.

Doug

I tend to agree with you but what you are saying is that there is nothing which is impossible IE if something happens, then it is possible, no matter how unexpected it is.

Thus for you there is no such thing as a miracle. A rock rolling up hill would have some rational reason for its behaviour, Again in one way I agree although I can empathise when coincidence is so stretched statistically that people think it requires a miracle BUT I know that certain types of miracle are real. That is where an intelligent being (from god to human) uses ability or technology to alter what would otherwise naturally be. Thus penicillin is a miracle drug and so is a polio vaccination. In the case of god his miracles are the application of a science and technology beyond our present understanding and thus also (as far as we are able to ascertain) a miracle.

Edited by Mr Walker

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You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.

Actually you could, and you could win it even if no one bought you a ticket. All it would require would be some form of computer glitch. I have my name on a list to receive winnings from any state lottery I enter. I once won a few hundred dollars without any ticket purchased by me or anyone else for me, because of a computer error which assigned those winnings to my account. That wasn't a miracle but for me it would count as a miracle if god had said to me, "Tomorrow I am going to use the lottery system to send you that 200 dollars you need to buy food."

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I think if you consider how large the universe is, and how events and people needed to fall into place for all of time for you to even be here, asking this question, is a miracle in itself.

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Posted (edited)

I think if you consider how large the universe is, and how events and people needed to fall into place for all of time for you to even be here, asking this question, is a miracle in itself.

Indeed. Perhaps the great underlying 'miracle' is that there is something rather than nothing.

Edited by Marcus Aurelius
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Posted (edited)

To whom it may concern,

Initially, I wondered what might convince a nonbeliever of the

Supernatural.

A sample definition of miracle, if even to amend, would be useful,

granted that I need consider a nondenominational variation of what

I once regarded standard.

Additional replies shall be forthcoming.

0:-) MGby'all.

Things beyond understanding do not mean miraculous, preter, or supernatural to me.

Just incomprehensible from our perspective.

If it exists, it's natural, even if I or we, don't understand it.

So a miracle equals something beyond our ken of understanding.

Our light switches and cameras would be miracles in the 13th century, (or devil's toys depending where you landed).

Degrees of extremity for me, do not belie mystery, just unknown/unknowable.

Whereas the occurrence itself is often beyond our understanding,

miracles’ being acts of God implies them meaningful.

To some a miracle is coincidence.

A definition of miracle pends.

True enough, in the end perception is reality.

I lean toward synchronicity, with a physics twist, all things being connected...

What one perceives as reality does shape his experience of life. That life doesn’t happen in a vacuum makes considerable things concurrent. Beyond

that there is, at least, one force (God) unrecognized by physics, the discipline along with what remains undiscovered fascinates me as well.

Every child born was once considered a miracle?

Proving a miracle should be simple should they exist. For instance If you were to send me a quiet-made recording generated from your PC, and uploaded it for me to open up here. Then If that recording was to alter this end (altering it likewise at your end.. adding noise that was not pre-recorded by you.. from an unknown signal) Would that be considered a miracle?

Things usual (e.g. births) or, otherwise, frivolous aren't generally regarded acts of God.

Unexplained healing does happen from time to time, but I am certain the cause is natural, nothing to do with any deity!

You imply complexities about which many specialists are less certain.

It is not about the nature or number or rarity of an event which makes it a miracle (well not a divine miracle anyway ) For it to be a miracle of god there has to be evidence of god's intent and purpose and action . So if god tells a person dying of terminal cancer "Tomorrow you will wake up and the cancer will have disappeared completely and it will never return BECAUSE I have healed you." AND THEN this all happens, that is a miracle. IF god tells you that tomorrow you will receive a hundred dollars needed to buy food for your family and you do, then that too is a miracle.

Non divine miracles are often named as such, just because of the odds against them happening butt hey are not really miracles. For example if a person woke up one day healed of cancer, that by itself is not a miracle; or if a person finds $100 on the street just when they need it for food, then that is not a miracle.

But if god tells you, "Pull off the road now because two trucks are overtaking on that blind corner, and if you go on you will be killed" Then that is a miracle if you stop and then watch two trucks come round the bend taking up all the road and doing 50 miles an hour

If you are locked in a gaol cell, awaiting execution, and god says, "Try the door. You will find it unlocked and the guards asleep. Walk down the road to the house with a green door. Knock and you will find someone to help you" then that IS a miracle if it all proves true.

I agree that miracles, acts of God, are meant to “evidence”/confirm/affirm His Will in order that,

through Him, we might best serve others in fulfillment of self. However, had persons prayed

for the outcomes that you instanced above, they would be signs of God’s consent.

Let's amputate all your limbs...Oh wait..Just your legs.Then pray to Jesus to regrow your legs.

Miracle!

Less spectacularly, God gave me a debilitating disease in order that faith

might keep it in remission long enough for me to fulfill a pair of purposes.

So long as I serve His will, I'll trust in Providence.

That somebody will win the lottery is not a miracle. It is set up so that somebody will win it. The miracle occurs if I win it.

Some on here aren't going to like that answer. That is because it is probabilistic. If I play the lottery enough times, I'll win it. That's Des Cartes' Law, or the Law of Regression. Given enough replications, if an outcome is possible it will happen. And that means that no "miracle" based on probability is a miracle at all.

So what is a miracle? If an outcome that can't happen, does, a miracle has occurred. Either that, or there's something about that outcome that we don't understand.

Simple: a miracle is something that can't happen.

Doug

Until it happens to you? Or, maybe even then, as some people are too

blind to even recognize the many miracles they have been benefitted.

If we accepted that definition then there would be no miracles. :innocent: I tend to agree, in one sense. Nothing is miraculous, all has a 'natural explanation" but some natural explanations remain beyond our ken Those we call miracles. (But then I include 'god" as a part of nature and the natural world)

How would you feel about winning the lottery, and getting the money, when you had never entered a ticket and no one else had done it for you either?

Is that something that can't happen, and if it did would it be a miracle?

In deed, while there will always be people who fancy themselves capable of explaining the inexplicable. Edited by aka CAT
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Posted (edited)

Theologically speaking no "longness" of odds defines something as a miracle. An event may be a trillion-trillion to one occurence, but unless it is ascribed to a deity it is not a miracle.

The only thing that defines something as a miracle, is its assignation of cause being the work of a deity.

So, a miracle is only something one believes to be a miracle, there is no mathematics behind it.

Correct, but the remoteness of an unusual happening tends to get

the attention of persons who take seemingly little things for granted.

There are two kinds of events. Those that are physically possible, and those that aren't. Physical events happen with varying frequency. Some happen many times a day, or a second, even. Like chemical reactions. Some happen only at extreme intervals - like the impact of a planet-killing asteroid.

Given that an event is possible and given enough time, then it will actually happen. That is not a miracle.

If an event occurs at extremely infrequent intervals and we put a time-limit on when it can happen, like this year, or this century, and it happens, that might be called a miracle. In this case, "miracle" is defined by probability. So we define "miracle" as a probability limit. If it happens more-frequently, it is not a miracle, but if less-frequently, then it is. That's sort of arbitrary. The important thing to remember is that the limit must be set before-the-fact. Afterward, the event happened or it didn't and the definition of miracle does not come into play.

What would I say if I won the lottery without having bought a ticket. I'd say there was a natural chain of events with which I was unfamiliar.

Doug

I rib you to suggest there might likewise be two types of people.

I was with a Muslim in his Truck on the Highway in a Snowstorm.I was going to tell him to slow down, but he does not listen to me because I am a couple years younger than him (culture thing).The Truck slid, hit the Guardrail and bounced back on the Road.

To him this was a miracle.To me this is the result of him not taking my advice of putting weight in the bed over the wheel wells, and the State's Transportation Dept putting a Guardrail where it needs to be.

There seems to be a correlation to ignorance and miracle acceptance.This is in belief systems where people are conditioned that this line of thinking is a pious virtue.

There is a correlation between nonacceptance of spirit and people's thus limiting themselves.

You can't win the lottery if you don't buy a ticket.

Mr. Walker did (see top of page 2 herein).

I tend to agree with you [Doug] but what you are saying is that there is nothing which is impossible IE if something happens, then it is possible, no matter how unexpected it is.

Thus for you there is no such thing as a miracle. A rock rolling up hill would have some rational reason for its behaviour, Again in one way I agree although I can empathise when coincidence is so stretched statistically that people think it requires a miracle BUT I know that certain types of miracle are real. That is where an intelligent being (from god to human) uses ability or technology to alter what would otherwise naturally be. Thus penicillin is a miracle drug and so is a polio vaccination. In the case of god his miracles are the application of a science and technology beyond our present understanding and thus also (as far as we are able to ascertain) a miracle.

My signature affirms the gist of what you assert.

:-D Welcome, Nelias and Marcus, to the beauty of wonderment!

Edited by aka CAT

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John Littlewood coined "Littlewood's Law", which posits that a miracle, defined as an exceptional event occurring with a one-in-a-million probability Assuming the average person is awake 8 hours a day and they witness an event every second of their waking life, in 35 days, they will have witnessed a million events, statistically making a miracle for any given person a once-a-month rate of occurrence.

Miracles aren't that unusual. We have entire TV series dedicated to reporting them based on species alone. Heck, based on population alone, the U.S. should have upwards of 300 miracles occurring every day.

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Posted (edited)

John Littlewood coined "Littlewood's Law", which posits that a miracle, defined as an exceptional event occurring with a one-in-a-million probability Assuming the average person is awake 8 hours a day and they witness an event every second of their waking life, in 35 days, they will have witnessed a million events, statistically making a miracle for any given person a once-a-month rate of occurrence.

Miracles aren't that unusual. We have entire TV series dedicated to reporting them based on species alone. Heck, based on population alone, the U.S. should have upwards of 300 miracles occurring every day.

True. People's habitually giving thanks not only makes them happier overall

but lets them more readily both recognize and rely upon God's influence in their lives.

'Davros' et al re: post #19

I misspoke myself.

What God temporarily permits

isn't what He wills permanent,

i.e. His not being the cause of ills

let's us rely upon Him for wellness.

Edited by aka CAT

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Not really relevant to what I wrote, but then, that is characteristic of religion in general and judeo-christianity specifically.

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Theologically speaking no "longness" of odds defines something as a miracle. An event may be a trillion-trillion to one occurence, but unless it is ascribed to a deity it is not a miracle.

The only thing that defines something as a miracle, is its assignation of cause being the work of a deity.

So, a miracle is only something one believes to be a miracle, there is no mathematics behind it.

That is certainly true for divine miracles but I am not certain that the definition of miracle precludes non divine events. We call things miraculous when they occur randomly and unexpectedly, especially to our benefit, even if we are atheists. Eg if a sailor is washed of a yacht by one wave and a minute later washed up on board by a second, most would accept that as miraculous albeit not divine. Otherwise, I agree with your comments.

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To whom it may concern,

Initially, I wondered what might convince a nonbeliever of the

Supernatural.

A sample definition of miracle, if even to amend, would be useful,

granted that I need consider a nondenominational variation of what

I once regarded standard.

Additional replies shall be forthcoming.

I agree that miracles, acts of God, are meant to “evidence”/confirm/affirm His Will in order that,

through Him, we might best serve others in fulfillment of self. However, had persons prayed

for the outcomes that you instanced above, they would be signs of God’s consent.

.

One might interpret them that way, but that does not make it so because one might not interpret them that way with equal validity. The only certainty IMO of a true divine miracle is where god clearly and plainly expresses his intent to act in a certain way to bring about certain outcomes and then and then physically acts to bring about the result he has promised, OR provides you with information, ability/power, and guidance which allows YOU to bring about the desired outcome.

This might seem a limiting definition, but it also creates a greater certainty of something being a true miracle. Some might think such forecast and intentful intervention is very rare ,but it happens every day in the modern world to many humans, and always has.

here is the difference if I go and buy a lottery ticket and pray to god to win , it is not a miracle if I do But if god speaks to me and says, "Take out a ticket in Saturday's lottery with these numbers; 3 13 19 27 11 22 and you will win first prize. " and I do so, then to me at least that is evidence of divine purpose and intervention. BTW god would also tell me how to use and distribute the money, because he doesn't just give us assets to make us rich. A person with god has all the riches they require.

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