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supervike

America's forbidden discussion...

133 posts in this topic

Posted (edited)

http://news.yahoo.co...MZT0ToAoZHQtDMD

This reported claims at the end of his report, that the anti-cop sentiments heard echoing throughout his community are directly related to young black men being raised without fathers.

Now, I don't necessarily disagree with the TV stations decision to fire him, it probably wasn't the right time nor place to opine on it.

But, is it a conversation we can have publically? Or is this one of those things that have to be discussed only amongst close freinds, in secret, as to not be branded 'racist'?

If you think there isn't a serious problem in the Black community, specifically with black males, then I believe you are hiding your head in the sand. It has absolutely nothing to do with the color of their skin, but completely about the culture that exists.

It's my contention that this discussion will not be allowed. (I don't mean here in this forum, but across America).

Thoughts?

Edited by supervike
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Well, it has been known that there was a lack of role models for certain segments of the population, and not only for blacks. There were even TV shows in the 80s and 90s to fill the void (without much success I might add).

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That reporter has a point but the truth is black people in the USA are treated with less respect and are targeted by police much more often than whites, asians, or hispanics. I've witnessed this first hand more than once.

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That reporter has a point but the truth is black people in the USA are treated with less respect and are targeted by police much more often than whites, asians, or hispanics. I've witnessed this first hand more than once.

Yes, I have witnessed this as well. I certainly understand the mistrust for the police, but don't you think it's a bit of a catch-22?

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That reporter has a point but the truth is black people in the USA are treated with less respect and are targeted by police much more often than whites, asians, or hispanics. I've witnessed this first hand more than once.

I agree on that, but if a segment of the population does not know what behavior helps them against police abuses they tend to get abused more often. And that has something to do with role models. The father generally is the authoritarian in the family, as a rule, a lack of a father deprives you of the ability to deal with authority figures.

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The rules of this site say that no topic related to "racism" will be posted. I expect this thread to be locked very soon. This topic can only instigate race and hate speech.

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Posted (edited)

I'm not sure it's all due to lack of fathers, mostly because there are a lot of kids of every kind of meatsuit that get raised without fathers that turn out great.

That said, I also think this is an issue that in general does not get openly discussed very often, and when it is discussed it tends to turn ugly fairly quickly. Which is a crying shame, because there are for sure problems that could use help and resolution.

Edited by rashore
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The rules of this site say that no topic related to "racism" will be posted. I expect this thread to be locked very soon. This topic can only instigate race and hate speech.

That is the exact point I'm trying to make.

I'm not advocating hate speech at all.

My point is that race, regardless of intentions, is a forbidden subject in our society. That is a shame. How can we ever move past racial issues if we are not allowed to discuss it?

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I dont think the reporter should of been suspended.

Im not exactly sure if I would agree with the lack of fathers being the reason for the anti cop sentiment.

But yeah I do think its taboo to talk about something like this which is not good because taboos just get in the way of change.

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touche', supervike, touche'

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The rules of this site say that no topic related to "racism" will be posted. I expect this thread to be locked very soon. This topic can only instigate race and hate speech.

Why does it have to be racism? In my opinion, suggesting that children raised without a father turn out poorly promotes sexism more- the notion that a single mother is incapable of raising a child decently without a father present.

But really, viewing the subject with the angle of racism or sexism is rather unnecessary and is what promotes the breakdown of the subject in general. It does seem to be difficult for many to discuss it without those angles, which is unfortunate.

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I'm not sure it's all due to lack of fathers, mostly because there are a lot of kids of every kind of meatsuit that get raised without fathers that turn out great.

That said, I also think this is an issue that in general does not get openly discussed very often, and when it is discussed it tends to turn ugly fairly quickly. Which is a crying shame, because there are for sure problems that could use help and resolution.

It is not just the lack of fathers, it is the lack of uncles, neighbors and whatever else could be a positive role model. In some neighborhoods the only role model is some pimp or drug dealer. And that certainly does not improve the relationship to any authority.

And that does not only apply to blacks.

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The rules of this site say that no topic related to "racism" will be posted. I expect this thread to be locked very soon. This topic can only instigate race and hate speech.

I disagree. This isn't about racism. This is more of a culture issue as it is being discussed here and can be backed up by statistics gathered by the US census.
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This is a complex one that has a lot of emotions tied up into it. Both sides have a lot of valid points. And looking at raw numbers is well like fighting the Vietnam War as if it were a statistical study that could be won with sheer paperwork.

According to the BJS non-Hispanic blacks accounted for 39.4% of the prison and jail population in 2009, with whites 34.2%, and Hispanics 20.6%. The incarceration rate of black males was over 6 times higher than that of white males, with a rate of 4,749 per 100,000 US residents.[17][18][19]

Some studies had argued for smaller racial disparities in violent crime in recent times. However, a 2011 study which examined the racial disparities in violent crime and incarceration from 1980 and 2008 found little difference for black share of violent offending. Racial imbalances between arrest rates and sentencing have caused some to question the disparities.

According to the US Department of Justice, blacks accounted for 52.5% of homicide offenders from 1980 to 2008, with whites 45.3% and Native Americans and Asians 2.2%. The offending rate for blacks was almost 8 times higher than whites, and the victim rate 6 times higher. Most murders were intraracial, with 84% of white homicide victims murdered by whites, and 93% of black victims murdered by blacks.[32][33]

Leading to

Social disorganization theory

Further information: Social disorganization theory

Social disorganization theory proposes that high rates of crime are largely the result of a heterogeneous and impoverished social ecology.[66] Proponents of the theory point to the process of urban decay as a major contributing factor to the breakdown of healthy urban communities which would normally curb the spread of many forms of criminal behavior. The diversity of minority cultures present in poverty-stricken neighborhoods prevents the formation of strong social bonds and leaves inhabitants uninterested in maintaining positive community relationships. This has been observed to increase the likelihood of crime in certain urban areas, which can lead to increased policing and a further breakdown of familial structures as a result of arrests, which, in turn, precipitates more crime. Social disorganization theory has been instrumental in establishing the notion that stable, culturally homogeneous communities have lower rates of delinquency and crime regardless of race.[67]

And Supervike is correct....this is a very explosive and dangerous feeling subject. Even speaking to well educated and enlightened critical thinking people on this world has my stomach boiling with stress.

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Posted (edited)

The issue, as far as I see it, is more an "inner-city cultural" problem, rather than one of race. In any society, those who are most deprived will generally occupy this "inner-city culture", so it depends on which group of people constitute the "most deprived" segment of the population. In certain areas of some cities, it might not be black people, but Irish, Polish, etc.

The culture tends to foster disrespect for authority from the start, which then spirals into issues such as father absentee-ism which just exacerbates the situation.

While in the US, black people may constitute the largest group of "most deprived", to state this as a "black people problem" probably is a bit racist.

Edited by Leonardo
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Posted (edited)

While in the US, black people may constitute the largest group of "most deprived", to state this as a "black people problem" probably is a bit racist.

Yep, I think that is a fair assessment.

It is far more a cultural/poverty problem...

Edited by supervike

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this is a forbidden discussion amongst americans?

really?

maybe americans need to open up and talk more honestly, sincerely, and candidly, about social issues

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this is a forbidden discussion amongst americans?

really?

maybe americans need to open up and talk more honestly, sincerely, and candidly, about social issues

It's due to the perception that what is being said is that black children don't know who their fathers are. That is a real stereotype that goes way back to when black families were routinley broken up by those that owned them as slaves.

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this is a forbidden discussion amongst americans?

really?

maybe americans need to open up and talk more honestly, sincerely, and candidly, about social issues

Yes, it really is. But, it does skirt a fine line between racial stereotyping and actual concern. I think that is why we as a society seem to want to avoid it. It easily can get you dismissed as a bigot.

I think it happens to be one of the biggest social issues, especially in inner cities. For decades all that is ever done is to throw money at the problem without trying to understand it.

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Posted (edited)

Yes, it really is. But, it does skirt a fine line between racial stereotyping and actual concern. I think that is why we as a society seem to want to avoid it. It easily can get you dismissed as a bigot.

I think it happens to be one of the biggest social issues, especially in inner cities. For decades all that is ever done is to throw money at the problem without trying to understand it.

I also think we want to avoid it because no one really knows how to fix it.

Like really how in the world do we go about it? Changing a culture isnt easy.

Edited by spartan max2
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Like really how in the world do we go about it? Changing a culture isnt easy.

Admitting there is a problem may be the first step.

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The biggest problem I see in black culture is that gangster-rappers are considered role models by far too many. This isn't restricted to blacks, but much larger portions of their population views them that way than the other races.

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I think it is a little more complex than JUST their being raised without fathers.

I am aware of many white people who do not like the police, so race cannot be the only factor in the equation.

Using the drug prohibition as an example, we have pretty close to a full century now of the drug prohibition. In the last 50 years hardly a week goes by where some cop somewhere gets involved in the drug trade. Stealing from the evidence room, shaking down dealers for personal gain, taking bribes and much more.

It is this corruption that we saw during alcohol prohibition, and it is the reason for the existence of Law Enforcement Against Prohibition (LEAP). In short, the harmful policy of prohibition makes cops look bad, and makes the less sophisticated thinkers HATE cops.

"Protect & Serve" has become very much a joke.

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It's due to the perception that what is being said is that black children don't know who their fathers are. That is a real stereotype that goes way back to when black families were routinley broken up by those that owned them as slaves.

but it plainly isn't referring to that - it's referring to the fact that not having a male influence is detrimental to black youth. i would agree with that statement, and it in no way is a slur or negative jab at black people. it's a sad situation that they are victims of.

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The biggest problem I see in black culture is that gangster-rappers are considered role models by far too many. This isn't restricted to blacks, but much larger portions of their population views them that way than the other races.

But that is not a "Black" problem either. Whites don't have a problem with idealizing gangsters (Bonnie & Clyde, Pretty Boy Floyd, etc) or people offending against the law (Popcorn Sutton, Jesse James, Billly the Kid ) either. And that also applies to Latinos (just the names and music style changes).

It is a question of what is socially acceptable, and what is socially acceptable is learned in the most immediate environment during childhood.

And don't get me wrong, I liked Popcorn even before he became a celebrity.

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