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and then

THIS is Hamas

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http://palwatch.org/main.aspx?fi=157&doc_id=12019

If they are not using these civilians to protect their firing positions then why is their presence in a KNOWN killzone necessary?

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Israel is being clever here, they leaflet droppings was done well in order to get people out of the way, unfortunately the Palestinians have nowhere to go in the Gaza strip. Now with Israel targeting civilians homes, which they have done before and had inquests and apologized. However you have to questions the Israelis intelligence which hasn't been accurate over the last 20+ years or so.

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Israel is being clever here, they leaflet droppings was done well in order to get people out of the way, unfortunately the Palestinians have nowhere to go in the Gaza strip. Now with Israel targeting civilians homes, which they have done before and had inquests and apologized. However you have to questions the Israelis intelligence which hasn't been accurate over the last 20+ years or so.

The 17000 or so who have already moved away would seem to indicate you are incorrect on this. I have been listening to i24 news from Israel and a truce is being called for midnight central time US. About 6 am for GB.
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Truly ?

A PROPER truce, or just a pause whillst HAMAS tries to smuggle in replacement rockets ?

Oh well... fingers crossed.

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The IDF uses human shields too. So that's not a valid reason to pick sides here either.

By rabbi decree, "openly":

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/leading-rabbi-encourages-idf-soldiers-to-use-palestinian-human-shields-1.320311

Gotta put it in quotes though when Israel does it:

http://www.haaretz.com/news/two-idf-soldiers-charged-with-using-9-year-old-human-shield-in-gaza-war-1.264652

We can go on and on.

http://mondoweiss.net/2013/04/israeli-palestinian-shield.html

http://www.btselem.org/human_shields/20060720_human_shields_in_beit_hanun

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3387356,00.html

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-11462635

More double standard hypocrisy from the Zionist crowd where Israel gets away with it but the Palestinians are uniquely not allowed.

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The IDF uses human shields too. So that's not a valid reason to pick sides here either.

By rabbi decree, "openly":

http://www.haaretz.c...hields-1.320311

Gotta put it in quotes though when Israel does it:

http://www.haaretz.c...za-war-1.264652

We can go on and on.

http://mondoweiss.ne...ian-shield.html

http://www.btselem.o...s_in_beit_hanun

http://www.ynetnews....3387356,00.html

http://www.bbc.com/n...e-east-11462635

More double standard hypocrisy from the Zionist crowd where Israel gets away with it but the Palestinians are uniquely not allowed.

Now THERE's a really pertinent comparison to what the Hamas are doing .... pffft....
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End the siege and give Gazans the liberty they need to affect political reform. When you're under blockade or occupation by a foreign power, you don't have that either. Maybe after Israel take its Zionist boot off their necks, they'll vote for a more ZIonist-approved regime.

But not before. We're long past done repeating the same thing over and over again and like insane shills, expecting a different result. It's either genocide or a reversal of the terrorist Zionist policies on Gaza and the West Bank.

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http://palwatch.org/...57&doc_id=12019

If they are not using these civilians to protect their firing positions then why is their presence in a KNOWN killzone necessary?

The last time the Pals ran out of their homes to get away from a war zone, the thieving zionists stole their homes.

Or so you zoinists say

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End the siege and give Gazans the liberty they need to affect political reform.

How, precisely, do we give the Gazans the abovementioned liberty ? They are currently under military occupation by HAMAS, a violent theocratic totalitarian regime that will not permit political reform. After all, by their own constitution, their politics are rooted in scripture, which cannot be changed.

Or are you suggesting we invade Gaza in order to liberate it's citizenship from HAMAS ?

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How, precisely, do we give the Gazans the abovementioned liberty ? They are currently under military occupation by HAMAS, a violent theocratic totalitarian regime that will not permit political reform. After all, by their own constitution, their politics are rooted in scripture, which cannot be changed.

Or are you suggesting we invade Gaza in order to liberate it's citizenship from HAMAS ?

The ideal outline would be:

Step 1: Get the Israelis out of Palestine.

Step 2: Send in global peacekeepers for a mission that will probably last 100 yearsg. Some degree of disarmament of Israel and the Palestinian territories is probably necessary, and a mutual guarantee of non-violence.

Step 3: Establish Palestine's statehood.

I think we need to turn diplomacy up to full for all the neighbors and stay in constant communication with everyone and try our best to be honest arbiters of a win-win proposition for everyone. There's still the issue of contiguity, Jerusalem, redrawing the lines on the map, and so much more.

The Charter again, ho boy. :wacko:

You seem to keep repeating the same tired old circle of objections in every discussion about Israel no matter what the topic is. No, the Charter is no reason to pick sides either. Israel's govt has zero tolerance for the Arab state west of the Jordan River and everything including the map should tell you that. Yes, including the words in the damned Charter.

And now you're slipping in this "rooted in scripture" crap. Plenty of things are rooted in scripture, bud. You don't get to point your finger and tell anyone in the world what's allowed and what isn't.

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The ideal outline would be:

Step 1: Get the Israelis out of Palestine.

By which I assume you mean the "occupied territories" ?

Step 2: Send in global peacekeepers for a mission that will probably last 100 yearsg. Some degree of disarmament of Israel and the Palestinian territories is probably necessary, and a mutual guarantee of non-violence.

Step 3: Establish Palestine's statehood.

I think we need to turn diplomacy up to full for all the neighbors and stay in constant communication with everyone and try our best to be honest arbiters of a win-win proposition for everyone. There's still the issue of contiguity, Jerusalem, redrawing the lines on the map, and so much more.

A two-state solution imposed by armed peacekeepers, with authority to USE their weapons ? Yes... I could see that working.... sort of.

Unfortunately, HAMAS and the PLO do not WANT a two-state solution; they want the destruction of Israel. So firstly those two groups would have to be marginalised politically. Even then, they would mobilise the Palestinian population against the peacekeepers. Those peacekeepers better have thick skins, because within months every human rights organisation on the planet will be calling them baby-killers and murderers... because they WILL find themselves using live ammunition against "unarmed" Palestinian teenagers.

The Charter again, ho boy. :wacko:

You seem to keep repeating the same tired old circle of objections in every discussion about Israel no matter what the topic is. No, the Charter is no reason to pick sides either. Israel's govt has zero tolerance for the Arab state west of the Jordan River and everything including the map should tell you that. Yes, including the words in the damned Charter.

And now you're slipping in this "rooted in scripture" crap. Plenty of things are rooted in scripture, bud. You don't get to point your finger and tell anyone in the world what's allowed and what isn't.

You havn't READ the HAMAS covenant (charter), have you ?

You criticise Israel, without even having the courtesy to understand the goals and motivations of their opposition.

And it IS rooted in scripture, as you would have known if you had bothered to read it. Permit me to quote four articles.

Article 1

The Islamic Resistance Movement: The Movement's programme is Islam. From it, it draws its ideas, ways of thinking and understanding of the universe, life and man. It resorts to it for judgement in all its conduct, and it is inspired by it for guidance of its steps.

Article 2

The Islamic Resistance Movement is one of the wings of Moslem Brotherhood in Palestine. Moslem Brotherhood Movement is a universal organization which constitutes the largest Islamic movement in modern times. It is characterised by its deep understanding, accurate comprehension and its complete embrace of all Islamic concepts of all aspects of life, culture, creed, politics, economics, education, society, justice and judgement, the spreading of Islam, education, art, information, science of the occult and conversion to Islam.

Article 5

Time extent of the Islamic Resistance Movement: By adopting Islam as its way of life, the Movement goes back to the time of the birth of the Islamic message, of the righteous ancestor, for Allah is its target, the Prophet is its example and the Koran is its constitution....

Article 8

Allah is its target, the Prophet is its model, the Koran its constitution: Jihad is its path and death for the sake of Allah is the loftiest of its wishes.

Sufficiently scripture-bound for you, Yamato ?

Oh, and whill'st we're on the topic of HAMAS and their covenant, lets see what they have to say about Palestine.

Article 11

The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that. Palestine is an Islamic Waqf land consecrated for Moslem generations until Judgement Day. This being so, who could claim to have the right to represent Moslem generations till Judgement Day?

This is the law governing the land of Palestine in the Islamic Sharia (law) and the same goes for any land the Moslems have conquered by force, because during the times of (Islamic) conquests, the Moslems consecrated these lands to Moslem generations till the Day of Judgement.

Oh DEAR... doesn't leave much room for compromise, does it ? Well, who knows... perhaps the UN will change their minds ? Lets see what they have to say about that !

Article 14

Initiatives, and so-called peaceful solutions and international conferences, are in contradiction to the principles of the Islamic Resistance Movement......

Oh.. well.. thats THAT then.

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The more I see events in the Middle East the more I become persuaded that the culture there is such that they should not be allowed to govern themselves, for their own good and that of the rest of the world. Maybe in a few centuries they will grow up, but just look at the suffering they impose on themselves in Gaza and Iraq and so on.

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By which I assume you mean the "occupied territories" ?

A two-state solution imposed by armed peacekeepers, with authority to USE their weapons ? Yes... I could see that working.... sort of.

Unfortunately, HAMAS and the PLO do not WANT a two-state solution; they want the destruction of Israel. So firstly those two groups would have to be marginalised politically. Even then, they would mobilise the Palestinian population against the peacekeepers. Those peacekeepers better have thick skins, because within months every human rights organisation on the planet will be calling them baby-killers and murderers... because they WILL find themselves using live ammunition against "unarmed" Palestinian teenagers.

You havn't READ the HAMAS covenant (charter), have you ?

You criticise Israel, without even having the courtesy to understand the goals and motivations of their opposition.

And it IS rooted in scripture, as you would have known if you had bothered to read it. Permit me to quote four articles.

Sufficiently scripture-bound for you, Yamato ?

Oh, and whill'st we're on the topic of HAMAS and their covenant, lets see what they have to say about Palestine.

Oh DEAR... doesn't leave much room for compromise, does it ? Well, who knows... perhaps the UN will change their minds ? Lets see what they have to say about that !

Oh.. well.. thats THAT then.

Punishing millions of innocent people over words some unknown bureaucrat wrote down is the most titanically asinine solution to a problem I've ever heard of.

But when the ruling party in the Israeli government says No Palestine in its charter, that's fine with you because it's not rooted in scripture? What is it rooted in? Evil? Greed? Bloodlust? Racism? What's so holier than thou about Israel's intolerance and terror?

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Posted (edited)

Punishing millions of innocent people over words some unknown bureaucrat wrote down is the most titanically asinine solution to a problem I've ever heard of.

Like Resolution 181? How does giving land solve the problem?

But when the ruling party in the Israeli government says No Palestine in its charter, that's fine with you because it's not rooted in scripture? What is it rooted in? Evil? Greed? Bloodlust? Racism? What's so holier than thou about Israel's intolerance and terror?

Still playing the Ahmadinejad Gambit? It's not "No Palestine", it's protecting itself from enemies. Can you put your hatred aside for one minute? Have you ever thought this out? What do you think will happen if Resolution 181 or even 242 is *forced* onto both parties? Do you have any inkling of what is in store? You just want to keep the misery going on millions of people, Jew and Palestinian alike so you can spew your hatred of Israel.

Edited by RavenHawk

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Posted (edited)

Punishing millions of innocent people over words some unknown bureaucrat wrote down is the most titanically asinine solution to a problem I've ever heard of.

I'm not punishing them. HAMAS is. Based on its operating principles, as enshrined in its covenant. Why are you so resistant to recognising what a truly evil organisation HAMAS is ? Why do you keep up this invidious comparison with the Israeli government(s) ?

But when the ruling party in the Israeli government says No Palestine in its charter, that's fine with you because it's not rooted in scripture? What is it rooted in? Evil? Greed? Bloodlust? Racism? What's so holier than thou about Israel's intolerance and terror?

Do they REALLY say that ? If they do, then that is very bad, and would certainly colour my opinions (already somewhat low) of the Likud party (and its allies). Can you show me the current charter that says "No Palestine" ?

Edited by RoofGardener
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I'm not punishing them. HAMAS is. Based on its operating principles, as enshrined in its covenant. Why are you so resistant to recognising what a truly evil organisation HAMAS is ? Why do you keep up this invidious comparison with the Israeli government(s) ?

Yeah as if Gazans were never punished before Hamas. You have a short sighted view of the conflict, actually believing that it began when Hamas was elected in Gaza. It's a been a few generations longer than that.

Do they REALLY say that ? If they do, then that is very bad, and would certainly colour my opinions (already somewhat low) of the Likud party (and its allies). Can you show me the current charter that says "No Palestine" ?

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=266075&st=90#entry5241163

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Posted (edited)

What the ?

Yamato, HAMAS won the Palestine National Authority elections in 2006. They became the majority in that parliament, and represented (in parliamentary terms) the aspiration and intentions of the Palestinian People throughout Gaza and the West Bank.

That was 7 years ago. HAMAS is HERE AND NOW. It reflects the WILL of the Palestinian People, moreso than the old PLO, and the old FATAH party.

You can grizzle about the 'old days' my friend, but that is what they are - old and (politically) irrelevant.

If we are talking about the modern Palestinian aspiration, then we must talk about HAMAS.

As an allegory: It's 1933, and the National Socialists are in the ascendancy. Why are you still fretting over the Weimar Republic ?

Oh - and thanks for that link; it was both illuminating and depressing.

Of course, like the Weimar Republic, it is also a bit irrelevant, as Likud have since re-written their Platform, and moderated their position in regards Palestinian sovereignty.

Edited by RoofGardener
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What the ?

Yamato, HAMAS won the Palestine National Authority elections in 2006. They became the majority in that parliament, and represented (in parliamentary terms) the aspiration and intentions of the Palestinian People throughout Gaza and the West Bank.

That was 7 years ago. HAMAS is HERE AND NOW. It reflects the WILL of the Palestinian People, moreso than the old PLO, and the old FATAH party.

You can grizzle about the 'old days' my friend, but that is what they are - old and (politically) irrelevant.

If we are talking about the modern Palestinian aspiration, then we must talk about HAMAS.

As an allegory: It's 1933, and the National Socialists are in the ascendancy. Why are you still fretting over the Weimar Republic ?

Oh - and thanks for that link; it was both illuminating and depressing.

Of course, like the Weimar Republic, it is also a bit irrelevant, as Likud have since re-written their Platform, and moderated their position in regards Palestinian sovereignty.

You're stuck in 2006 like it's not 2014.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_National_Authority#2007.E2.80.93present

They haven't moderated anything. They've introduced a siege on Gaza of such asinine proportions they've kept candy and potato chips out of Gaza because they're scared of salt and sugar rockets.

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You're stuck in 2006 like it's not 2014.

http://en.wikipedia....E2.80.93present

They haven't moderated anything. They've introduced a siege on Gaza of such asinine proportions they've kept candy and potato chips out of Gaza because they're scared of salt and sugar rockets.

Actually they're probably trying to alleviate some of the obesity in the deprived population there :)
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Actually they're probably trying to alleviate some of the obesity in the deprived population there :)

Netanyahucare, there's service with a smile.

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You're stuck in 2006 like it's not 2014.

http://en.wikipedia....E2.80.93present

ROFL... I've been rattling YOUR cage about that for the last few posts, in case you hadn't noticed.

OK Yamato... welcome to 2014. I hope you had a pleasant journey ?

They haven't moderated anything. They've introduced a siege on Gaza of such asinine proportions they've kept candy and potato chips out of Gaza because they're scared of salt and sugar rockets.

Yes, precisely because HAMAS probably COULD make rockets out of sugar and salt, or HAVE.

Meh... sounds more like a bureaucratic cockup to me.

Of course, we are STILL in the Yamato TimeWarp, as the abovementioned potato chip embargo (along with a bunch of other foodstuffs, including candy and cookies) was lifted back in 2010.

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http://palwatch.org/...57&doc_id=12019

If they are not using these civilians to protect their firing positions then why is their presence in a KNOWN killzone necessary?

Sickening and illuminating...

There is a huge propaganda offensive taking place at the moment...with Hamas giving it all they've got..?

I expect they are very pleased when children die and/or are wounded ...when women die and/or are wounded...

The more the better from their point of view....?

The death or wounding of every so-called martyr....willing or otherwise...a victory in their Islamic eyes...

A step further....

To what...?

Borders are ever changing....Israelis will never give up Israel again...not now...not ever ...

Hamas is just keeping the pressure up IMO...waiting for...hoping for...the final confrontation...

Dangerous times ahead..?

.

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More precisely, this is Hamas :

gaza-children-bodies.jpg

While Israel is killing people to make its population safer, in Israel towns we can witness what is close or equal to ' the normal life '.

In every part of occupied Palestine, especially in Gaza, life is everything but normal.

Hamas is also all that fertile land in Israel buffer zone, main reason why there is big food shortage. Hamas i also every one of those people who died in last days and also, Hamas was that chief of police who's family was murdered in attacks. Hamas is many of those UN resolutions that are not followed. ... ...

And today, Hamas is what your side made it to be and among other things - Hamas hate Israel and they hate it even more after they bury more civilians. Hamas is, what it seems when you check Israel medias - they are described as parasites who feed on their own people and it seems that if there was no Hamas, there would be no problems!?

Except... Hamas wasn't always there - it was made by actions from the other side.

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Posted (edited)

War and Religion are the stupidest things humanity ever created. They all lead to destruction in either mind, body, or both. I feel so sorry for our kind. I can't help but think that maybe we do deserve extinction. In all the time that's passed nothing has change, not really. Sure we might possess deeper understanding of many things. But we haven't evolved past our own primal instincts. We've just created more efficient means of killing each others. God won't kill us, we'll do that ourselves.

And if someone tells you to leave your home for your safety you do it. If someone tells you to return home after you've been warned, don't.

Edited by XenoFish
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More precisely, this is Hamas :

gaza-children-bodies.jpg

While Israel is killing people to make its population safer, in Israel towns we can witness what is close or equal to ' the normal life '.

That should be....While Israel is defending itself and at the same time trying to minimise civilian deaths..

And re the picture above....

Isn't this precisely what Hamas want...? (see OP link)

Exactly what they are sending the rockets over for...?....provocation for propaganda purposes..

And then they parade their martyrs to the world.

IMO....the above picture shows 'Hamas' displaying their sacrificed babies....

I find it sickening...

.

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